Okay I started this thread to get the logistical chatter of the upcoming bouts away from the M/C Disparity dialogue. Since this was really my aim with that thread after all. :)
Rules for the specific 1v1 match between my created fighter, and Jiggy's created Wizard
Rules
You make a Fighter7, I'll make a Wizard7.
• No multiclassing.
• CRB only (which, remember, also means no traits, so I can't even get metamagic reducers).
• Just yourself (no Leadership, no purchased critters, but also no summons).
• Standard WBL, spent as you see fit.
• Prior to the event, we're both considered to know it's coming up and can prepare as much as we want, as long as we don't interact (I can't scry on you, you can't have people spy on me, and so forth).
• We both start in "waiting rooms" where we both have three rounds to drink potions/cast buffs. We are then teleported onto the floor of a colosseum. The floor is a 100ft-diameter circle.
• When we're teleported in, we're 60 feet apart, with the center of the arena being halfway between us.
• We then roll initiative and go from there.
Hit points will be max HD at 1st level and average (rounded up) thereafter. So you get 10/6/6/6/6/6/6 and I get 6/4/4/4/4/4/4. Stats are standard 15 point buy.
Do we want to follow the standard percentages here for wealth, or do we want to assume that our characters have been bread and honed for this particular type of fight, and therefore will have items specialized for this kind of combat?
Dot and preparing stuff.
That sounds like Hunger Games. But anyway, if it's a circular floor and we're guaranteed to be opposite each other, what's the point of the randomly-selected spots?
Purely flavorful (plus I love giving the d12 some love), it doesn't provide anything really important mechanically speaking, as you had already said characters start exactly 60' opposite each other. Also, yeah it does kind of sound like Hunger Games, except that our characters aren't just wearing a commoner's outfit and all of their WBL isn't sitting in between them in a cornucopia. ;) :P
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I think we need to ditch those suggested percentages. It already points out that a wizard will need a different arrangement, so applying that paragraph would actually only limit you, the fighter. Might as well chuck the whole thing so you're not screwed.
Goddity wrote:
I'll play in the tournament because I want to see what will happen. And to those of you who say it is pointless because casters win: think of it as an opportunity to prove yourselves right and watch epic combat. Or, you never know, you could be wrong.
Fair rules would be (Open to debate of course):
1. There would be several tournaments of different levels and party sizes for proper results.
2. The Caster Team would only be allowed to pick from classes that have full 9 level casting and prestige classes that boost casting.
3. The Melee Team must only choose from classes (or archetypes) that do not provide any spell casting. If a class like paladin grants spell casting at 4th, then you may take up to 3 levels of it. Prestige classes you qualify for may be taken freely.
4. Full WBL for both teams. Assume you can buy any item in any book, but no crafting "special" items.
5. The arena should be a circle with a 200 foot radius. Each team starts at opposite ends.
6. Neither team will see it's opponents character sheets before battle.
7. A neutral bystander/judge will be on hand to arbitrate disputes and monitor character sheets.
8. You win when everyone on your opponents team is dead, or outside the arena by choice. If you do end up outside the arena, you have one turn to get back inside it.
9. The arenas walls are considered to be indestructible.
10. Another plane counts as outside the arena.I had many of these same thoughts last night whilst pondering as well. I don't know that you need to make it 200 feet, but I wouldn't argue with that if that were the choice. Definitely need to have a third party arbiter GM who approves the character sheets, and stands as a referee for rules decisions. Letting the opponent see the character ahead of time is obviously detrimentally dumb because it tells them what to prepare in those three rounds of taking potions, etc.
I think I'll place some other rules, just to better define the details.
Some that came to mind are the following (different from the listed):
1) Standard WBL. 1 crafting feat increase it by 25%, 2 by 50%, 3 or more have no other effect. (remember that Master Craftsman is a feat, and its limits allow to get an additional 50% on WBL).
2) The arena is sphere with a radius of 100 foot. The lower hemisphere is filled with earth/dirt/stone and the higher is air.
3) The teams are at least 60 foot distant from each other, every member can "spawn" wherever possible.
4) If the sum of the remaining teammates can't free a character from a crippling condition (such as flesh to stone or death), that character is removed from the arena. Its belonging vanishes.
I wanted to get these quotes in here because they should form the basis of every players' agreement on the rules of character creation, and the arena.
I think we need to ditch those suggested percentages. It already points out that a wizard will need a different arrangement, so applying that paragraph would actually only limit you, the fighter. Might as well chuck the whole thing so you're not screwed.
Wow I was hoping you'd say that. :) Honestly, I feel an epic loss coming on, but I'll still have fun creating the character, and seeing what happens, even if it is just a one round affair. I have so many different ideas for characters right now I need to just pick a type and go with it to fruition. Obviously our completed characters should just be PMed to ElMustacho, correct? I probably won't be done with that until the middle of next week honestly.
I got the Alias (ElMustacho).
I got the Alias (ElMustacho).
Beautiful!!!
PM me the builds before posting them. After I confirm they are legal, the fight will start and the builds will be revealed at the same time.
Shall we consider the chance of a surprise round?
Shall we consider the chance of a surprise round?Nope. (If we did, I'd just make sure my wizard was a Diviner and screw MendedWall even more.)
I'm starting to really understand the whole casters are better, argument. :) ;) :P
Edit: Also, yes, we should almost roll initiative from these aliases, and then reveal the characters upon them declaring their first actions. What about the three rounds in the antechamber? Are we declaring those actions publicly, or just to CMDDM? (That's a sweet avatar acronym btw)
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The way I was originally picturing it was like this:
Once the Gameplay thread is created and we're ready to rock, we each post (as our character alias) to state inside a spoiler tag what our three rounds of actions are. We both have to be good and not peek at each others' spoilers or aliases.
Then, the GM makes a post describing our appearance into the arena and telling us what we see and so forth, rolls initiative for both of us, and announces who has the first move.
Then, off we go!
By the way, have you done PbP before?
Thinking twice, I'd rather say that you don't post at all your builds until the fight isn't over. Let's pretend you both failed your Knowledge (local) check, and you're just acting on what your character can perceive.
From this, we could even consider the case of hiding the modifiers of the rolls. I mean, for example Player1 declares an attack, he rolls a d20 and I apply the modifiers, hiding the total result. Then I compare it to the AC of the opponent and if it's higher it's a hit, otherwise it isn't. Basically I treat each of you as you were facing an unknown monster.
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Thinking twice, I'd rather say that you don't post at all your builds until the fight isn't over. Let's pretend you both failed your Knowledge (local) check, and you're just acting on what your character can perceive.
From this, we could even consider the case of hiding the modifiers of the rolls. I mean, for example Player1 declares an attack, he rolls a d20 and I apply the modifiers, hiding the total result. Then I compare it to the AC of the opponent and if it's higher it's a hit, otherwise it isn't. Basically I treat each of you as you were facing an unknown monster.
We could always post our actions and rolls in a spoiler, then have you narrate what the other person actually perceives.
So the posting would go:
Me
GM
MW
GM
Me
GM
MW
GM
And so forth.
That's ok for me.
So the posting would go:
Me
GM
MW
GM
Me
GM
MW
GMAnd so forth.
Except after MW it will say things like "stabs his stabbity stabber in the squishy caster's guts."
Then CMDDM would do the + to attack, figure if it actually hits, and add in any bonus damage.
Am I right in my understanding of that?
This preparation process is even fun for me. :P
Yeah. That way you can roll for critical threats in the same post if you get any.
Yeah. That way you can roll for critical threats in the same post if you get any.
Ah, okay, so CMDDM would let us know if it's a hit, and then I could edit the post and add in a critical threat role, if necessary.
I like it. It adds a whole level of mystery, and then once my fighter coup de grace's Jiggy's caster we can reveal our characters.
I like it a lot.
Edit: I'll be incommunicado for quite some time, real life stuff. I'll check back in whenever I can.
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Might I offer this archetype as a possible choice for the fighter?
That's actually really cool.
However, this is a CRB-only game.
In other news, the wizard is turning out to be quicker than anticipated to make; "Arhena the Fabulous" is almost completed.
Just checking in. The first round is the 1v1 Jiggys wizard vs Mendeds fighter, right? So I don't need to worry about a character for that.
This leads to another important question. For valid results, we should try different games with different levels, available books, and team sizes. What's the second round going to look like?
I'd say level 11, 3x3 teams, all books. At level 11 the martials get the 3rd attack, and half of the casters get lv 6 spells.
I'd say level 11, 3x3 teams, all books. At level 11 the martials get the 3rd attack, and half of the casters get lv 6 spells.
I'd actually prefer to see a slightly slower scaffolding of levels and books. My preference would be level 9 characters, 3v3, and open it up to either all the "advanced" books, or the "ultimate books." Then the next step would be to open it up to everything paizo, and the final step would be everything including all 3pp. That would just be my preference though. I want to go with whatever the mass consensus is.
@Jiggy, I'm glad your character creation has gone easily, my fighter takes different shapes every time I think about her. I'm going to let it all stew over the weekend, and hopefully have some solid stuff by Tuesday afternoon next week.
Also, I was thinking in terms of characters, there shouldn't be any problem with us creating an alias, and just putting the ability scores in, should there? Or might even the make up of the point buy give something away? I guess, realistically, for one of my fighter concepts, it might... Should we wait even on the ability score reveal?
Oh!!! I had another thought. We should make a rule that you cannot ready an action in the final round in the antechamber. At that point readying an action becomes a way to gain initiative even if you lost. That would be my preference at least. My thought is if we allowed ready actions at the end of the antechamber rounds, both people would ready an action, and they might both trigger each other, and then you're in some weird initiative loop.
Sound good?
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Also, I was thinking in terms of characters, there shouldn't be any problem with us creating an alias, and just putting the ability scores in, should there? Or might even the make up of the point buy give something away? I guess, realistically, for one of my fighter concepts, it might... Should we wait even on the ability score reveal?
I guess you're new to PbP?
Standard procedure is to create an alias and put your whole character sheet into the profile. As long as we both promise not to click on each others' names, we won't see each others' stuff.
As for the readied action thing, I'm fine with disallowing it. Besides, we're not rolling initiative until we teleport into the arena anyway.
Also, I was thinking in terms of characters, there shouldn't be any problem with us creating an alias, and just putting the ability scores in, should there? Or might even the make up of the point buy give something away? I guess, realistically, for one of my fighter concepts, it might... Should we wait even on the ability score reveal?I guess you're new to PbP?
Standard procedure is to create an alias and put your whole character sheet into the profile. As long as we both promise not to click on each others' names, we won't see each others' stuff.
As for the readied action thing, I'm fine with disallowing it. Besides, we're not rolling initiative until we teleport into the arena anyway.
Oh, no, I have a couple PbP characters. My assumption was that we weren't doing that, because of the temptation to peek? I thought we were just going to setup an alias, and PM CMDDM the actual characters. I have no problem with creating the full alias with character sheet, though. I trust that we will both behave as gentleman, and not peek. :)
I thought of two other things. We said 100' sphere, does that mean a curved ceiling, with 100' at the center of the arena? Or is it a cylinder? 100' top at any point?
Also, ambient light? Are we assuming full midday sun? Or is it going to be constructed/magical light? That might end up being rather important depending on the spells Arhena throws out.
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I think we switched from sphere to cylinder for easier adjudication. I feel like I remember having talked about that in the previous thread. I would hate to be the GM if it was a sphere. *shudder*
I was kind of assuming full sunlight (so the "bright" category of natural light). That means even if I pack deeper darkness, I can only get us down to dim light. Putting us in a cave or something feels a little like having the arena cater to my abilities.
I think we switched from sphere to cylinder for easier adjudication. I feel like I remember having talked about that in the previous thread. I would hate to be the GM if it was a sphere. *shudder*
I was kind of assuming full sunlight (so the "bright" category of natural light). That means even if I pack deeper darkness, I can only get us down to dim light. Putting us in a cave or something feels a little like having the arena cater to my abilities.
Okay, that is again what I was hoping, and yes I thought we had said cylinder too, but didn't take the time to search it in the closed thread. I feel like you're almost catering things to my fighter, just so that when you win, you can say, "see, casters are better, the end." :) Even so, I'm still having a ton of fun, and even if it's a one round affair, the puzzle of character creation for this specific situation has been totally rewarding. I think I've finally got some things solidified for Terylinlara the exile. Now I've just got to make sure I haven't overspent my feats and my WBL. :)
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I feel like you're almost catering things to my fighter, just so that when you win, you can say, "see, casters are better, the end." :)
Well, the C/MD of Pathfinder is only, like 20% combat at most, so I won't really be using this for that end. However, for the sake of any spectators, I do want to be careful. I can imagine someone who doesn't believe in C/MD watching me win, find something that was in my favor in the setup, then go around proclaiming that the only reason anyone believes there's a disparity is because of including that thing in their games.
...Did that make sense? Like, somebody saying "Well of course the wizard won, you let him do X! The GM's not supposed to let them do that so easily. This proves that the entire concept of there being a disparity stems solely from every single proponent coming from a game where the GM is too liberal with X."
So I don't plan to use the results for anything, but there's bound to be somebody who will use a wizard victory as proof that there's not a C/MD, and use our match to beat people over the head. So I want to make any such action as difficult (and obvious) as possible.
Even so, I'm still having a ton of fun, and even if it's a one round affair, the puzzle of character creation for this specific situation has been totally rewarding.
Oh, it won't be one round. I'm gonna have some fun. >:D
FINISH HIM!!!
Oh, wait, the fight hasn't even started yet?
I'm working on a level 10 fighter who is not optimized for arena combat at all. It isn't going to win anything, but it might make an interesting baseline for comparisons.
I'm agreeing with cylinder and bright lighting.
Campaign created: link.
I am having serious issues trying to figure out what to spend my last ~1,000gp on. :/
Ohhhh great! Rub it in why don't you? I've already overspent my budget, mentally anyway, and I'm trying to decide what are the things Terylinlara can live (meaning stay alive) without...
Still, I should have her fully fleshed out by late tomorrow afternoon.
Might I add a quaint twist to the proceedings?
Might I add a quaint twist to the proceedings?
Please, feel free, this is meant to be a community discussion.
Kobolds.
Who hate and fear you equally.
Kobolds.
Who hate and fear you equally.
I'm not sure I follow?
A large pack of angry kobolds out for everyone's blood is in the arena.
In anycase I'd be happy to throw my hat in if this is still open if you're talking teams..
A large pack of angry kobolds out for everyone's blood is in the arena.
In anycase I'd be happy to throw my hat in if this is still open if you're talking teams..
Ahh, well, I think the bouts are going to be tenuous enough without angry packs of bloodthirsty reptilian humanoids running around.
By all means, please throw a hat into the proverbial ring. The recruitment thread is over here.
I think we've all decided that any characters should be created and PMed to CMDDM for checking, so that there is some secrecy about opponents until the matches start. So feel free to create a character according to the rules given in the recruitment thread, and PM the CMDDM your character.
Welcome aboard! :)
Ahh, well, I think the bouts are going to be tenuous enough without angry packs of bloodthirsty reptilian humanoids running around.
A shame.
I wanted to run them myself.
Not that I have ulterior motives about lessons in fear or anything, no sir.