The scenario (at least as I have it planned currently) would be as follows:
Days between the nights will require effort that can't be avoided or put off to allow to make up for the lost sleep. They'll have to go through combat, do many perception checks and disable traps (among other things that will probably require some level of concentration). We also have an anti-paladin and Magus. I'm not sure of their spells, the anti-paladin's smites and the Magus' Arcana require sleep to replenish.
Night 1-Attack by a gang at night. It happens at random intervals in guerrilla style keeping them up for most of the night (assume 3-4 hours of somewhat restful or non-restful sleep).
Night 2-Attacks from another gang, this one using stealth to find and destroy their food supplies. Rest that night will depend on their next actions (use survival to forge for more food, try to sleep etc.) but will probably be no more than 6 hours of restful sleep at best.
Night 3-An encounter with a feral animal, too much for them to take on even together, forcing them to run away throughout the night. Very little if any sleep, probably none that is restful
Night 4-Depends on the actions of the team but by this time they will probably keep themselves awake for guarding. (I'm assuming 4-5 hours of sleep taken in shifts).
Note-This all works as it does because this quest will be initiated by an enemy who will bluff his way into their trust (none of the team has a good sense motive). This guy will have an Everwake Amulet and convince them to allow him to be night-watch. He will be introduced as lacking combat ability so taking on the enemy alone isn't an option (which is why he fails at guarding and must wake everyone else) but in reality he will be the one leading the nightly attackers to the team.
So are there any rules on how the lack of sleep affects the team. I would guess they wouldn't recover nightly HP as they would with actual rest but are there any other outcomes to this? Would they have a constant fatigued state on them? Would subsequent restless nights cause exhaustion?
When linking something, use "url" instead of "link".
There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. The closest thing I can think of are the forced march rules which I think are good to draw inspiration from.
I would houserule it as such: Have them making increasingly difficult fortitude saves to go from fatigued to exhausted to asleep (the last step can only happen in non-combat situations).
CampinCarl9127 wrote: When linking something, use "url" instead of "link". Updated, thank you.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. The closest thing I can think of are the forced march rules which I think are good to draw inspiration from.
I would houserule it as such: Have them making increasingly difficult fortitude saves to go from fatigued to exhausted to asleep (the last step can only happen in non-combat situations).
I'll try the houserule out, probably with a little forced march to spice things up. Thanks for the information.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. See this FAQ.
TriOmegaZero wrote: CampinCarl9127 wrote: There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. See this FAQ. Good find!
Since becoming fatigued when you are already fatigued causes exhausting, this FAQ would imply that 1 day without sleep makes you fatigued while 2 makes you exhausted (no saves or checks). However, I still don't think there's any RAW for what happens after day 2.
TriOmegaZero wrote: CampinCarl9127 wrote: There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. See this FAQ. Nice find, thanks.
CampinCarl9127 wrote: TriOmegaZero wrote: CampinCarl9127 wrote: There are no rules for sleep deprivation that I am aware of. See this FAQ. Good find!
Since becoming fatigued when you are already fatigued causes exhausting, this FAQ would imply that 1 day without sleep makes you fatigued while 2 makes you exhausted (no saves or checks). However, I still don't think there's any RAW for what happens after day 2. I guess I could just do a little bit of house-ruling and make it so that they become fatigued on night one, can't recover from it on night 2 (night with the most sleep) but don't become exhausted until night 3.
I think that is entirely reasonable. As long as it works for you and your group, that's all that matters.
Hm. Having experienced many extended times of being awake, I can speak to the fact that after thirty or so hours, if you stop you have a better-than-even chance of dozing off.
Hm. Call it fatigued after 30 hours until they get at least 4 hours uninterrupted rest; when in a non-active situation, they have to make a Will save with a DC of (Hours Awake - 20) once per 10m to keep from dozing off. Sleeping for at least two hours will reset the DC, but not the fatigued condition; they will be confused for 5-30 (1d6x5) minutes upon awakening, with the exception that they will never hurt themselves (they will instead act purely defensively).
After 48 hours of uninterrupted wakefulness, or 72 hours with very limited sleep (8 hours total), they become exhausted. Except during times of immediate danger (i.e. an enemy actually attacking them), the character must make the above Will save to keep from falling asleep for at least an hour. (Waking before 4 hours rest means the same above confused condition.) In this case, the person only loses the exhausted condition if they manage 4 hours uninterrupted sleep, becoming fatigued instead and able to continue for an additional 12 hours before becoming exhausted once more.
Each time the individual becomes exhausted after the first, the individual receives 1d10 nonlethal damage which cannot be healed until they rest for at least an entire day. Eventually, they will collapse.
Note that all of this will result in multiple of your party being useless for potentially days at a time. Arcane Spellcasters can't recover spells without 8 hours of rest.
You could VERY easily end up in TPK territory by night 2, considering your plan is to throw creatures they have little hope of defeating even on a good day at them several times in there.
Fatigue and Exhaustion are a b!&** for many of the martial characters as well, Fatigue makes Charging (and more saliently for the multiple encounters you expect them to flee from RUNNING) impossible. Exhaustion gives them a -3 hit/damage and a -3 to AC, Reflex saves, etc. on top of that. It also makes Barbarians unable to Rage.
What this means is that you will have to strike a VERY careful encounter balance or risk having everyone die, and either way it may not be fun for the group in question. Making sure the former is true will go a good way towards preventing it from progressing from annoyance to actually being pissed off if the latter is true.
A magus require 8 hours of sleep and 1 hour of study to recover his spells and the arcane point, it is in the class description.
AFAIK all arcane spellcaster have that limitation for recovering their spells (study time can vary) and most of them have it for recovering special powers.
Divine spellcasters don't need to sleep but must meditate at a specific time of the day, generally dusk or midnight for evil deities.
Lesser restoration remove fatigue but don't allow the recovery of arcane spells.
Nap stack, if someone can cast it will help.
Rynjin wrote: Note that all of this will result in multiple of your party being useless for potentially days at a time. Arcane Spellcasters can't recover spells without 8 hours of rest.
You could VERY easily end up in TPK territory by night 2, considering your plan is to throw creatures they have little hope of defeating even on a good day at them several times in there.
Fatigue and Exhaustion are a b~!*& for many of the martial characters as well, Fatigue makes Charging (and more saliently for the multiple encounters you expect them to flee from RUNNING) impossible. Exhaustion gives them a -3 hit/damage and a -3 to AC, Reflex saves, etc. on top of that. It also makes Barbarians unable to Rage.
What this means is that you will have to strike a VERY careful encounter balance or risk having everyone die, and either way it may not be fun for the group in question. Making sure the former is true will go a good way towards preventing it from progressing from annoyance to actually being pissed off if the latter is true.
The guy bluffing his way into the party will be making and offering them HP potions to retain their trust throughout the expedition. Plus we home-brewed systems to keep the party alive so death isn't a concern.
In any case, the point is to keep them in a constant debuff to effectively change the game and force them to adapt. It adds difficulty without it just being a harder version of something we've done before.
Also the night 3 encounter may be changed to something more manageable, but that's the current concept I'm looking at.
Diego Rossi wrote: A magus require 8 hours of sleep and 1 hour of study to recover his spells and the arcane point, it is in the class description.
AFAIK all arcane spellcaster have that limitation for recovering their spells (study time can vary) and most of them have it for recovering special powers.
Divine spellcasters don't need to sleep but must meditate at a specific time of the day, generally dusk or midnight for evil deities.
Lesser restoration remove fatigue but don't allow the recovery of arcane spells.
Nap stack, if someone can cast it will help.
The Magus is part of the reason I'm trying this odd style of indirect offensive. Being the only player who played Pathfinder before us (He's effectively our GM but we rotate running dungeons) he made a character that is naturally much more viable than any of ours. He's a bladed-scarf dancer who uses Spell-shield and with his INT and DEX he can bring his AC up to 55 something like 20 times per day.
On top of that, he only recently decided to "get serious". He used to put up ice walls and then fire walls inside of the ice walls to basically cook the enemies alive for funsies. Now he decided to add what basically amounts to OHKO attacks and more defense buffs ( Baleful Polymorph, Interposing Hand) along with some other combination moves like wind-wall and flying to severely limit the offensive capabilities of most enemies. This isn't really issue for the other players but trying to make something that he can't break by pulling something new out can be. Especially when he's been able to going through areas without any damage. So it's partly to add a challenge for him.
Also, no one can cast nap sack. I'm not sure if they have something similar they can cast, but that one is out.
The Wyrm Ouroboros wrote: Hm. Having experienced many extended times of being awake, I can speak to the fact that after thirty or so hours, if you stop you have a better-than-even chance of dozing off.
Hm. Call it fatigued after 30 hours until they get at least 4 hours uninterrupted rest; when in a non-active situation, they have to make a Will save with a DC of (Hours Awake - 20) once per 10m to keep from dozing off. Sleeping for at least two hours will reset the DC, but not the fatigued condition; they will be confused for 5-30 (1d6x5) minutes upon awakening, with the exception that they will never hurt themselves (they will instead act purely defensively).
After 48 hours of uninterrupted wakefulness, or 72 hours with very limited sleep (8 hours total), they become exhausted. Except during times of immediate danger (i.e. an enemy actually attacking them), the character must make the above Will save to keep from falling asleep for at least an hour. (Waking before 4 hours rest means the same above confused condition.) In this case, the person only loses the exhausted condition if they manage 4 hours uninterrupted sleep, becoming fatigued instead and able to continue for an additional 12 hours before becoming exhausted once more.
Each time the individual becomes exhausted after the first, the individual receives 1d10 nonlethal damage which cannot be healed until they rest for at least an entire day. Eventually, they will collapse.
Interesting. I'm liking this system here. I'll have to figure out exactly how to work everything but I like this.
Watch out for a simple first level spell, Keep Watch, as that one, too, can make staying awake a non-issue.
kinevon wrote: Watch out for a simple first level spell, Keep Watch, as that one, too, can make staying awake a non-issue. Keep Watch wrote: Magus 1 ...
Well if he doesn't prepare the spell ahead of time then I doubt this will be an issue. Plus given the limitations (Any vigorous activity, including fighting, immediately ends the effect...) it shouldn't be that big of a deal, but I think it's still fair to say 'called it'.
Michael Grate wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: A magus require 8 hours of sleep and 1 hour of study to recover his spells and the arcane point, it is in the class description.
AFAIK all arcane spellcaster have that limitation for recovering their spells (study time can vary) and most of them have it for recovering special powers.
Divine spellcasters don't need to sleep but must meditate at a specific time of the day, generally dusk or midnight for evil deities.
Lesser restoration remove fatigue but don't allow the recovery of arcane spells.
Nap stack, if someone can cast it will help.
The Magus is part of the reason I'm trying this odd style of indirect offensive. Being the only player who played Pathfinder before us (He's effectively our GM but we rotate running dungeons) he made a character that is naturally much more viable than any of ours. He's a bladed-scarf dancer who uses Spell-shield and with his INT and DEX he can bring his AC up to 55 something like 20 times per day.
On top of that, he only recently decided to "get serious". He used to put up ice walls and then fire walls inside of the ice walls to basically cook the enemies alive for funsies. Now he decided to add what basically amounts to OHKO attacks and more defense buffs (Baleful Polymorph, Interposing Hand) along with some other combination moves like wind-wall and flying to severely limit the offensive capabilities of most enemies. This isn't really issue for the other players but trying to make something that he can't break by pulling something new out can be. Especially when he's been able to going through areas without any damage. So it's partly to add a challenge for him.
Also, no one can cast nap sack. I'm not sure if they have something similar they can cast, but that one is out. Level 13+? With bladed-scarf dancer I suppose you mean a Kapenia dancer but that you have access to D20PSRD and not to the actual book.
That "AC 55" seem a bit high. Can you explain how he get it?
Notice that:
"At 1st level, when a bladed scarf dancer is wielding a bladed scarf, he gains the canny defense ability."
fall under the "what wielding mean" debate. With the duelist wielding a melee weapon mean "actively use it in combat" (at least that it the generally accepted interpretation), so if he is not using spellcombat/spellstrike, he won't benefit from it while casting a spell.
spell shield don't stack with the shield spell, it is a shield bonus:
"Spell Shield (Su): The magus can expend a point from his arcane pool as an immediate action to grant himself a shield bonus to AC equal to his Intelligence bonus until the end of his next turn."
So,let's assume 30 int and 24 dex, bracers AC +8, ring +5, amulet n.a. +5, dodge.
Base 10 Items +18, +7 dex = 35 shield spell 39
If he is fighting in melee and spend a arcane point AC 55
On the other hand 64 K for the bracers, 50 k for the amulet, 50 k for the ring. 164 k in defensive items.
Belt +6 dex and headband +6 int: 36 K each, another 72 k.
We are speaking of almost all of the wealth of a 15th level character.
Pepper him with arrows and ranged attacks and his canny defense won't work (he is not wielding the scarf).
Hit and run, with people using shot on the run, darting out of cover and then hiding again.
to wear down his arcane point you only need to protract the battle, maguses tend to be "nova" characters.
Rynjin wrote: Note that all of this will result in multiple of your party being useless for potentially days at a time. Arcane Spellcasters can't recover spells without 8 hours of rest.
You could VERY easily end up in TPK territory by night 2, considering your plan is to throw creatures they have little hope of defeating even on a good day at them several times in there.
Fatigue and Exhaustion are a b$+#% for many of the martial characters as well, Fatigue makes Charging (and more saliently for the multiple encounters you expect them to flee from RUNNING) impossible. Exhaustion gives them a -3 hit/damage and a -3 to AC, Reflex saves, etc. on top of that. It also makes Barbarians unable to Rage.
What this means is that you will have to strike a VERY careful encounter balance or risk having everyone die, and either way it may not be fun for the group in question. Making sure the former is true will go a good way towards preventing it from progressing from annoyance to actually being pissed off if the latter is true.
This is, indeed, one of the biggest issues that arcane spellcasters can face and if a party never ever faces it then someone is doing something wrong. I'd recommend that you give them one night of rest after night 2, then resume your anti-sleep assault, this way they get the chance to KNOW that they have to conserve and thus they have a chance to start spell conservation.
Interestingly this is were a Paladin with the Fatigue Mercy comes in handy, but you have the anti-Pal so obviously it is an evil group.
^This is pretty good advice (hey we agree on something!).
Diego Rossi wrote: Level 13+? With bladed-scarf dancer I suppose you mean a Kapenia dancer but that you have access to D20PSRD and not to the actual book. This is correct and we're level 15 to be exact Diego Rossi wrote: That "AC 55" seem a bit high. Can you explain how he get it? I'm probably (seeing your math, definitely) off with the exact numbers so generally what I remember is that it's high (much higher than any other player) and he can do it many times a day. He has bumped only his Dex and Int thus far, has dodge and Harimaki armor. I'm sure there's something I'm missing here but that's what I remember off the top of my head. I'll have to ask him when we begin again (we are on temporary hiatus due to school)
Diego Rossi wrote: Notice that:
"At 1st level, when a bladed scarf dancer is wielding a bladed scarf, he gains the canny defense ability."
fall under the "what wielding mean" debate. With the duelist wielding a melee weapon mean "actively use it in combat" (at least that it the generally accepted interpretation), so if he is not using spellcombat/spellstrike, he won't benefit from it while casting a spell.
I've seen a lot of debate in the threads about this so I'm thinking I'll start another just to make sure nothing's been confirmed or changed. Regardless, we've been playing with this for quite awhile and our game has a lot of leeway anyway so we will probably keep it as is just because.
Diego Rossi wrote: Pepper him with arrows and ranged attacks and his canny defense won't work (he is not wielding the scarf).
Hit and run, with people using shot on the run, darting out of cover and then hiding again.
to wear down his arcane point you only need to protract the battle, maguses tend to be "nova" characters.
Well, that's part of the nightly "visits". It will be like one continuous battle across 4 days and nights.
General GMing advice: Always have a copy of your players' character sheets available for audit.
HWalsh wrote: This is, indeed, one of the biggest issues that arcane spellcasters can face and if a party never ever faces it then someone is doing something wrong. I'd recommend that you give them one night of rest after night 2, then resume your anti-sleep assault, this way they get the chance to KNOW that they have to conserve and thus they have a chance to start spell conservation.
This is a possibility but I'll have to decide if I'm going to do so when I figure out the overall projected difficulty of the expedition.
As it stands they will be getting a decent number of hp potions from the bluffing character (enough to maintain trust but not enough to overcome damage done) and there won't be a full boss fight throughout (the first 3 result in the enemy fleeing, the final one results in a former enemy creature they didn't deal coming in causing the expedition enemies to flee again (it's to show an increase in strength since they last encountered the creature) forcing them to flee while all are distracted).
On the other hand I still have to populate the dungeons with boss underlings and traps and account for hubris on their part (another pretty big issue). Plus I'm unsure of how difficult the bosses mechanically will be at this time.
Rynjin wrote: General GMing advice: Always have a copy of your players' character sheets available for audit. Fair enough, but I'm not technically the GM, I'm just running the dungeons. The Magus is the primary GM since he had already played the game and introduced us to it (he runs most side things like the shops) and everyone rotates running dungeons, caves or bad thing houses (we have an oddly large number of those). I'm doing a full expedition because:
A) I will be the actual GM for our next campaign since I'm making a full home-brew prison style setting and I'd like to practice managing everything (I see the obvious issue here)
B) My character, a cavalier, lost his horse to Plotline Death so to keep him from failing miserably for a week before being able to replace it, we are using the time they are gone as the mourning time. This way it explains why he's not there and allows him to "get back on the horse" for the next dungeon thing we do.
Michael Grate wrote: Plotline Death What have you done!?!
Rynjin wrote: Michael Grate wrote: Plotline Death What have you done!?! Forgot about all of those Phoenix Downs I was holding.
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