Conductive weapons and critical hits

[Deadkitten]

So I'm having a bit of a debate with someone on another forum about wether critting with a conductive weapon also causes a damaging SLA to also crit if it was channeled.

Iknow that the various threads on this are all over the place, so if someone can sum things up with any relevant evidence it would appreciate it greatly.

[Quintain]

We had this same discussion with the Kaigun Cryptic (from Dreamscarred Press) and crits with firearms and the disrupt pattern being channeled through there as well.

What we decided is that it does indeed crit, but while it would use the weapon's crit range, it would use it's own crit multiplyer (x2).

[Zenogu]

I was just thinking about Spell-storing weapons with Attack Roll based spells recently, and if those apply as well.

Can everyone be a pseudo-Magus?

[Quintain]

Spoiler:

Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

Not everyone. You have to have spellcasting ability of some sort to use it, according to the description.

[Zenogu]

Right, but then you can hand the weapon to anyone.

[Quintain]

True. It's kinda gimpy handing it back and forth to reload it.

[Zenogu]

More tedious than a crossbow for sure. But you have to stop and "reload" the Spell-Storing weapon regardless of what class you play. Usually a between-fights sort of thing to do.

I'm sort of surprised no one at my table has scored a critical hit with such a weapon...

[Avoron]

FAQ wrote:

Bonus Dice: Do bonus dice from Channel Smite or spells such as elemental touch or flame arrow multiply on a critical hit?

No. Core Rulebook page 179 states in the Multiplying Damage section: "Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."
The general rule is the only dice you multiply on a critical hit are the actual dice from the basic weapon (d8 for a longsword, 2d6 for a greatsword, and so on).

[Quintain]

This isn't "extra damage dice". Extra damage dice are things like rogues sneak attack.

[Zenogu]

Quintain wrote:

This isn't "extra damage dice". Extra damage dice are things like rogues sneak attack.

Correct. This is an actual Attack Spell. Otherwise, you would never be able to critically hit with a spell using Spellstrike.

I can't find any wording in it to suggest you can or can't. But I have an awful hard time telling my players "Yes, you crit him in the neck with a spear, but your Corrosive Touch is not doubled."

[kinevon]

So, here is how it would appear to fall under the rules and, possibly, that FAQ.

Something that would need an attack roll to hit the target on its own can crit when used through Spellstrike, Conductive, Spell Storing, etc.

Something that would normally have a saving throw instead would not have an option to critical. Channel Smite, for instance, since it uses an effect that is normally AoE, and still allows the save for half, cannot crit.

Unfortunately, this still leaves a few oddball possibilities. Can you use Channel Ray on your Channel Smite, so that it could crit now, since Channel Ray uses a ranged touch attack against an unwilling target?

[Zenogu]

kinevon wrote:

Unfortunately, this still leaves a few oddball possibilities. Can you use Channel Ray on your Channel Smite, so that it could crit now, since Channel Ray uses a ranged touch attack against an unwilling target?

Hmm. Corner case here, huh?

If I had to guess on this, it's probably just something that follows all rules that apply to it. If it has an attack roll, it can crit/fumble. And has a save for half? Follow that rule too. You may actually come across a critical hit for double damage, and they make their save. So it's just... normal? Haha.

The only other instance of this sort of thing I know of is the Disintegrate spell. An attack/ray spell that deals hit point damage and allows a saving throw for less damage. If my above assumptions were correct, then a Critical Hit Disintegrate with a Successful Fortitude Save would deal 10d6 damage.

Anyway, I'm straying further and further away from the topic. I think Quintain has the right of it, offering a x2 multiplier for a Conductive Weapon.

[Quintain]

Hmm. I wonder if it is RAI that having a spell channeled through a weapon and being able to crit is an ability that is reserved for those with the spellstrike or similiar class features.

Since there is no mention of channeling a spell through a weapon and having it be able to crit outside of spellstrike, and there is that FAQ, then I would have to conclude that in order to actually crit with a spell through a weapon, you would need to be a magus or similiar class features.

Spoiler:

Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

So it would seem that our FAQ applies to all weapon-channeled spells/abilities that are performed by anyone without spellstrike, but criting with weapon-channeled spells is reserved for the Magus.

However, the faq is for the core rulebook, which came prior to Ultimate Magic and the advent of the Magus class.

Quote:

Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. If a spell causes ability damage or drain (see Special Abilities), the damage or drain is doubled on a critical hit.

However, Kinevon, presuming that Conductive and Spell storing mimic spellstrike (it is only a 2nd level class ability, after all), then I would say that Channel Ray channeled through conductive would indeed crit, but would also allow for a saving throw for half damage if used to damage.

A FAQ might be in order:

"Do weapon enchantments such as spell storing and conductive give the ability of a spell/spell-like ability or supernatural ability used according to the description of the weapon enchantment allow the spell/spell-like ability or supernatural ability to crit?"