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I have seen the idea floating around the boards lately that being marginalized by flying encounters when you do not have flight yourself is easily dealt with by simply picking up a ranged weapon and starting to attack with it.
I am curious if the math supports this so I am going to run some numbers.
I am going to use fighter because I believe the difference will be the least and because it is easy.
I am not going to do every level.
20 pb as this is PFS standard and eliminates the randomness of rolling.
Human, cause yet again easy.
No traits, Not even gonna do skills.
Assumption is a target that is flying inside first range increment for longbow, not in melee and not in soft cover. I know this is vastly beneficial to the melee builds, but yet again easy.
AC is from the bestiary by level.
At level 1 all characters will be using a longbow for ranged as there is no way they can afford a composite with a strength bonus.
Human Fighter 1
Str: 16 + 2 Racial
Dex: 13
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Power Attack
1: Iron Will
Fighter: Furious Focus
To Hit with Greatsword: +5
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 9
Melee DPR VS AC 12: (0.70*16)+(0.70*16*1*0.1)= 11.2 + 1.12 = 12.32
Against an at CR opponent you need 2 rounds/Characters worth of effort win.
To Hit with Longbow: +1
Damage with Longbow: 1d8
Ranged DPR VS AC 12: (0.50*4.5)+(0.50*4.5*2*0.05)= 2.25 + 0.225 = 2.475
Against an at CR opponent you need 6 rounds/characters of effort to win.
Damage loss is 12.32-2.475=9.845dpr
Human Fighter 1
Str: 14 + 2 Racial
Dex: 15
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Power Attack
Fighter: Double Slice
To Hit with Kukri: +1
Damage with Kukri: 1d4 + 5
Melee DPR VS AC 12: ((0.50*7.5)+(0.50*7.5*1*0.15)) X 2= (3.75 + 0.5625) X 2 = (4.3125) X 2 = 8.625
Against an at CR opponent you need 2 rounds/characters of effort to win.
DPR without Power attack is 6.9575
DPR without PA and with Weapon Focus is 7.59
To Hit with Longbow: +2
Damage with Longbow: 1d8
Ranged DPR VS AC 12: (0.55*4.5)+(0.55*4.5*2*0.05)= 2.475 + 0.2475 = 2.7225
Against an at CR opponent you need 6 rounds/characters of effort to win.
Damage loss is 8.625-2.7225=5.9025dpr
Human Fighter 1
Str: 14
Dex: 16 + 2 Racial
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise shot
Fighter: Rapid Shot
To Hit with Greatsword: +3
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 3
Melee DPR VS AC 12: (0.60*10)+(0.60*10*1*0.1)= (6 + 0.6) = 6.6 dpr
Against an at CR opponent you need 3 rounds/characters of effort to win.
To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +3
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8
Ranged DPR VS AC 12: ((0.60*4.5)+(0.60*4.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (2.7 + 0.27) x 2 = (2.97) x 2 = 5.94
Against an at CR opponent you need 3 rounds/characters of effort to win.
DPR without PBS or RS, with DA: 4.6475
DPR without PBS or RS, with WF: 3.7125
To Hit with Longbow with PBS : +4
Damage with Longbow with PBS : 1d8 + 1
Ranged DPR VS AC 12: ((0.65*5.5)+(0.65*5.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (3.575 + 0.3575) x 2 = (3.9325) x 2 = 7.865
Against an at CR opponent you need 2 rounds/characters of effort to win.
DPR without RS, with DA + PBS: 5.3625
DPR without RS, with WF + PBS: 4.84
Damage loss without PBS (Melee better) is 6.6-5.94=0.66dpr
Damage loss with PBS (Ranged better) is 7.865-6.6=1.265dpr
Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16 + 2 Racial
Wis: 10
Chr: 10
Acid Splash\Ray of Frost DPR VS AC 10 for touch!: (0.65*2) +(0.65* 2*1*0.05)= 1.3 + 0.065= 1.365
Need 11 rounds to down an at CR opponent.
Difference from 2 hand: 2.475 - 1.365= 1.11
Difference from dual wield: 2.7225 - 1.365= 1.3575
Disrupt Undead DPR VS AC 10 for touch!: (0.65*3.5) +(0.65* 3.5*1*0.05)= 2.275 + 0.11375= 2.38875
Need 7 rounds to down an at CR opponent.
Difference from 2 hand: 2.475 - 2.38875= 0.08625
Difference from dual wield: 2.7225 - 2.38875= 0.33375
Conclusions at level 1:
1.) In terms of DPR 2-Hand>Dual wield>Ranged.
2.) Both 2-Hand and Dual Wield lose most of their DPR when switching to a ranged weapon.
3.) A Wizard using acid splash no feats or abilities for blasting is about 1-1.5 dpr behind a non ranged character using a bow.
4.) A wizard using disrupt undead no feats or abilities for blasting is about 0.1-0.4 dpr behind a non ranged character using a bow.
5.) Most of these numbers are most likely driven by lack of a strength composite bow.
6.) In their specialties all characters are at 2 rounds to down an at CR opponent. Melee --> Ranged jumps to 6 rounds, while Ranged --> Melee only goes to 3 rounds.
Next...
Level 5!
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One point is that they arent actually "loosing" dpr. They couldn't hit the thing with mellee so they are at least capable of doing "something"
It's not only about numbers, it also has an important psychological aspect: 'At least I can do something'. But back to the numbers: The level 1 melee guys do low damage, but about twice the amount of the cantrip caster.
That said, it's a frustrating encounter for sure, nothing a GM should use on a regular base. There is a related encounter in Rise of Runelord's early levels, and for many it was not fun.
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I have seen the idea floating around the boards lately that being marginalized by flying encounters when you do not have flight yourself is easily dealt with by simply picking up a ranged weapon and starting to attack with it.
No - the idea you're thinking of is that flying encounters aren't completely and utterly impossible for a melee type to deal with because there is the option to do some damage using ranged weapons. You have seemed to confirmed that, even at 1st level, it is possible for a melee-focused type to do some damage to a flying opponent.
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Just pick up a bow is a low level option. It is the least prepared you could be for a situation you are otherwise not fit for.
A better answer is a potion of fly. For a cavalier use it on your mount.
Yes casters have an easier time getting fly, but only a poorer player isn't prepared for these situations. If you're a melee combatant then it makes sense for you to pick up items that will cover your weaknesses. Potions are a really good way to do this.
I don't understand why people are so loathe to buy consumable items.
Good job. There are too few claims on there boards with math to back them up.
@Bob
Ah I see what you mean sorry been building too many clerics keep forgetting the 1 BaB.
@Everyone
Yeah at level one something>nothing, I agree.
I am doing level 5 right now and we will see how it holds up there.
I do believe that flying is almost always going to be better than using a ranged weapon for non-ranged characters. But I need to run numbers to confirm.
I strongly suspect that DR will make using a bow at higher levels dramatically drop off in value VS finding a method of flight.
My assumptions were always that flight on enemies starts coming in at 3-4 and is common at 7-10, so my martials have consumables starting at 4-5 to get in the air and at 8-9 get winged boots usually.
That is what I was trying to say.
TL;DR: I believe that using a ranged weapon as a non-ranged character will be inferior to simply using easily available resources to fly, and wish people would stop saying "Just have a compound bow!"
Hypothesis: Total rounds of (use consumable/item + Fly into Melee) < Total rounds of (Switch to a bow)...
It will depend a lot on relative fly speeds. If you are getting 1 attack a turn while melleeing due to movement it may reach a point where the itteratives on the bow help... There are a lot of situations to take into account here and lots of maths to do.
Good luck
[Edit] also with duration a flying creature that is faster or even the same speed as you and has any intelligence is capable of simply flying away while your consumable wears off
2H Hank should use a sling.
Same to hit. Same number of attacks assuming he doesn't have to move.
Damage is now d4+4 rather than d8.
If you have +2 or better strength bonus, use a sling until you can afford the composite bow.
2H Hank should use a sling.
Same to hit. Same number of attacks assuming he doesn't have to move.
Damage is now d4+4 rather than d8.
If you have +2 or better strength bonus, use a sling until you can afford the composite bow.
I prefer javelins, at least until you get a second attack.
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Use a bow is a silly answer to flying creatures unless you're focused on using a bow.
Archery is a fearsome combat style, but only if you have all most of the feats for it. Where as 2 handed fighting basically just requires power attack.
If you think it's in any way possible to keep your DPR up against flying creatures as a melee character without flying your deluding yourself.
I think when people say "pick up a bow" they really mean:
"You should have a bow so you can at least contribute to combat and it is a relatively cheap item to have a low levels as a backup answer to threats you would otherwise not be able to contribute against. Eventually this tactic will become completely ineffective and you must find a way to get into the air."
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I prefer javelins, at least until you get a second attack.2H Hank should use a sling.
Same to hit. Same number of attacks assuming he doesn't have to move.
Damage is now d4+4 rather than d8.
If you have +2 or better strength bonus, use a sling until you can afford the composite bow.
Javelins are good. Decent range, and you can use STR to hit with them if you upgrade your STR belt to a belt of mighty hurling.
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Keep in mind that Two-Handed Hank is probably also in some heavy armor with bad Dex. Even with a potion of fly, he likely won't be able to make the Fly checks to effectively engage in airborne melee. And even if he can, a +1 composite bow with a high strength score costs about the same as four potions of fly, but lasts forever. So save the flying magic for boss fights, and keep a bow around for flying mooks.
One thing of note this level is that this is usually where you start seeing DR5/Magic/Damage type/Something regularly.
Human Fighter 5
Str: 16 + 2 Racial
Dex: 13 + 1 Level
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Power Attack
1: Iron Will
Fighter 1: Furious Focus
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
3: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
5: Precise Shot
Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 Greatsword, 4 strength masterwork composite longbow, + 2 cloak of resistance, sundries ~8k/10.5K
Weapon Training Heavy Blades +1
To Hit with Greatsword: +12
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 16
Melee DPR VS AC 18: (0.75*23)+(0.75*23*1*0.1)= 17.25 + 1.725 = 18.975
So Melee DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 13.975. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 5 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 3 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +8
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 + 4
Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.55*8.5)+(0.55*8.5*2*0.05)= 4.675 + 0.4675 = 5.1425
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 0.1425. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 386 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 11 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +9
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 5
Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.60*9.5)+(0.60*9.5*2*0.05)= 5.7 + 0.57 = 6.27
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 1.27. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 44 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 9 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 18.975-5.1425=13.8325dpr
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 18.975-6.27=12.705dpr
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 13.975-0.1425=13.8325dpr
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 13.975-1.27=12.705dpr
Human Fighter 5
Str: 14 + 2 Racial
Dex: 15 + 1 Level
Con: 13
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 Kukri x 2, 3 strength masterwork composite longbow, +1 cloak of resistance, sundries ~7k/10.5K
Feats
Human: Two Weapon Fighting
1: Power Attack
Fighter: Double Slice
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Kukri)
3: Iron Will
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
5: Point Blank Shot
Weapon Training Light Blades +1
To Hit with Kukri: +7
Damage with Kukri: 1d4 + 11
Melee DPR VS AC 18: ((0.50*13.5)+(0.50*13.5*1*0.15)) X 2= (6.75 + 1.0125) X 2 = (7.7625) X 2 = 15.525
So Melee DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 5.525. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 10 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow no PBS: +9
Damage with Longbow no PBS: 1d8 + 3
Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.60*7.5)+(0.60*7.5*2*0.05)= 4.5 + 0.45 = 4.95
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 0.
Without the DR this goes to 12 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS: +10
Damage with Longbow with PBS: 1d8 + 4
Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.65*8.5)+(0.65*8.5*2*0.05)= 5.525 + 0.5525 = 6.0775
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 1.0775. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 52 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 10 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 15.525-4.95=10.575dpr
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 15.525-6.0775=9.4475dpr
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 5.525-0=5.525dpr
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 5.525-1.0775=4.4475dpr
Human Fighter 5
Str: 14
Dex: 16 + 2 Racial + 1 Level
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Chr: 10
Feats
Human: Point Blank Shot
1: Precise shot
Fighter 1: Rapid Shot
Fighter 2: Deadly Aim
3: Power Attack
Fighter 4: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
Weapon Training Ranged +1
Gear: +1 Breastplate, +1 2 strength Composite longbow, +2 Cloak of resistance, Masterwork Greatsword, Sundries ~8K/10.5K
To Hit with Greatsword: +6
Damage with Greatsword: 2d6 + 9
Melee DPR VS AC 18: (0.45*16)+(0.45*16*1*0.1)= (7.2 + 0.72) = 7.92 dpr
So Melee DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 2.92. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 19 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR this goes to 7 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow No PBS: +8
Damage with Longbow No PBS: 1d8 +8
Ranged DPR VS AC 18: ((0.55*12.5)+(0.55*12.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (6.875 + 0.6875) x 2 = (7.5625) x 2 = 15.125
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 5.125. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 11 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.
To Hit with Longbow with PBS : +9
Damage with Longbow with PBS : 1d8 + 9
Ranged DPR VS AC 12: ((0.60*13.5)+(0.60*13.5*2*0.05)) x 2= (8.1 + 0.81) x 2 = (8.91) x 2 = 17.82
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 7.82. Against the average 55 hp enemies at this level that would mean 8 rounds/characters of effort to kill one at CR enemy.
Without the DR or if it is DR magic this goes to 4 rounds/characters of effort.
Damage loss no DR, no PBS is 15.125-7.92=7.205dpr
Damage loss no DR, with PBS is 17.82-7.92=9.9dpr
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 5.125-2.92=2.205dpr
Damage loss with DR, with PBS is 7.82-2.92=4.9dpr
Conclusions at level 5:
1.) In terms of DPR 2-Hand>Dual wield~=Ranged without PBS. With PBS 2-Hand>Ranged>Dual Wield.
2.) Both 2-Hand and Dual Wield lose most of their DPR when switching to a ranged weapon.
3.) DR hurts Dual wielders and ranged much more than 2-hand
4.) DR effectively shuts down use of a ranged weapon for non-ranged based characters and seriously hurts ranged characters
5.) Things like weapon blanches, oils, blunt arrows and potions of fly become a must to preserve DPR.
6.) It is always worth the action economy for non-ranged to chug a fly potion and put on an oil to punch DR rather than using a bow.
7.) Ranged basically should not Melee as they lose to much DPR, it will almost always be better to 5ft and shoot if possible.
Next...
Level 10!
Damage loss with DR, no PBS is 13.975-0.1425=13.8325dpr
Presenting these as percentage decreases would probably be more informative.
Well... Duh!
Using a combat style other than your specialization will lower your DPR... But the alternative is stand there doing nothing because your sword can't reach the enemy.
That said, most martial classes have tricks that make them decent archers, even if only for a moment (hopefully you aren't fighting powerful flying opponents with ranged weapons every encounter).
- Barbarian's can use an Adaptive bow to benefit from Rage. And Urban Barbarian's can increase their Dex. Things like Reckless Abandon can boost accuracy even further.
- Bloodrager's are similar to Barbarians. And they also have spells.
- Cavaliers can... Well... Yeah... They are screwed.
- Fighters aren't much better... But they have feats to be a decent switch-hitter and can take Bows as their second Weapon Training. With Gloves of Dueling, that's a huge boost.
- Gunslingers are already focused on ranged combat.
- Monks... Have the Scorching Ray Ki Power, I suppose...
- Paladins have Smite Evil, Divine Bond and spells such as Divine Power.
- Rangers also make great Switch hitters. And Instant Enemy lets them just buzzsaw right through their enemy. They also have spells like Aspect of the Falcon, Gravity Bow and Bow Spirit.
- Slayer get Studied Target and Ranger Combat Styles, so they too can make great switch-hitters.
- Swashbucklers have high Dex... So... Uh... There's that, I guess...
In any case, a simple Bracers of Falcon's Aim costs only 4k and gives a solid boost to all ranged attacks (as well as to Perception checks).
tl;dr: A martial character focused on melee might never be nearly as good with a ranged weapon, but they can very well be good enough to pose a real threat to the flying enemy.
Brawlers can become very decent archers on demand thanks to Martial Flexibility giving them the feats as needed.
Oh, yeah... I forgot about Brawlers! I knew there was something missing from my list! XD
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Use a bow is a silly answer to flying creatures unless you're focused on using a bow. Archery is a fearsome combat style, but only if you haveallmost of the feats for it.
In such a situation, you probably don't have to worry about having Precise Shot and the enemy may be too far away for PBShot anyway. At low levels, using a bow is usually a good option against an enemy you can't reach with melee. By mid to high levels you should have some way of getting into melee regardless. Air Walk and Overland Flight are both long lasting and decent answers to needing altitude in combat.
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By mid to high levels you should have some way of getting into melee regardless. Air Walk and Overland Flight are both long lasting and decent answers to needing altitude in combat.
For most melee characters, Air Walk depends on you having a divine caster devoted to your needs, and Overland Flight (a Personal spell) is completely unattainable.
Math is massively wrong in the vs DR examples.
1d8+4 damage would average 3.5 damage through 5 pts of DR. Your formula should be (.55*3.5) + (.55*.05*2) = 1.98 DPR through defenses.
All other damage through DR calculations need to make the same formula adjustments.
So you are saying to take the DR off before multiplying to hit and crits, not after?
Could you please explain why this works this way to me? I am not trying to argue just curious and trying to get this as right as I can.
"Ranged DPR VS AC 18: (0.55*8.5)+(0.55*8.5*2*0.05)= 4.675 + 0.4675 = 5.1425
So Ranged DPR with DR that cannot be penetrated would be 0.1425."
This is the wrong bit. Let's say my damage is 1d12 and I'm up against DR 10. If you simply subtract the DR from the average damage, my average damage looks negative, which is wrong. A simple average effectively treats damage rolls that come out negative after you subtract DR as though they heal the enemy.
You need to allow for the minimum damage being zero, which makes things more complicated.
If my damage was 1d8+1 against DR5/- my average damage would be (0+0+0+0+1+2+3+4) / 8 = 1.125
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I have to disagree that it's as simple as picking up a bow. First off unless one gets really high roll on starting gold. The average is 175 gp. A regular longbow is 75 gp. At most one is going to busy a shortbow depending on the class. For more martial classes it's armor, melee than ranged items imo.
Second I don't like switch hitters. Even with all the extra feats that a Fighter has. Being able to target ranged and melee creatures yet master of none. To be decent at ranged attacks one needs point blank shot which seems to be a feat tax for most ranged build. It's a useful fest but not spectuacular. Followed by Precise shot. At later levels depending on the classes and the kind of enemies the DM throws at you. It can get croweded. One really does not need a -4 to fire into melee as well.If you really want to hit a ranged target Far shot is good as well. Which to me is too much investment unless one wants to specialize with a bow.
Third it requires a investment in magic items. Which depending on the the level of magic (high, Standard or low) and DM are not easy to acquire.
Being viable in combat against a ranged opponent can be done. It also highlights the main difference between casters and melee types. Casters use a spell maybe two. Fighters need feats, items and gold.
I have to disagree that it's as simple as picking up a bow. First off unless one gets really high roll on starting gold. The average is 175 gp. A regular longbow is 75 gp. At most one is going to busy a shortbow depending on the class. For more martial classes it's armor, melee than ranged items imo.
Pick up a sling, then a bow when you can afford it.
Fighters need feats, items and gold.
This is what the thread is exploring - whether a melee character who makes minimal investment in archery (such as buying a composite longbow with appropriate strength modifier as soon as it's affordable, plus some cold iron / silver / blunt arrows) can make a meaningful contribution against a flying enemy with a ranged attack.
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Every mid level melee character can be assumed to have a stat belt. The requirements for a stat belt are transmutation spells.
If you have three ranks in UMD and a +6 base fort save, you can take Flight Mastery form the weapon master's handbook to let you use your stat belt magic item to cast Fly with a caster level equal to your BAB. You can easily do this at third level if you multiclass.
Nobody seems to note that flying monster "pay" that ability by having quite below average combat statistic (both AC and HP) and thus the "loss" of DPR is actually factored into the math.
True Dragons don't count.
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Pick up a sling, then a bow when you can afford it.
I did not bother with adding slings in my last post. As while cheap. good luck hitting anything past 50 ft. Mind you many ranged weapons in Pathfinder lack range. Their also something underwhelming about a Fighter using a sling versus a bow. A bow looks cool. A guy in full plate or at least chainmail using a sling simply does not look heroic to me at least.
This is what the thread is exploring - whether a melee character who makes minimal investment in archery (such as buying a composite longbow with appropriate strength modifier as soon as it's affordable, plus some cold iron / silver / blunt arrows) can make a meaningful contribution against a flying enemy with a ranged attack.
I know but at the same time time. It still kind of highlights the issue melee types have vs opponents who fly. Casters can use spells. Melee types have to go out of their way to compete. They can still be viable yet it does nothing to hide the flaw imo.
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Readying actions to use a Tanglefoot Bag, or Net, is a good option.
A good tactic but also limited by range. Both have a range of ten feet. Useful against non-intelligent flying opponent. Or those with no ranged weapons. Even then don't roll a one with a tanglefoot bag as a fumble means your group or at least a ally or two are stuck. I think people are forgetting that after the max range increment penalties to hit are added to a attack roll.
Use a bow is a silly answer to flying creatures unless you're focused on using a bow.
Archery is a fearsome combat style, but only if you have
allmost of the feats for it. Where as 2 handed fighting basically just requires power attack.If you think it's in any way possible to keep your DPR up against flying creatures as a melee character without flying your deluding yourself.
I think when people say "pick up a bow" they really mean:
"You should have a bow so you can at least contribute to combat and it is a relatively cheap item to have a low levels as a backup answer to threats you would otherwise not be able to contribute against. Eventually this tactic will become completely ineffective and you must find a way to get into the air."
BS. Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6.
A good tactic but also limited by range. Both have a range of ten feet. Useful against non-intelligent flying opponent. Or those with no ranged weapons. Even then don't roll a one with a tanglefoot bag as a fumble means your group or at least a ally or two are stuck. I think people are forgetting that after the max range increment penalties to hit are added to a attack roll.Readying actions to use a Tanglefoot Bag, or Net, is a good option.
Full BAB characters generally laugh at the first 2 range increment penalties, and most GMs wont go to those ranges because their battle maps don't support it.
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Full BAB characters generally laugh at the first 2 range increment penalties, and most GMs wont go to those ranges because their battle maps don't support it.
Again it's a viable tactic. It's still not a perfect tactic. Each range increment is a -2 to hit. Add in penalties from using it in melee which is a another -4 and your looking at a -6 to hit unless the conditions are right. I have yet to see any full bab character shrug off a -6 a low level. Sure they can hit. They won't hit consistently imo.
The games I have played and run those range increments need to be factored in as their usually someone who takes a ranged character. Or sometimes the DM uses a flying creature.
BS. Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6.
It's not simply a matter of one feat. Deadly aim is simply power attack renamed. If all your battles are going to be in a open area with no obstacles or party members in your way. As well as flying creatures in close range. Then you can take one feat. You need precise shoot to avoid the -4 to fire into melee. Point Blank shot to get that one as it's a feat tax. If your going to focus on archery you also need Farshot to reduce penalties for long range. To avoid Aoos in combat point blank master which requires weapon focus and weapon specialization. Even Rangers need to take those two feats before taking PBM. If all it took was one feat no one would be complaining. I sure would not. It's more than that.
Why do they need to be able to hit consistently? This is for a backup plan as something they can still be relevant doing. Its not supposed to be their primary thing. Its like a wizard running out of useful spells.
Full BAB characters generally laugh at the first 2 range increment penalties, and most GMs wont go to those ranges because their battle maps don't support it.Again it's a viable tactic. It's still not a perfect tactic. Each range increment is a -2 to hit. Add in penalties from using it in melee which is a another -4 and your looking at a -6 to hit unless the conditions are right. I have yet to see any full bab character shrug off a -6 a low level. Sure they can hit. They won't hit consistently imo.
The games I have played and run those range increments need to be factored in as their usually someone who takes a ranged character. Or sometimes the DM uses a flying creature.
It's not simply a matter of one feat. Deadly aim is simply power attack renamed. If all your battles are going to be in a open area with no obstacles or party members in your way. Then you can take one feat. You need precise shoot to avoid the -4 to fire into melee. Point Blank shot to get that one as it's a feat tax. If your going to focus on archery you also need Farshot to reduce penalties for long range. To avoid Aoos in combat point blank master which requires weapon focus and weapon specialization. Even Rangers need to take those two feats before taking PBM. If all it took was one feat no one would be complaining. I sure would not. It's more than that.
BS. Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6.
You have no need for the other feats. If there is already a melee going on, you charge into the melee with your primary weapon. This is for the backup plan, not the primary plan.
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Why do they need to be able to hit consistently? This is for a backup plan as something they can still be relevant doing. Its not supposed to be their primary thing. Its like a wizard running out of useful spells.
True as long as one wants a backup weapon and not to hit too often with it. At least until high levels. I'm one of those players. I play a fighter I take ranged feats after I have taken all the other necessary feats. If ones want to hit consistently one needs at least Precise shot at least until low to mid levels. That -4 hurts when firing into melee kind is a decent penalty and happens more than you think. Less in ranged combat but it does. Precise shot needs PBS. It all depends on the player. Sme may like to hit less often some don't
True as long as one wants a backup weapon and not to hit too often with it. At least until high levels. I'm one of those players. I play a fighter I take ranged feats after I have taken all the other necessary feats. If ones want to hit consistently one needs at least Precise shot at least until low to mid levels. That -4 hurts when firing into melee kind is a decent penalty and happens more than you think. Less in ranged combat but it does. Precise shot needs PBS.
Why do they need to be able to hit consistently? This is for a backup plan as something they can still be relevant doing. Its not supposed to be their primary thing. Its like a wizard running out of useful spells.
And you don't need that if its not your primary weapon. Any primary archer rushes precise and rapid shot because of the DPR boosts, and deadly aim is the 4th feat. But this thread is about using your bow as a secondary or tertiary style, where devoting feats to it is generally not in the build.
Archery as a backup is for when you fight a flying enemy and no one can fly up to it. Cause if someone could fly they'd cause the "fighter" to fly cause it's the most beneficial. so if you're using backup there would be no cover and no one in melee. so no penalties
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People keep saying you'd need precise shot, and I just don't see why. If you, as a primary melee, are pulling out a ranged weapon against a flying foe, I have no idea what melee you could possibly be shooting into. Same situation for PBS, with the stipulation that rapid shot would be nice, but still not needed. If you need a damage boost on your ranged attack pick up deadly aim and call it good.
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I did not bother with adding slings in my last post. As while cheap. good luck hitting anything past 50 ft. Mind you many ranged weapons in Pathfinder lack range. Their also something underwhelming about a Fighter using a sling versus a bow. A bow looks cool. A guy in full plate or at least chainmail using a sling simply does not look heroic to me at least.
Pick up a sling, then a bow when you can afford it.
Maybe you'd look more heroic in general if you weren't so poor as to be unable to afford a bow with a decent str mod. This is called living within your means. If you can't afford full plate, you buy chainmail. If you can't buy a composite longbow built for a +4 str mod, you pick up a sling. It's better than complaining that bows are too expensive when a flying enemy shows up.
Use a bow is a silly answer to flying creatures unless you're focused on using a bow. Archery is a fearsome combat style, but only if you haveIn such a situation, you probably don't have to worry about having Precise Shot and the enemy may be too far away for PBShot anyway. At low levels, using a bow is usually a good option against an enemy you can't reach with melee. By mid to high levels you should have some way of getting into melee regardless. Air Walk and Overland Flight are both long lasting and decent answers to needing altitude in combat.allmost of the feats for it.
I think we're basically saying the same thing.
BS. Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6.Use a bow is a silly answer to flying creatures unless you're focused on using a bow.
Archery is a fearsome combat style, but only if you have
allmost of the feats for it. Where as 2 handed fighting basically just requires power attack.If you think it's in any way possible to keep your DPR up against flying creatures as a melee character without flying your deluding yourself.
I think when people say "pick up a bow" they really mean:
"You should have a bow so you can at least contribute to combat and it is a relatively cheap item to have a low levels as a backup answer to threats you would otherwise not be able to contribute against. Eventually this tactic will become completely ineffective and you must find a way to get into the air."
I couldn't disagree with you more. In this particular example many of the ranged feats might not be as applicable, but to be good at ranged combat does really require having most of the feats. I don't just mean adequate enough to get by, I mean actually being good.
You definitely need Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot (which also means you need PBS to get them). Without them trying to make an attack against a target in melee and your shooting through your ally to hit your enemy means a -8 to attack. You need deadly aim to keep your damage competitive, because strength just doesn't add enough damage on its own. I can't justify having more than 14 strength on an archery to begin with and dex definitely takes priority over strength enhancement.
His line about "Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6."
IS only talking about "this particular example"
This thread and most of the people talking in here is about the case of a backup bow.
For a backup bow having deadly aim on a full bab character is enough to help bump the damage through later in the game.
Thus "being relevant" since you can now get through DR.
Thus any talk about how to make archery good all the time isn't what a lot of people on this thread are talking about. This is causing people to talk past each other since they aren't talking about the same thing.
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I couldn't disagree with you more. In this particular example many of the ranged feats might not be as applicable, but to be good at ranged combat does really require having most of the feats. I don't just mean adequate enough to get by, I mean actually being good.
You don't need to be good at a backup option. Especially a backup option that involves an unengaged target with no cover. You just need to be able.
I have seen the idea floating around the boards lately that being marginalized by flying encounters when you do not have flight yourself is easily dealt with by simply picking up a ranged weapon and starting to attack with it.
I am curious if the math supports this so I am going to run some numbers.
I am going to use fighter because I believe the difference will be the least and because it is easy.
I am not going to do every level.
20 pb as this is PFS standard and eliminates the randomness of rolling.
Human, cause yet again easy.
No traits, Not even gonna do skills.
Assumption is a target that is flying inside first range increment for longbow, not in melee and not in soft cover. I know this is vastly beneficial to the melee builds, but yet again easy.
AC is from the bestiary by level.
At level 1 all characters will be using a longbow for ranged as there is no way they can afford a composite with a strength bonus.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
I am a "pick up a bow" person, but I would never say it makes the fight easy. I will say that even doing 5 to 6 points of damage instead of the 30+ per hit that you are used to will help end the encounter a lot faster than doing nothing.
I am not saying you specifically do this, but I have seen games where players were like "I don't have a ranged weapon, and doing (insert low number) won't matter so I just won't do anything".
BS. Being relevant in archery as a full BAB character requires 1 feat: Deadly Aim. And you don't need that until around level 6.I couldn't disagree with you more. In this particular example many of the ranged feats might not be as applicable, but to be good at ranged combat does really require having most of the feats. I don't just mean adequate enough to get by, I mean actually being good.
You definitely need Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot (which also means you need PBS to get them). Without them trying to make an attack against a target in melee and your shooting through your ally to hit your enemy means a -8 to attack. You need deadly aim to keep your damage competitive, because strength just doesn't add enough damage on its own. I can't justify having more than 14 strength on an archery to begin with and dex definitely takes priority over strength enhancement.
There is a huge gulf between being relevant and being good. I never said that feat alone will make you good. This is about having the option to do it and still feel like you are contributing something. At high levels, without the feat your damage will drop off too fast, but with it you will maintain damage equivalent to a mid tier dps. Since you are only pulling it out as a backup, the times you need the other feats will be much more limited.
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I am a "pick up a bow" person, but I would never say it makes the fight easy. I will say that even doing 5 to 6 points of damage instead of the 30+ per hit that you are used to will help end the encounter a lot faster than doing nothing.
I am not saying you specifically do this, but I have seen games where players were like "I don't have a ranged weapon, and doing (insert low number) won't matter so I just won't do anything".
Exactly. I play Pathfinder Society, so there are various random people at the table each time. I can't even count the number of times we've had a melee guy who didn't even have a ranged weapon at all. They might not finish things off quickly like they would in battle, but at least it lets them help a little against flying foes. Given that you can get a sling and 10 bullets for 1 silver piece, there's really no excuse for anyone not to have a ranged weapon.
- Cavaliers can... Well... Yeah... They are screwed.
they could work with their dm to get a flying mount
- Cavaliers can... Well... Yeah... They are screwed.they could work with their dm to get a flying mount
and if i remember correctly there are a set of horseshoes that can give a mount flight