Hello,
So I would like to start by saying that I am Running Rise of the Runelords on a 20 point buy. Originally we had 3 people so we decided to allow gestalting. Now we have 4 and I change encounters a bit to compensate.
If you dont know what it is, is you pick to classes to level up simultaneously, and take the better benefits and class features of both classes.
So we have a Fighter/Sorceror.
Uses a two hand weapon. Good damage output, The face of the party.
We have an Druid/Fighter.
Tree singer druid with a large sapling familiar, and uses a spear for trips and such. Nice versatility overall.
We also have a Arcanist/Alchemist.
Spells, extracts for days. Not so good at close combat. He is the brains of knowledge checks. Suffers from low str and cha. Can heal the party with UMD.
Now we have this last player.
He constantly likes making new classes, and weird combinations when it comes to Gestalt. Frankly, I am close to putting my foot down in his various character creations, just for continuity purposes.
He currently plays a Hunter/Gunslinger, but wants to rebuild the last character he made.
SO HERE IS WHAT HE WANTS
LV5 Brawler/2 Monk(Master of Many Styles)/3 Inquisitor.
Instead of taking the spirit of gestalting and having versatility and the fun of having different resources, he wants to make a "One Punch Man' Kind of character.
He literally is using Gestalting to make a Monk/Monk/Monk.
He would like to combine dragon style, and pummeling style, along with dragon ferocity to pull everything into one punch, per say.
I did the math, and at lv 5 (excluding the free unarmed strike) he has a total of 9 Feats available for him as Human.
One of the problems I have, is that he is combining the brawler (fighter/monk) with a monk.
Also, pummeling style requires Flurry of Blows as a prerequisite. The Master of Many Styles Monk, loses Flurry of Blows as the archetype, but allows the fusion of two styles.
HOWEVER, as brawler, he gains "Brawler's Fury" which is an alternate prerequisite for pummeling style.
Not saying this is a really "Meta" build, but I feel that this character build is so specific, that like his other characters he is going to get "bored" with this class, when he find out that punching things is one of his only solutions to things.
Am I crazy paranoid? Has anyone experience similar players of this caliber?
Any advice on how to deal with this I would appreciate.
Thanks.
I don't like gestalt but if your player wants to play a "one punch ko" character whats' wrong about that? Point the player to the risk of getting bored with his character, but don't veto anything unless you feel the character could be disruptive for the overall enjoyment of the other players. Then keep running things the way you like, with a varety of situatios where one punching stuff is not an option. When (if) he gets bored that would be entirely his problem.
Sit down with him and figure out together what he actually likes:
* What did he enjoy in the past?
* What did he hate?
* What does he expect from a new character?
* Does he want to make up a backstory? (does help to stick with a character)
Don't force him to anything. If he doesn't want to do Gestalt, let him play single class and give him 20% to 40% additional levels. If he wants to play a role already taken, let him. If he doesn't want to stick with a single character at all, let him control some self-built NPCs instead of a PC.
I don't like gestalt but if your player wants to play a "one punch ko" character whats' wrong about that? Point the player to the risk of getting bored with his character, but don't veto anything unless you feel the character could be disruptive for the overall enjoyment of the other players. Then keep running things the way you like, with a varety of situatios where one punching stuff is not an option. When (if) he gets bored that would be entirely his problem.
See, I feel a great urge to just say "yeah whatever, do it"
However he wouldn't be contributing much to the table. All he would be able to do is punch things, while everyone else is RP-ing and have access to utility skills and spells.
I just want some nice continuity with characters, so that the story doesn't end with bards in the near future singing a ballad called "3 great heroes +1"
Sit down with him and figure out together what he actually likes:
* What did he enjoy in the past?
* What did he hate?
* What does he expect from a new character?
* Does he want to make up a backstory? (does help to stick with a character)Don't force him to anything. If he doesn't want to do Gestalt, let him play single class and give him 20% to 40% additional levels. If he wants to play a role already taken, let him. If he doesn't want to stick with a single character at all, let him control some self-built NPCs instead of a PC.
Well that is the thing, HE LOVES GESTALT, because he is able to use that system to get everything online, faster, stronger and better.
One of his last gestalt builds was the "Sacred Fist(warpriest)/Sensei(monk) which he made specifically one some niche that Wisdom granted the AC bonus twice because one was supernatural and the other was Extraordinary.
He likes to find nook and crannies that gestalt allows to be very specialized in what he does.
And that is another thing, he doesn't RP too well. And on top of that, most of his characters lack the social skills, stats, utility, to do anything too well out of combat. While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?
As a GM who often has gestalt players, I pretty much straight-out require that characters have diverse skillsets, rather than pouring all of their potential into doing one thing abnormally well. The whole point of Gestalt is to allow a smaller number of characters to cover multiple important party roles, usually both in and out of combat. You can specialize in just one thing, but that usually winds up being unfairly powerful and a bit game-breaking (in that the game was not intended to have characters with those numbers at that point in time).
If, as GM, you think he is going to get bored with this character, ask him to diversify his character and think about how he could be good at punching and something else.
DUDE, if I could send you a muffin Basket, I would.
You have carefully expressed into words, the frustrations and worry that I could not say.Rise of the runelords has been a little difficult to deal with gestalt characters, but this new monk monk monk might just wreck every encounter. And I am not about having players overshadow each other.
Thank you good sir.
Sit down with him and figure out together what he actually likes:
* What did he enjoy in the past?
* What did he hate?
* What does he expect from a new character?
* Does he want to make up a backstory? (does help to stick with a character)Don't force him to anything. If he doesn't want to do Gestalt, let him play single class and give him 20% to 40% additional levels. If he wants to play a role already taken, let him. If he doesn't want to stick with a single character at all, let him control some self-built NPCs instead of a PC.
Well that is the thing, HE LOVES GESTALT, because he is able to use that system to get everything online, faster, stronger and better.
One of his last gestalt builds was the "Sacred Fist(warpriest)/Sensei(monk) which he made specifically one some niche that Wisdom granted the AC bonus twice because one was supernatural and the other was Extraordinary.
He likes to find nook and crannies that gestalt allows to be very specialized in what he does.
And that is another thing, he doesn't RP too well. And on top of that, most of his characters lack the social skills, stats, utility, to do anything too well out of combat. While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?
Well, you are basically describing a powergamer who enjoys being the one who kills stuff better than anyone else, and cares little for other aspects of the game. He gets his kicks out of being a killing machine. If you don't think that syle of play meshes well with the rest of the group you have 2 options:
1. Explain to him how such a onedimesnional character isn't going to fit with your playstyle and the rest of the party and ask him to reduce the optimization widening the scope of the character instead.2. Let him play the way he wants and then play your game. If you have several encounters that cannot (or should not) be resolved through fighting he will understand how his character so eminently suited for killing isn't going to be much good for anything else. Then he MIGHT consider changing his ways.
From personal experience I believe 1 tends not to work. People like that spend a lot of time and effort in building something that kills monsters "quick and dirty", they usually think the game should only be about a series of encounters where they meet some critters, massacre them and steal their stuff (which they will sell/use in order to get even more lethal) and words are not going to convince them unless they are intelligent people willing to accept their perception of the game and what constitutes enjoyment could not be the only acceptable one.
It's better to show them how wrong they are. Then 2 things could happen: those players may feel cheated of their fun, make a fuss and leave OR they can learn from the experience and become different (I dare say better) players.
It's your duty to choose how to handle things but in the end success or defeat depend on who the people you are playing with are.
While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?
Actually I didn't see in actual play. But you could start low, with letting him design two NPCs or so, then try it out. I proposed it because I love building new characters myself, and as a GM (hence NPC builder) I finally found a place where this is a benefit, not a burden.
Sit down with him and figure out together what he actually likes:
* What did he enjoy in the past?
* What did he hate?
* What does he expect from a new character?
* Does he want to make up a backstory? (does help to stick with a character)Don't force him to anything. If he doesn't want to do Gestalt, let him play single class and give him 20% to 40% additional levels. If he wants to play a role already taken, let him. If he doesn't want to stick with a single character at all, let him control some self-built NPCs instead of a PC.
Well that is the thing, HE LOVES GESTALT, because he is able to use that system to get everything online, faster, stronger and better.
One of his last gestalt builds was the "Sacred Fist(warpriest)/Sensei(monk) which he made specifically one some niche that Wisdom granted the AC bonus twice because one was supernatural and the other was Extraordinary.
He likes to find nook and crannies that gestalt allows to be very specialized in what he does.
And that is another thing, he doesn't RP too well. And on top of that, most of his characters lack the social skills, stats, utility, to do anything too well out of combat. While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?
Well, you are basically describing a powergamer who enjoys being the one who kills stuff better than anyone else, and cares little for other aspects of the game. He gets his kicks out of being a killing machine. If you don't think that syle of play meshes well with the rest of the group you have 2 options:
1. Explain to him how such a onedimesnional character isn't going to fit with your playstyle and the rest of the party and ask him to reduce the optimization widening the scope of the character instead.
2. Let him play the way he wants and then play your game. If you have several encounters that cannot (or...
You make a lot of good points.
I feel he does like the "quick and dirty" style of combat to destroy everything right away or excelt above others in combat.
as far as option one, that is a difficult call, and I may have to do it, but no one likes it when people say No, to them, especially if they are "Technically" within the confines of the rules.
And option two is what I did with his abusudly high ac and save monk that he made. That monk was untouchable, and unaffected by any sort of saves. So, at some point I told him that in out of game that his character could literally walk casually through the next two dungeons and probably not die.
As he played, he noticed that monsters would always miss, and he was never in any sort of real danger, so after a while he retired that character.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While allowing him to play NPC, would be relatively cool, I do not think it would be too great of an idea, have you personally witness such a thing? Care to relay some experience?Actually I didn't see in actual play. But you could start low, with letting him design two NPCs or so, then try it out. I proposed it because I love building new characters myself, and as a GM (hence NPC builder) I finally found a place where this is a benefit, not a burden.
you know, that is a pretty good idea. Whenever I play a PC, I always have millions of ideas and character creation concepts going through my mind.
I think this might be good, in letting his creative juices flow and keeping him happy.
Maybe have some of his NPC roam the town, or make some sort of arena where he can test out his fighting prowess.
Thank you for the good idea!
You don't have to give him XP on encounters that don't pose a threat to his character.
What do you learn when you smack a bug?
I don't think he will continue with this PC when the other party members are one or two levels higher than him.
Honestly, I powergame as hard as I am able, to the point where I've gotten kicked off the board because it caused ally deaths by proxy. At least I roleplayed that bird into the ground though.
Let's get off the passive-aggressive approach shall we? Firm refusal is at least up front and honest. Combat is the core of Pathfinder and its predecessors/parallels. "Fun" is what happens when the table is somewhat in harmony -I've had Players that enjoyed simply wandering the countryside and though it killed the grand campaign, I indulged it because they were having fun -I simply had to adapt different challenges to throw their way. Heck, half the conflict was them pulling shenanigans on each other. Munckin-Focusing on that aspect is how he sees to excel in the game, never mind that its fun having other people around you to share what is hopefully a rewarding, immersive, and participative experience.
Getting back on point in this ramble: if you want to reward PCs in a COMBAT-based game to divert efforts to Roleplay... then mitigate the encounters to non-combat interactions. This is when a lot of the GMG stuff applies, I suppose, but usually I just give my Players assets and careers to take care of. You guys are excellent slayers, nice, but now the local community is asking you to stick around even though the Monster flow has trickled down significantly. Kind of like multi-phase games like Total War. One level is economic/political strategy, and the other is martially focused. History has proven that horrible organizations can beat the most elite by sheer force of numbers. As in those able to produce more than the enemy has the ability to deal with wins. Crafters can outfit a force, and the Diplomancer of the group can create policy and influence his community.
Mean, Mr. "I cast Fist" is there on the sidelines because eventually Intimidate would do nothing to surrounding NPCs except backlash into his expulsion from the area.
Gestalt is nice for filling party holes, but in a three-man? One member down can be compensated for with Animal Companions/Cohorts to regain the action economy and a Gestalt build can find a way to start utilizing Swift Actions. I am steering away from varied builds and going towards focused Gestalt. No worries about splitting skill points; gonna be good at what I take, no half-effort on those checks.
You don't have to give him XP on encounters that don't pose a threat to his character.
What do you learn when you smack a bug?
I thought Pathfinder was fixed XP? Not only did it simplify the system from 3.5 but it allowed PCs to gain XP from low and uber-high threats alike that the old system would not allow for. This is just reverting to an older system superseded by Paizo's CRB to get back at a Player so he behaves your way.
TL;DR Change the Focus of the campaign from Combat to Interpersonal Interactions with NPCs/Society. Infinity Plus Fister would then be faced with the real choice that a pure-combatant is no longer an approach that will yield total satisfaction. Plus, this would reinforce/reward your other PCs choices in making varied characters.
|
Oh, QQ. You're running a gestalt game, and your players get to build whatever they want according to the rules. Now, if you set specific requirements, then that's your right as a GM. But if he wants to build a one-hit wonder, let him. We had a character like that in my last game (charger), and she found herself quite surprised when the time came when a charge didn't solve all her problems.
You can make a very interesting Monk (MoMS)/Brawler Gestalt. I rolled up one for a short-lived 20th level campaign and it was fun.
Just tell him to take advantage of all the options he has available. Neat Qinggong powers on one side, Feats and pummeling on the other, decent amount of skills, etc.
I had Dragon, Snake, Pummeling, and Snapping Turtle up on this guy. Punish enemies who miss in several different flavors (hit, Grapple, Trip, etc.), destroy one dude on your turn with a Pummel, or at range with Blood Crow Strike. Smack a line with Cold Ice Strike, or remove conditions with restoration. Be the Human Lie Detector in social situations and call b&%+$~## on everything.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pummeling Style requires one of Flurry of Blows OR Brawler's Flurry OR BAB 6. You don't need Flurry of Blows to take it, and even so, Master Of Many Styles can bypass the prerequisite by taking it as a bonus feat.
There is nothing breaking the rules by the character taking it.
When we allow Gestalt, we say this:
Pick two classes.
Those are the ones you use to level up in.
That is all.
No mix and matching.
fighter/monk? yes.
What he is doing? Solid no.
My opinion...
conversely, it's just a melee character, so who cares.
I would be fine with Brawler/Moms but not so much Brawler/Moms + Inquisitor. Gestalt does really weird things if you try to multiclass along with it, and generally it doesn't work very well. So I would certainly make it clear that multiclassing isn't an option.
Actually, multiclassing in gestalt can be very easy as soon as you split it up into 'sides'. In this case, Side A would be Brawler, while Side B would be MOMS and Inquisitor. Compare both sides, take the better saves and base attack, etc.
Actually, multiclassing in gestalt can be very easy as soon as you split it up into 'sides'. In this case, Side A would be Brawler, while Side B would be MOMS and Inquisitor. Compare both sides, take the better saves and base attack, etc.
Simplicity is subjective...
Is it balanced? Doesn't sound like this build is.
I have found that 'limiting' gestalt to two classes works best, I mean, it's like multiclassing already!
My favorite is Fighter/Cleric. Smash face in the name of your God!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really don't see what the problem is. When compared to other gestalt characters, it seems rather underpowered. But why does it matter? Let the player be what the player wants to be. If it turns out he's not pulling his weight all the time, oh well. It's not like the rest of the gestalt party can't handle things.
Edit: Also remember this rules about hybrid classes:
Parent Classes: Each of the following classes draws upon two classes to form the basis of its theme. While a character can multiclass with these parent classes, doing so usually results in redundant abilities. Such abilities don't stack unless specified.
Actually it's the OP who doesn't quite "get it".
Gestalt was never a mechanic built for Pathfinder. It was a one-shot injection of filler material for 3.X, shoved into the SRD, and promptly forgotten about by WOTC in all products made afterward, much like Pathfinder's Words of Power. There was no supplementary material about it, not even a single NPC built with that mechanic in later materials.
It was built for a game system with generally weaker core classes then their rebuilt counterparts in Pathfinder. And all that was given to moderate it's use were some attached guidelines and SUGGESTIONS. i.e. don't allow PrCs and such.
This has to be kept in mind in any discussion involving the use of 3.5 mechanics in Pathfinder, but especially for gestalt.
Actually it's the OP who doesn't quite "get it".
Gestalt was never a mechanic built for Pathfinder. It was a one-shot injection of filler material for 3.X, shoved into the SRD, and promptly forgotten about by WOTC in all products made afterward, much like Pathfinder's Words of Power. There was no supplementary material about it, not even a single NPC built with that mechanic in later materials.
It was built for a game system with generally weaker core classes then their rebuilt counterparts in Pathfinder. And all that was given to moderate it's use were some attached guidelines and SUGGESTIONS. i.e. don't allow PrCs and such.
This has to be kept in mind in any discussion involving the use of 3.5 mechanics in Pathfinder, but especially for gestalt.
3.5 actually had a much higher power CEILING than PF, its PFs power FLOOR that is higher, overall 3.5 is the higher power system by a long shot
|
I agree that MoMS//Brawler is a perfectly valid gestalt. It actually can add a fair bit of in-combat versatility thanks to all the static and flexible bonus feats. In fact, martial flexibility will probably make it a lot easier to get the most out of the new MoMS wildcard feat slots since you can pick up prerequisites for style feats on the fly. If the player has already had disappointing experiences with an over-specialized character, it should not be difficult to prod him to make use of this versatility.
Out of combat might be a little more painful, but if you don't dump Int you can do OK with 4 skills/level. Sense Motive is a good pick since as Rynjin pointed out it works well with Snake Style (which you can pick up on the fly if you like), and it's useful in social scenes even if the player isn't really interested in talking.
Multiclassing with Inquisitor also supports Sense Motive and will give him more skill points and class skills, notably scouting and knowledge stuff. Plus magic for utility, buffing, or debuffing.
Is he planning on taking more than 2 levels of MoMS on the multiclassed side of the gestalt, or continuing with Inquisitor?
Actually, multiclassing in gestalt can be very easy as soon as you split it up into 'sides'. In this case, Side A would be Brawler, while Side B would be MOMS and Inquisitor. Compare both sides, take the better saves and base attack, etc.Simplicity is subjective...
Is it balanced? Doesn't sound like this build is.
I have found that 'limiting' gestalt to two classes works best, I mean, it's like multiclassing already!
Multiclassing gestalt isn't too difficult and can be interesting, but it often results in a bigger power boost than multiclassing non-gestalt. You can cherry-pick features fairly quickly and don't necessarily have to sacrifice a full progression class in order to dip.
In this case I don't think there's a big power difference between Brawler//Inquisitor and BrawlerX //MoMS 2 Inquisitor X-2. Inquisitor complements Brawler really nicely, and delaying features like Bane, Greater Bane, and Judgments does offset the increased damage from Fuse Styles.
We're just adding limitations on what is essentially a Houseruled feature from the parent system. This is imposing stylistic choices on player freedom. You are two simultaneous classes at once, where the best is what is applied, and anything that overlaps is fused, not doubled.
If someone wants Arcane/Arcane on top of each other, that's their prerogative to play that now-focused character.
The Hybrids are their own fun flavors, really. Because a Gestalt Fighter/Monk with full access to their archetypes and goodies is gonna floor a Brawler.
Variant Multiclass had a lot more potential, but was meant to reduce the overwhelming awesomeness of Gestalt to where:
A: Players may be unwilling to sacrifice 5 feats.
B: The paltry class features they inherit aren't focused/developed enough to take except if losing is the goal.
It can take off in certain situations. If a Druid Hierophant Chose VMC Sorcerer, he would have no Sorc spells per day, but still be counted as a Level equivalent sorcerer. Dual-Path into Archmage equals access to Wild Arcana... which means that you can cast an Arcane Spell from your Arcane Spell Tree that falls within your caster level. So... a Level 7 VMC Sorcerer would not have any spells per day but Archmage allows him to cast as if he were a Level 7 Sorcerer. Swift-Action Fireball away, wee!
Looking up, yeah, that took way too much bypass effort. Yay, neutered bloodline, so worth it.
One may be better off just leveling both base classes separately. In a game that absolutely rewards staying with one class the whole 20 level progression.
Unearthed Arcana was so awesome. It let me catch ECL0 characters as an ECL+1 because of the ECL buyback.
the biggest mistake i saw with gestalt and despite my earlier rant was permitted to do this in a game that was 3.5 but if it existed in pathfinder it trumped 3.5.
so
1) Maug 3.5 but was only forced to take the higher of the 2, CR or Hit Dice.2) Gestalt was required
3) Unearthed Arcana Rogue variant with feats no sneak attack. Gestalted with fighter variant no feats, sneak attack dice. using fighter and rogue progressions and abilities from pathfinder.
4) lvl 25 character with Epic level handbook.
So end result, im a huge maug, with a colossal grafted Pellet Gun (w/e the graft was for them)
Firing at targets that were on the other side of the planet, Viewed via scrying. Seeker Ammunition. so: Fighter, 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24 = 13d6 sneak attack. Rogue, at levels 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19,21,23, 25 (2 feats per go) = 26 feats (level plus class), Rogue: 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24 = 12 rogue talents.End result, we killed the enemy before they knew we were there.
the game started at lvl 25.gestalts, more balanced than mythic honestly
Lol, sounds weak compared to a straight level 25 Wizard. Scry and Fry existed long before gestalt.
I think the best advice in any situation with a problem player is always to begin with open communication. Tell the player your concerns: that his build will break encounters (making the game less fun for others) and probably not be very good out of combat (making it very likely that he will grow bored with this character too), and ask him to please make some adjustments.
In the future try to communicate your hopes/expectations more clearly from the beginning. Instead of the blanket statement "we're playing gestalt" you could try something like "we're going to try using gestalt to diversify our characters; I'm hoping (or expecting) everyone will pick two classes with different roles." You could even set up something more specific like "everyone should pick one full casting class and one class with 6/9 or less."
It's your game, so they're your rules... ideally you should set all of them clearly from the beginning but if you don't want to allow multiclassing then don't. And if you do allow it you should really use fractional bonus progression to avoid some of the shameless system manipulation that can happen otherwise.
Not saying this is a really "Meta" build, but I feel that this character build is so specific, that like his other characters he is going to get "bored" with this class, when he find out that punching things is one of his only solutions to things.
I'm not seeing the issue. 2 levels of 4 skill points and 3 levels of 6 skill points means he'll have plenty of skills to use when not punching and the classes give a wide variety of skills. He's got spells to play with, judgements, monster lore, Stern Gaze, Detect Alignment and track.
I'm seeing a LOT more than punch...
The only problem I see is the idea of getting WIS to AC twice. If you disallow that, his capabilities should be a little more manageable.
The only problem I see is the idea of getting WIS to AC twice. If you disallow that, his capabilities should be a little more manageable.
Well, yeah, that's out. They made stats a sources along with the actual abilities a while back, so the multiple sources don't allow stacking.