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So...I've had a blast playing Lyric so far. She's a deaf Oradin (Life Oracle/Paladin cross) who fights with falchion and glaive, runs life link, and charms everyone from goblins to trolls. She worships Shelyn, and has a passion for art. She's cheerful, goofy and fun.
I originally thought that I might do extra revelation or selective channel at this level, but I have yet to use channel in combat, and I'm not sure how I would use energy body. I have not a single combat feat, and quite possibly the worst initiative modifier anyone has seen: -4. It's so bad, I haven't bothered to improve it.
I love skills, love diplomacy, and will likely be playing more and more with spells as my wandering spirit from the spirit guide archetype starts bringing me interesting ones.
I know that I could take power attack, or step-up, or weapon focus, but I'm looking for other interesting ideas or things that I haven't considered yet. (I realize that it's important to take fighter feats if you enter melee... I just want to know if there are other good options that I might be missing.)
I'd appreciate any and all suggestions!
Hmm
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Are you dipping paladin just for the cha to saves, with your main in oracle? Or are you in oracle for fluff, majority paladin, or are you doing an even split of both?
Its pretty important.
Mostly paladin:Power attack
Mostly oracle: additional traits -Fates favored, (additional trait of choice - I'd take dangerously curious, pump UMD skill).
If even spread: Power attack.
Yes, I'm cynical and jaded. At higher levels, less humanoids, less chance you can talk your way out of things. Hp inflates as well. If you cannot kill things, your name is going to end up on that Wall...
I'm a HUGE fan of the oracle spell murderous command. If there is a favorite spell of yours, maybe Spell Focus in it? Or some metamagic?
What is the rest of your party like? What role do you usually do? Anvil, Arm, Hammer?
I was going to suggest Combat Reflexes, but your Dex is only 10. Do you use Channel Energy a lot? Maybe a Channel feat?
Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon can be really fun. It lets you mix things up in combat.
Are you going mostly oracle, mostly paladin, or 50/50?
She is most likely going Oracle the rest of the way.
Rest of the party will be random since this is a PFS character, but she is usually paired with Mist, my unchained rogue 2 / arcanist X.
Male half-elf arcanist (brown-fur transmuter) 2/rogue (unchained) 2 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 8, 77, Pathfinder Unchained 20)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +3; Senses low-light vision; Perception +12
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Defense
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AC 15, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+2 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 27 (4 HD; 2d6+2d8+6)
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +3; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee sap +5 (1d6 nonlethal) or
spiked gauntlet +5 (1d4)
Ranged darkwood composite shortbow +6 (1d6/×3)
Special Attacks arcane reservoir (1/5), arcanist exploits (dimensional slide[ACG], metamagic knowledge[ACG]), consume spells, sneak attack (unchained) +1d6
Arcanist (Brown-Fur Transmuter) Spells Prepared (CL 4th; concentration +9)
1st—glue seal[ACG], obscuring mist
0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, mage hand, message
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 20, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Extra Arcanist Exploit[ACG], Great Fortitude, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Perception), Weapon Finesse
Traits clever wordplay, magical knack
Skills Acrobatics +10, Appraise +9, Bluff +10, Climb +4, Disable Device +13, Escape Artist +10, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +9, Knowledge (engineering) +9, Knowledge (history) +9, Knowledge (local) +10, Linguistics +9, Perception +12, Perform (oratory) +4, Profession (fortune-teller) +6, Sense Motive +4, Sleight of Hand +7 (+11 to hide objects on your body (doesn't stack with heavy clothing but does with bonuses for attempting to hide small objects)), Spellcraft +12, Stealth +8, Survival +0 (+2 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +4, Use Magic Device +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Aquan, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Shoanti, Undercommon, Varisian
SQ elf blood, rogue talent (trap spotter), trapfinding +1
Combat Gear cold iron arrows (20), cold iron arrows (30), oil of magic weapon (2), potion of cure light wounds, scroll of fly, fly, wand of comprehend languages (50 charges), wand of endure elements (50 charges), wand of shield (50 charges), acid, oil (8), oil (2); Other Gear +1 haramaki[UC], darkwood composite shortbow, sap, spiked gauntlet, headband of vast intelligence +2, pathfinder pouch, wayfinder[ISWG], bedroll, belt pouch, blanket[APG], candle (6), cold weather outfit, earplugs[APG], grappling hook, ink, inkpen, masterwork backpack[APG], masterwork fortune-teller's deck[APG], masterwork thieves' tools, parchment (7), pocketed scarf[UE], silk rope (50 ft.), spell component pouch, spell component pouch, spellbook, tindertwig (20), twine (50')[APG], waterskin, wrist sheath, spring loaded, 1,941 gp, 8 sp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Reservoir +1 DC or CL (5/day) (Su) Pool of points fuel exploits, or can expend to add +1 CL or DC while cast spell.
Cold weather outfit +5 Fort save vs. cold weather.
Consume Spells (1/day) (Su) As a move action, expend a spell slot to add its spell levels to arcane reservoir.
Dimensional Slide (20 feet) (Su) Use 1 reservoir as part of move/withdraw, move to spot in sight for only 5 ft movement & no AoO.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fortune-teller's deck, masterwork +2 to Profession: Fortune-Teller or Profession: Medium
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Magical Knack (Arcanist [Brown-Fur Transmuter]) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Pathfinder pouch (4 @ 10 lbs)
Silent Spell Cast a spell with no verbal components. +1 Level.
Sneak Attack (Unchained) +1d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trap Spotter (Ex) Whenever you come within 10' of a trap, the GM secretly rolls for you to find it.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wayfinder (empty)
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Undercommon language from Int Headband.
Escape Artist skill from Int Headband.
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Skill Focus: Perception would help offset your horribly low perception, and would allow you to take Eldritch Heritage for either the accursed or draconic bloodlines. Accursed would be nice with a fear debuff, and the ability to cause staggered at 11th level with improved eldritch heritage.
Besides, there is something appealing about a deaf descendant of hag who can form a horrific appearance worshiping the goddess of beauty and art.
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I plan to go oracle with her the rest of the way. While I really like what Paladin offers at levels three and four, I'd also love to play with spells more, especially as I start getting the bonus spells from my wandering spirit.
I see that everyone recommends and loves power attack. Maybe my issue here is that I've never really played a martial-focused PFS character before. I do think that I can be an effective anti-caster build with silence and my high will and fort saves. Maybe I should reconsider the feat.
Murderous command is a great spell, but Lyric is a sweet cheery paladin who loves just about everyone she meets. I don't think it fits.
I have to admit that if I went eldritch heritage, it would be to get a familiar. Why? Because I adore animal buddies. I realize that it would be multiple feats though, and that might not be optimal.
Additional traits is interesting but I can't take Fate's Favored because I've already taken Blessed Touch (another faith trait).
Other contender feats:
1) toughness
2) extra lay on hands
3) step up -- to keep them from stepping away!
Here are what I see to be Lyric's main weaknesses:
1) Perception -- What's that?
2) Armor class (I think I'm best off putting magic into this)
3) Mobility... Though Heaven's Leap hex will certainly help here, and I might consider getting those boots of striding and springing!
I think that part of my issue with Lyric is that sometimes she's the only hammer in a group, and sometimes there's three barbarians and she's just an arm / healer. She always serves well as a party face, and I know that combat is needed. Maybe I'm having an identity crisis here because her role changes with every scenario, and she's been so flexible.
Hmm
I like Step Up. I like feats that let you do more things, as opposed to feats that let you do the same things more. But that's just me.
I love the image of a shiny happy paladin!
Energy Body is great! You can heal yourself as a move action, better yet heal someone else as a move action, or even better still heal someone else using their move action on their turn .
If that wasn't enough, you become immune to critical hits, sneak attack, precision damage, bleed, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning, and undead who attack you are hurt with no save.
I really don't see a point in Energy Body at all. It's nice on paper but impractical in play. As an Oradin, your primary method of healing is Life Link, which you then heal yourself through your lay on hands. Going hard Oracle path will significantly reduce the effectiveness of this to a point I don't think it'd be worth it, but I suppose you do at least get a smite and and CHA to saves out of it.
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You can still use your weapons and have your full AC in energy body. you can attack on the front line and heal, or have an ally move through your square for the free healing.
The problem is the amount of healing is low, worse than a CLW or a lay on hands. It's not that good for in-combat healing, but it's a nice to have for a free run though everyone for some out of combat healing.
When frontlining, you can use life-link, use your standard action to attack and use your move action to heal yourself. Also, if you are adjacent to your allies while on the front line, they can use their move action to heal themselves. This tactic is particularly potent before you need to make full-attacks.
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Hey-hey Lyric! Looking for some advice, eh? I spent a little time in the Archive looking up some of the fancy tricks you're able to pull off. Looks like you're on the verge of some really crazy stuff! So yeah, you don't need to go for anything fancy.
Anyway, V'sarki and I talked it over. You got a lot of magic coming your way. Very powerful. Very lucky, almost lucky as I am! Since you take a good punch and you eat up other people's bad luck, my gut tells me Toughening up is a sure shot. But I'll be honest, I say all that for greedy reasons.
You protect your friends, but sometimes you gotta fight! Words don't always work, but a knife on a long stick always does the trick. You and I know that! So you gotta hit haaaaaaaard. Just make sure you can Attack with Power and you're set for the rest of your days. After all, you won't always have the two of us to wreck stuff for ya, and sometimes the Society sets you up with five nerds that'll look to you for killin' the stuff you can't talk to.
Once you got the basics for swingin' that polearm covered, good luck and that flashy magic can cover the rest.
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Hmmm I'm thinking Skill Focus really. She strikes me as a fun loving character that wants to make friends, but maybe in the skill Heal, while having cure magic being quite potent it's good for when one is out of said spells/powers. At the next feat chain you might find this amusing. Take Elderich Heritage for the Celestial Bloodline for Sorcerer's. More healing and a damaging effect for those she detects as evil.
Or from 3.5 Conversion if allowed. Augment Healing (Preq: 1 Rank of Heal)
Effect: All Cure spells heal 2 additional HP per spell level (CLW +2, CMW +4, CSW +6, Etc)
not to mention the level caps, so at level 5, your cure light wounds would Cure 1d6+7 (well +8 I think with the Blessed Touch trait)
But if Purely for fun and Pathfinder books.
Reach Spell.
It turns your touch spells into Ranged Touched, great for those party members out of normal reach or for that undead standing on towers looking all gloomy and angry.
IF 3pp products are allowed, there is a super awesome feat called Mystic Healer. It has a scaling bonus on all healing effects: 1d4 at 1st, 1d6 at 4th, 2d6 at 7th, 3d6 at 10th, etc. etc. Really, really awesome for healer types.
How you would use Energy Body: It makes a good defense against Rogues and other sneak-attacking things. You still have weapons and armor, and if you're in the front line and you don't have iterative attacks yet, you can use a move action to heal yourself and still attack. You only get three rounds to start with, but since you only have limited lay-on-hands as well, it's still a boost.
If you're facing things like undead, rogues, swashbucklers, poison-using critters, etc. that energy body makes a good defense, you would use it as a standard action, then move up to the front line. They attack you, either hurting themselves as a result, or failing to get their sneak attacks off, or failing to deliver poison, and then you can attack and heal, attack and heal.
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How you would use Energy Body: It makes a good defense against Rogues and other sneak-attacking things. You still have weapons and armor, and if you're in the front line and you don't have iterative attacks yet, you can use a move action to heal yourself and still attack. You only get three rounds to start with, but since you only have limited lay-on-hands as well, it's still a boost.
If you're facing things like undead, rogues, swashbucklers, poison-using critters, etc. that energy body makes a good defense, you would use it as a standard action, then move up to the front line. They attack you, either hurting themselves as a result, or failing to get their sneak attacks off, or failing to deliver poison, and then you can attack and heal, attack and heal.
wouldn't normal rogues heal themselves from attacking her in her energy form?
I don't see them really hurting her, but while in her energy body, I feel a living rogue could with it's move action move through her and heal itself.
Wait, how did you manage a -4 Initiative? How does that happen?
@Kobold Cleaver
No dex and the deaf penalty to initiative!
It'll get better in a few levels time since the deaf penalty gets reduced, if Lyric is going Oracle heavy she will get up to lvl 10 for the curse effect at some point.
I'm all in favour of fluff feats - i'm on the skill focus bandwagon; EH is fun for familiars, claws etc.
I was about to suggest going for Stand Still, as it is a good way for a warrior with a reach weapon to keep enemies at an arm´s length from her friends. It is certainly the sort of thing I would expect a paladin of Shelyn to do. However, it requires combat reflexes and relies on attacks of opportunity, so it is probably not a good idea.
Generally, I think Power Attack will come in handy... eventually, and sometimes you need a good, solid blow to thunk someone over the head with (perhaps for non-lethal damage, perhaps not). Toughness will come in handy, but I think it would be fun to have her pick antagonize to start getting her enemies to attack her and not the rest of the team. Granted, you did say she´s nice, but maybe she manages to get under their skin by perkiness and disturbingly good cheer (the fluster penalties can end up quite useful). You can also boost up your casting side with things such as warrior priest or some metamagics.
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The problem with silence is it's a full round action to cast, like summon monster. So it will take the next round before it takes effect. So the caster will get to act 2 times before you can move up to him/her and lock down the caster.
Also, PFS is usually in very enclosed spaces, silence is 20 ft, so you're going to be as likely to hit your allies as enemy casters.
I was toying with the idea of oil of silence before, but it needs to be applied onto you by a familiar, so you can use your move action to move towards the caster and use step-up. It would only last for 3 rounds, so you would still need to take a full round action to get the real silence up.
Still not sure if that idea is worth trying.. it's all been idle speculation.
I was about to suggest going for Stand Still, as it is a good way for a warrior with a reach weapon to keep enemies at an arm´s length from her friends. It is certainly the sort of thing I would expect a paladin of Shelyn to do. However, it requires combat reflexes and relies on attacks of opportunity, so it is probably not a good idea.
Generally, I think Power Attack will come in handy... eventually, and sometimes you need a good, solid blow to thunk someone over the head with (perhaps for non-lethal damage, perhaps not). Toughness will come in handy, but I think it would be fun to have her pick antagonize to start getting her enemies to attack her and not the rest of the team. Granted, you did say she´s nice, but maybe she manages to get under their skin by perkiness and disturbingly good cheer (the fluster penalties can end up quite useful). You can also boost up your casting side with things such as warrior priest or some metamagics.
Well, even if Lyric doesn't use it, I know which feat my paladin of Shelyn's taking next level...thanks. :)
Even if you don't have a good Dex or Combat Reflexes, you can still use a reach weapon. Getting 1 AoO per round is better than none.
We've been playing lots of 5E lately, so I forget, can you make a trip or bull rush attempt as an AoO? I'm not sure how killy Lyric is, but that might be a way to mess with opponents without hurting them (too much).
EDIT:
That Antagonize feat sounds like a fun option, too. It works off her people skills, and gives her additional options. Win-win, right?
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Antagonize is interesting. Of course, Lyric's Sense Motive is laughable, so she'd never get that insight bonus to her check... Huh. Still, her diplomacy is so high that she might make the DC anyway. I really like it.
So at the moment, I'm looking at Antagonize (a debuff), Energy Body or Power Attack. The Energy Body is looking slightly cooler to me, but it's only 3/rounds per day for me as a third-level oracle, while Power Attack and Antagonize would be always there for me...
Thoughts?
We've been playing lots of 5E lately, so I forget, can you make a trip or bull rush attempt as an AoO?Trip, Disarm, or Sunder - yes, anything else no.
Still some really fun options. :-)
Just be sure to get some mending or make whole so you can fix the treasure you sunder! :-P
Also, at 3rd level, you can select Energy Body as just a regular Revelation without having to spend a feat on it. You get revelations at oracle levels 1, 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19. So your character levels 5, 9, 13, and 17. 21 if you go epic.
I would suggest skill focus; Knowlege Planes. Few things are more embarrassing that hitting a Devil with cold iron. Plus, it would allow you to get a Familiar with your next feat. A Thrush would make a wonderful backup singer for you, and be ridiculously appropriate for a follower of Shelyn. And of course, the eventual possibility of a Cassian Angel or Silvanshee Agathion sidekick is pretty awesome as well.
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Smilodan --
Alas, no more free revelations in PFS timeframe with my archetype. Instead of revelations, I get wandering spirit hexes which I can change each day... It's a lot of flexibility, and super cool, but if I want more revelations from my mystery, I have to use a feat.
Thaddeus --
You have no idea how tempting this is to me. Lyric would love a singing buddy, and actually looked at Skill Focus: Knowledge Planes. I've done battle with a ridiculous number of demons now. I'm starting to think that I should just give in an buy an estate in Mendev and be done with it.
Mort --
Even though it's a full-round, silence spell has been killer useful to me. I managed to take down a sonic attacking demon with it. I just wish I could get someone else to cast the thing. If only Mist had a better UMD.
Hmm
Oh, that's pretty cool. Versatility is awesome! :-D
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It's a really cool archetype, but complicated as all heck. One of the things that I like about the Spirit Guide is that it keeps adding options as Shamans get new wandering spirits. This archetype is the gift that keeps giving if you're a tactical player.
You should not choose the Spirit Guide Oracle if:
- You prefer a simple and direct build;
- You want four or more revelations from your mystery;
- You want another archetype, like "dual-cursed" (they don't stack);
- You are a flying Oracle, and want to keep "fly" as a class skill;
- You have a feat-starved build;
- You're the kind of person who will fret over not choosing the "right" hex for a given adventure.
- You enjoy a smorgasbord of options;
- You're okay with only getting a few key revelations from your mystery;
- You have open feat options;
- You're happy with trading your mystery's bonus skills for having all knowledges as class skills;
- You're a tactical player who can prepare several "go-to" options ahead of time;
- You can make quick decisions in game.
In my case, only three of the life revelations interested me, and I really wanted the knowledge class skills.
If I ever get to play PF again, I'm going to try an Oracle of Life with the Spirit Guide archetype. But I'm going to grab that murderous command spell at 1st level!!! ;-)
But my home group seems committed to 5E. :-P
wouldn't normal rogues heal themselves from attacking her in her energy form?
I don't see them really hurting her, but while in her energy body, I feel a living rogue could with it's move action move through her and heal itself.
No, it doesn't work that way. The character with Energy Body gets to decide who gets healed, and anyway they have to pass through your square, not just touch you, and it requires a high DC acrobatics check to do that to an opponent.
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RP posting aside, Skill Focus into Kn:Planes is an okay idea. Better shot at identifying the tricks of a monster type that's usually all about one special gimmick or another, never mind special defenses. The familiar could be nice, especially with a thrush. Diplomacy bonus, plus the ability to communicate for those sweet, sweet aid another bonuses. Plus it's fluffy as all get out.
Go for that if you want flavor, go for Power Attack if you want to secure your position as a reliable primary melee. Certain later-season scenarios (you're heard me whine about them before) have left a bad taste in my mouth, so I honestly think PA on a Str-based melee is as "core" as Precise Shot is on an archer.
Good news is you can get all of them eventually. Just focus on what you feel Lyric would most likely train in, given her own personal experiences.
Golden Legion's Stayed Blade would allow for capturing enemies rather than slaying them.
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I'll admit that I really want that little thrush familiar, but I also don't want to let my PFS teammates down. I had originally conceived of Lyric as healer and back-up melee, not primary melee, but she's been the main front liner in several scenarios that I've been in. If I take the birdie, am I letting down my teammates with a less than optimal build?
Hmm
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Between Smite, cold iron,and a silver backup weapon you'll have most forms of DR covered. Throw on an Adamantine and you have hardness covered. Now you have a means of dealing damage without needing PA to bast mode your way past DR.
On the other hand, picking up at least one good buff spell per Oracle spell level will make up for the PA attack penalty and the raw damage bonus will help a lot with tougher opponents.
The former of these two requires more book keeping and weapon swapping and knowledge checks (which skill focus helps) while the later is just simple damage.
Both are viable, both eventually available. It all depends on how much you prefer simpler combat versus complication and a bit of versatility.
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I already have an adamantine glaive, a cold iron weapon and a silver light mace.
I like spells better than melee. On the other hand, I'm melee capable. I guess that what I want is for Lyric to be good at melee, but I also want her to be more than just a melee character.
Does this make sense?
I'll also admit to a math-at-table fear. I'm great at roleplay. Awesome with tactics. But I suck at gaming math. I can *never* get the calculations right when the pressure is on. I'm afraid that I'll never get my value out of power attack because I'll forget to add in the numbers, or that I'll add them wrong.
I'm so bad at arithmetic under pressure that it's embarrassing. Especially when I'm otherwise an intelligent person.
Maybe I really need to look at this feat again. People keep telling me that it is the one critical feat for someone that does strength based melee. If so many people love it, maybe I should just take it, and try to overcome my arithmetic issues, or do pre-calculations.
Hmm
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It's really not critical for melee characters, especially if you are going for a "reach oradin" mode.
If you do take it, simply write down two sets of attack blocks on your character sheet. One with Power Attack, and one without. That way all the math is alwready done, and you just choose glaive with power attack or glaive without power attack.
What Imbicatus says.
In fact, if you have one or two relatively frequent buffs, you may want to make a stat line for them too.
For example:
Glaive
Glaive with Power Attack
Blessed Glaive
Blessed Glaive with Power Attack
I say as a singing paladin, go with it and belt out those tunes (skill focus (performance), even a few decent PC's should be able to hold up the other three corners of the game, so you should feel free to build as musical and thrush accompanied as you want. RP wise, I love the idea of your singing pally accompanied by a thrush (adorable flying backup singer, which i have used before in fact, and had much fun doing so) I say go for it. Optimal, nope, fun as hell, you better believe it!
Go for it! I think you'll enjoy it more.
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If you just want the familiar, you might consider familiar bond instead. Iron will is a better entry fee than skill focus IMO.
I thought about that. A +14 will save at level 5? Not bad at all. On the other hand... I wouldn't get any of the bonuses that come with the familiar.
Source Familiar Folio pg. 18 (Amazon)
You have learned a ritual that allows you to gain a familiar.Prerequisites: Iron Will.
Benefit: You gain a familiar, as the wizard arcane bond class feature. You do not gain the special ability the familiar normally grants its master, and the familiar does not gain the deliver touch spells, scry on familiar, share spells, speak with animals of its kind, or spell resistance special abilities. Otherwise, your total Hit Dice are used as your wizard level for determining the familiar’s abilities.
No bonus to diplomacy. No using the familiar to deliver cures to other party members... The other things aren't critical, but it would be nice to have those. And I have been fighting demons a lot. Knowledge Planes would not be a bad thing to have, and some of those planes skill checks are tough.
Hmm
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No bonus to diplomacy. No using the familiar to deliver cures to other party members... The other things aren't critical, but it would be nice to have those. And I have been fighting demons a lot. Knowledge Planes would not be a bad thing to have, and some of those planes skill checks are tough.
Hmm
Well, yes, but you can add all of those back in with Improved Familiar Bond. Besides, you would still need to take boon companion to unlock the higher level abilities with the eldritch heritage route.
Still If you are seeing the need for skill focus, you have the CHA for it.