Are Yoon's Skills wrong?

[Ravingdork]

I'm trying to make sense of Yoon's skills (at level 4).

Skill Modifiers Acrobatics +10, Bluff +0 (+1 to fool someone), Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (nature) +5, Linguistics +2, Perception +8, Stealth +12, Use Magic Device +7

Skill Ranks (24) Acrobatics 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 1, Knowledge (nature) 1, Linguistics 1, Perception 4, Stealth 2, Use Magic Device 4; Favored Class (kineticist) +4 hp

Wouldn't this mean she is 3 ranks short?

I'm thinking maybe Intimidate should have four ranks, giving her a +7 modifier before size mods. (Why is it listed at +4?)

[Yuri Sarreth]

The pregens dont follow the rules as applied to the world at large. Most of them dont add up right for one thing or another.. Just have to go with what the pdf says they have.

[Chris Mortika]

Yuri, that's very problematical.

Let's say I own the occult book, and when I attend a convention, I play Yoon as a 1st-level pre-gen, and I like the character.

Can I play her in the next slot, too?

It was be a tremendous advantage to the campaign if we could say, "Yes. Just register a clone of her as your 1st-level PC, and you're good to go."

Pre-gens used in the PFS campaign should be legal PFS characters.

[Pirate Rob]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Yuri, that's very problematical.

Let's say I own the occult book, and when I attend a convention, I play Yoon as a 1st-level pre-gen, and I like the character.

Can I play her in the next slot, too?

It was be a tremendous advantage to the campaign if we could say, "Yes. Just register a clone of her as your 1st-level PC, and you're good to go."

Pre-gens used in the PFS campaign should be legal PFS characters.

I think that ship has already sailed Chris...

Is the solution that iconics like Yoon (who have their only special non-player legal rules) shouldn't be legal in PFS?

[Yuri Sarreth]

Well Chris that is exactly what they are for.. "Oh this looks fun I'll play it.. Hey I really like that class, race, etc combo I'm gonna make me one."
You clone it but it is not always 100% match because it has the flair and flavor of the iconic but you get really close.

They are technically PFS legal they just cant be straight recreated as your own PC because of reasons.

Yoon of example skills dont add up and she has a young template that isnt legal in PFS for other characters..

[David knott 242]

Ravingdork wrote:

I'm trying to make sense of Yoon's skills (at level 4).

Skill Modifiers Acrobatics +10, Bluff +0 (+1 to fool someone), Diplomacy +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (nature) +5, Linguistics +2, Perception +8, Stealth +12, Use Magic Device +7

Skill Ranks (24) Acrobatics 4, Diplomacy 4, Intimidate 1, Knowledge (nature) 1, Linguistics 1, Perception 4, Stealth 2, Use Magic Device 4; Favored Class (kineticist) +4 hp

Wouldn't this mean she is 3 ranks short?

I'm thinking maybe Intimidate should have four ranks, giving her a +7 modifier before size mods. (Why is it listed at +4?)

Alternatively, maybe they allocated four ranks to Knowledge (Nature) and then forgot that her choice of element makes that a class skill?

[Tempest_Knight]

Yoon does not have the Young template, she is just size Small.

Her Con is to high for her to have the Young template.

[Chris Mortika]

Robert Hetherington wrote:

I think that ship has already sailed Chris...

Is the solution that iconics like Yoon (who have their only special non-player legal rules) shouldn't be legal in PFS?

I agree that Yoon is a peculiar case, because of her size.* But Yuri has said that "The pregens dont follow the rules as applied to the world at large. Most of them don't add up right for one thing or another." I haven't sat down with the pre-gens and a notebook, so I'm taking Yuri at his/her word.

That's the issue I'm concerned with. Yoon's exceptional nature is obvious. But if the ACG pre-gens or the other Occult pre-gens 'don't add up right' then they look like legitimate PFS PCs, but aren't legal to play.

And in that case, yes, they should not be legal in PFS.

*:

The solution, as I understand it, is for someone to play Yoon repeatedly, as a pre-gen, always with 0 XP, always with the same starting equipment. Every three play sessions earns the player a new 2nd-level PC of his or her choice.

Yuri wrote:

They are technically PFS legal they just cant be straight recreated as your own PC because of reasons.

What reasons? If you want to copy down Kyra or Seelah and use her as your PC, gaining XP and gold as she goes, more power to you. (Lots of people do just that.)

[Hmm]

Hey Chris --

I don't think it's intentional on the designers part. I think that they, like the rest of us, make errors from time to time.

Some of the errors I have noticed on pregens:

1) Power Attack on a Bab 0

2) Guidance Spell on a Skald

3) The complete lack of Wayfinders at higher level on characters that are supposed to be part of the Pathfinder Society. This makes certain scenarios that are wayfinder-dependent very difficult to play at Conventions where you might find an all-pregen table.

I'd love for these to get fixed, but I think that there are other matters taking designer priority.

Hmm

[Yuri Sarreth]

Well I admit I have not gone through and done all the math on each pregen but it was my understanding that there were many of them like Yoon that had special cases that a non pregen character could not take. One case being Amiri the barbarian. She has 2 combat traits and normally you can only have one trait from a type. Those are the reasons I meant. Yes you can play the same or different pregen over and over and save the sheets to make your own shiny new level 2 PC.

That said I think it would only be a small matter for someone to correct the small mistakes that dont match up like that to correct them into legal PCs. My local VL is versed in them and when new players have asked about making them PC he has pointed out the mistakes and offered ways to fix it.

You absolutely can copy the pregens and as mentioned its been done. Just make sure you double check them against the rules and with a player of experience that can help spot anything that isnt correct. It would make you bang your head to make a tiny mistake then play the character for 4 or 5 levels and then go to a convention or something and have a problem playing your fav character because they arnt legal.

[Jeff Merola]

Hmm wrote:

3) The complete lack of Wayfinders at higher level on characters that are supposed to be part of the Pathfinder Society. This makes certain scenarios that are wayfinder-dependent very difficult to play at Conventions where you might find an all-pregen table.

I'd love for these to get fixed, but I think that there are other matters taking designer priority.

Hmm

This one's been commented on before, actually. It's not an error, as none of the pregens are actually Pathfinders outside of their use as PFS Pregens.

[Hmm]

Where are they used outside of PFS? Don't the sheets say "Pathfinder Society" on them?

In my humble opinion, they need Wayfinders.

Hmm

[Jeff Merola]

The pregens are of the Pathfinder Iconics, which have nothing to do with PFS themselves.

[Jessex]

The wayfinder is not unique to the Pathfinder Society. Members get it for half price but even at 500 g.p. a wayfinder is a very useful item. Having an item that makes light at will is certainly worth that and enhancing one of your ioun stones is a major bonus.

Anyway the pregens and the iconics as found in sources like the NPC codex are not identical. The pregens as used for PFS play should be Society members.

[Hmm]

I know that the pregens represent the iconics, but I believe that the pregen character sheets were created for use in Pathfinder Society play and are only really used in this capacity, correct? Are there other events where they are commonly used?

If not, I agree with Jessex that all the pregens used for PFS play should be society members.

[nosig]

Many of my PCs don't have a Wayfinder... I fact most don't.

[Jessex]

This comes up quite a lot in my lodge. Many characters never buy any wayfinder. Beyond the things obvious utility and low cost it is the Society's badge of office. Shouldn't every Pathfinder have one after a few adventures?

Also there is at least one adventure where you absolutely must have one to complete the adventure.

[Hrothdane]

The problem is that too many adventures penalize you for letting anyone know you are a Pathfinder. I feel like the recent adventures that reward you for having one (one season 5 and one season 6 that I know of) are meant to counteract that lesson, but it's going to take some time.

I know very few people with a wayfinder that didn't buy it because they absolutely had to for their ioun stone resonant power.

[Pirate Rob]

I own a wayfinder on all my lvl3+ characters. Only 3/~25 use a resonant power, none being the clear spindle.

[Muser]

I think 4 of mine own a wayfinder. It saves a spell slot and has useful powers with the correct purchases, but that badge of office bullcrap is for grand lodge toadies and for them only.

You guys should've seen what is was like(and some no doubt did) back in season 2 and 3. The clear spindle was a godsend. Then season 4 hit and it's been the Season of the Almighty Confusion Spell ever since.

Well, I'll take that back, Confusion Effect. Seugathi, Aura of Madness, etc.

That said, I like it better than having CN spellcasters dropping Dominates(thanks season 4!) but only barely...

[Jane "The Knife"]

On the light effect from a Wayfinder. Sunrods are better... Way better IMHO.

30' vs 20' (double that for dim light, and low light vision doubles that again).

Costs 2 gp. Duration is in hours... And you can throw it away and not cry.

[Hrothdane]

My Silver Crusade characters usually just wait and get a Shining Wayfinder when they've got the free PP.

[Muse.]

In one game, we ran a bluff that we were an Aspis Team posing as a Pathfinder team - which explained why we had a few Wayfinders with us, and no Aspis badges.

"It would blow our cover to be carrying our Badges - so we left them back at Base.
"And we didn't have enough Wayfinders to go around, so we are making do with the ones we could get ahold of. Now, we need you to help with the cover story... remember, a gang of Pathfinders came to talk to you..." {wink-wink} "...totally not an Aspis team."

The funniest part was one of the players kept getting mixed up and saying she was a Pathfinder and the NPCs would just say something like "Yeah, I got that"...

Yeah - we were Pathfinders, claiming to be Aspis agents posing as Pathfinders...see we have a couple Wayfinders...

[Rosc]

Yeah, it's not too complicated for most of us to audit a pregen to make them as PFS legal characters. However, I think the problem is that most people who want to save time by merely copying an iconic won't have the interest (or even awareness of the existence of errors) to comb over the details and cross reference both the PFS rules AND character creation AND any noncore books.

As for wayfinders my summoner has one because Scenario. My other characters will get them when some tasty ioun stones become affordable.

[claudekennilol]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Yuri, that's very problematical.

Let's say I own the occult book, and when I attend a convention, I play Yoon as a 1st-level pre-gen, and I like the character.

Can I play her in the next slot, too?

It was be a tremendous advantage to the campaign if we could say, "Yes. Just register a clone of her as your 1st-level PC, and you're good to go."

Pre-gens used in the PFS campaign should be legal PFS characters.

As a five star GM that's obviously been around for a long time, you obviously know the answer to that and I'm sure have seen the same comments on this very character that the rest of us here have. Why even ask?

[Warwick Cailean]

Clearly, after Yoon's first experience as a Pathfinder, she had to grow up quick, so by her second scenario, she no longer qualifies for the Young template. Traveling with a band of murd- interesting characters will do that to you.

[LazarX]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Yuri, that's very problematical.

Let's say I own the occult book, and when I attend a convention, I play Yoon as a 1st-level pre-gen, and I like the character.

Can I play her in the next slot, too?

.

If the next slot has a fit for 1st level pre-gens, why not? Of course you'll start out the exact same way you did in the previous slot, but that still makes the answer a yes.

What you can't do is create a child character.

[redpandamage]

She isn't young, just small.

[LazarX]

redpandamage wrote:

She isn't young, just small.

She's eight years old. Even for humans that's considered young.

[Chris Mortika]

claudekennilol wrote:

As a five star GM that's obviously been around for a long time, you obviously know the answer to that and I'm sure have seen the same comments on this very character that the rest of us here have. Why even ask?

Yoon's size makes her a special case, and therefore a bad example. I have not kept up with the Advanced Class Guide and Occult pre-gens, precisely because we can't give them out to new players and then allow them to continue playing them.

"This hunter is great. Can I file off the pre-gen label and continue to play her next slot as my xxxxx-01 PC?"

"Not unless you buy the ACG, you can't."

So, I continue to advise new players to run Core pre-gens; they're simpler, and they'll transfer to PFS seamlessly. However, if the campaign's answer is "Even if you buy the resources, you can't play that pre-gen as a PC because it's not legal," that's a problem. If 0-BAB characters have Power Attack, that's a problem. If skills don't add up right, it's a problem.

[Jeff Merola]

LazarX wrote:

redpandamage wrote:

She isn't young, just small.

She's eight years old. Even for humans that's considered young.

Yes, but she isn't Young. She has a normal human stats except that she's small, rather than being a Human with the Young template.

[BretI]

Jeff Merola wrote:

This one's been commented on before, actually. It's not an error, as none of the pregens are actually Pathfinders outside of their use as PFS Pregens.

Ezren is a member of the Pathfinder Society. When asked about it, I was told it was on their list to give him a wayfinder next time they update the pregens. I most recently asked when the Occult Adventure pre-generated characters were added. I was told adding new pre-gens isn't the same as fixing errors in the existing ones.

Chris Mortika wrote:

So, I continue to advise new players to run Core pre-gens; they're simpler, and they'll transfer to PFS seamlessly. However, if the campaign's answer is "Even if you buy the resources, you can't play that pre-gen as a PC because it's not legal," that's a problem. If 0-BAB characters have Power Attack, that's a problem. If skills don't add up right, it's a problem.

I agree it is a problem. It sets a bad precedent. The errors are generally minor -- something you wouldn't be surprised to find in an audit of a player's character. Many of them could be fixed by rearranging the order that feats were acquired. That is the case for Hakon, who at first level (BAB +0) has Weapon Focus.

I have generally avoided giving out the most recent pre-generated characters as a GM because I don't want to give out a character I don't know how to run. When someone has a question about an ability on a pre-gen, I need to be able to answer it. I can't do that for the Occult Adventure or many of the Advanced Class Guide pre-gens.

If someone brings one to the table, I have to allow them to use it. In that case, I would hope that they already know how to run it.

[Jeff Merola]

BretI wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

This one's been commented on before, actually. It's not an error, as none of the pregens are actually Pathfinders outside of their use as PFS Pregens.

Ezren is a member of the Pathfinder Society. When asked about it, I was told it was on their list to give him a wayfinder next time they update the pregens. I most recently asked when the Occult Adventure pre-generated characters were added. I was told adding new pre-gens isn't the same as fixing errors in the existing ones.

I thought Ezren was turned down for being too old.

[Kyrie Ebonblade,]

There are a LOT of errors in the Iconics. Not to mention the NPCs in the scenarios. Some have way way to little in the way of skills or such for their builds.

[LazarX]

Jeff Merola wrote:

BretI wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

This one's been commented on before, actually. It's not an error, as none of the pregens are actually Pathfinders outside of their use as PFS Pregens.

Ezren is a member of the Pathfinder Society. When asked about it, I was told it was on their list to give him a wayfinder next time they update the pregens. I most recently asked when the Occult Adventure pre-generated characters were added. I was told adding new pre-gens isn't the same as fixing errors in the existing ones.

I thought Ezren was turned down for being too old.

He was. He got them to change their minds later.

[LazarX]

Jeff Merola wrote:

LazarX wrote:

redpandamage wrote:

She isn't young, just small.

She's eight years old. Even for humans that's considered young.

Yes, but she isn't Young. She has a normal human stats except that she's small, rather than being a Human with the Young template.

Yoon is opreating under special rules just released in one of the new Paizo books for child characters. I believe it's Heroes of the Streets.

And before anyone asks, those rules aren't allowed for PFS play.

[Chris Mortika]

Thomas, do you have a list? These would be character elements we'd have to change, in case a new player wants to continue playing a pre-gen as his or her own PC after the first adventure.

[kinevon]

Chris, at least some of them are discussed and listed in this thread.

[MadScientistWorking]

BretI wrote:

I agree it is a problem. It sets a bad precedent. The errors are generally minor -- something you wouldn't be surprised to find in an audit of a player's character. Many of them could be fixed by rearranging the order that feats were acquired. That is the case for Hakon, who at first level (BAB +0) has Weapon Focus.

Arguably the Mesmerist is probably the worst pregen I've seen. Its missing a class ability that basically is one line. Its got feats that make no sense for its build whatsoever (Feinting on a character that has worst to hit than my level 3 Mesmerist on the level 7). And on top of that Im pretty sure one of its Tricks isn't even scaled up to level 7.

[David knott 242]

LazarX wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

LazarX wrote:

redpandamage wrote:

She isn't young, just small.

She's eight years old. Even for humans that's considered young.

Yes, but she isn't Young. She has a normal human stats except that she's small, rather than being a Human with the Young template.

Yoon is opreating under special rules just released in one of the new Paizo books for child characters. I believe it's Heroes of the Streets.

And before anyone asks, those rules aren't allowed for PFS play.

Heroes of the Streets has no such rules.

Ultimate Campaign has rules for young characters, but Yoon clearly does not follow them. Her age, size, ability scores, and class all violate those rules.