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The rules for the fly skill and the related checks have explicit instructions regarding what happens when a winged creature fails its fly check.
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Attacked While Flying: You are not considered flat-footed while flying. If you are flying using wings and you take damage while flying, you must make a DC 10 Fly check to avoid losing 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.
Collision While Flying: If you are using wings to fly and you collide with an object equal to your size or larger, you must immediately make a DC 25 Fly check to avoid plummeting to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage.
Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.
High Wind Speeds: Flying in high winds adds penalties on your Fly checks as noted on Table: Wind Effects on Flight. “Checked” means that creatures of that size or smaller must succeed on a DC 20 Fly check to move at all so long as the wind persists. “Blown away” means that creatures of that size or smaller must make a DC 25 Fly check or be blown back 2d6 × 10 feet and take 2d6 points of nonlethal damage. This check must be made every round the creature remains airborne. A creature that is blown away must still make a DC 20 Fly check to move due to also being checked.
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Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).
The paralyzed condition also explicitly states that creatures who are flying with wings automatically fall when paralyzed.
The question is, what happens to magically flying creatures when these things occur?
So, what happens to a magically flying creature when any of the above situations regarding winged creatures occurs? Nothing?
Attacked while flying -- simple enough, guess magically flying creatures (or otherwise flying without wings) don't need to make a check.
Collisions? Same thing, I suppose.
Failing a complex maneuver? Well, winged creatures who fail by 5 or more will fall. But the check is made as part of the move action, so you have to have actually moved to determine the DC and make the Fly check.
And if you're magically flying and attempt to make a complex maneuver and then fail your check, well, you've already moved -- do you reset back to your starting point? Reset to the point where you began your complex maneuver? Nothing at all? If you fail to make the maneuver, do you get to use the rest of your speed to complete the move action in some other way? If so, and you're now performing some other complex maneuver, then what? Another check?
If nothing happens, then why do magically flying creatures need to make a skill check to make complex maneuvers? Do they fail to move at all?
And what about the case of hovering? Does failing to hover while magically flying mean that the creature automatically moves at least half it's speed away from where it attempted to hover?
Example:
I want to fly straight up at full speed. This requires a check. I fail my check. I haven't moved, now I want to hover. I have to make a check to hover. I fail my check to hover. Now I have to move (because I've failed the check that allows me to not move while flying). I want to fly at less than half my speed straight ahead (5 ft step, perhaps). I fail my check. Now I want to fly at my full speed but turn greater than 45 degrees. I fail my check. Now I want to turn 180 degrees by spending 10 feet of movement. I fail my check yet again. Now that I've exhausted every complex maneuver, I'm forced to make a flying move action that isn't considered complex (outlined in the Check text for the skill). Is this how it's supposed to work?
The try again text says you may retry the same maneuvers on subsequent rounds, which implies that you can attempt other maneuvers on the same round after failing a given maneuver, so the above example seems correct. Magically flying creatures, it would seem, are forced to move in a way that does not require a check if they fail their complex maneuver checks, or else stop flying.
This skill has baffled me for weeks now. I am certain it needs errata to clarify how it works when a check is failed. What are the general thoughts on this?
Most creatures using magical Flight have near-perfect skill, which gives a major boost (which, again, doesn't mean that they're not going to fail, but it's kind of hard). Honestly, I would rule that if you attempt to do a complex action and fail, you can't attempt a different complex action instead. And for a lot of this, there are - or should be - basic consequences. However, if you are using magical flight (which is the core of your question), then ...
... nothing happens. You stay in place. Hovering in place is the 'standard existence' for magical flight, or so I would rule; movement is a question of 'climbing a ladder/steep staircase' or 'jinking while running', that sort of thing.
It is pretty simple. If you attempt a maneuver that requires a Fly skill check and you fail, then you default to the closest action that does not require a skill check.
If you want to move straight up or at any angle greater than 45 degrees, then you need to make a DC 20 check. If you fail, then you rise, but at an angle of 45 degrees or less. You may still get to where you want, but it may take more movement or even two move actions to get there. You may also provoke unwanted attacks of opportunity that going straight up might not have provoked.
If you want to make a 90 degree turn (which is weird in itself because there is no facing until you fly then facing matters) and you fail the DC 15 check, then you may turn but at a diagonal. Either movement uses up an additional 5 feet of movement, but you may have to make multiple turns to get where you want and that will eat up movement.
If you want to hover, but fail the DC 15 check, then you must move at least half your current fly speed. Again, this may cause other issues like attacks of opportunity or use of actions.
The problem is when you do not make the actions in a proper order of actions. For example if you take a full round action and then fail a hover check what happens because you have no more movement to take other than a 5 foot step. That is why the DM should have you make the hover check first. If it is successful, go ahead with the full round action. If it is not successful, then take a move action to move at least half your fly speed and then use you standard action, etc.
Does not magical flight operate as per the 'Fly' spell for the most part? If you fail a fly check you fail to achieve the task you were making the fly check for, so I would assume you would have to NOT do what you were attempting. In cases where it says a 'winged' creature would fall I would suggest looking at the fly spell to extrapolate what happens to a magically flying creature, which is basically like a feather fall effect.
...(which is weird in itself because there is no facing until you fly then facing matters) ...
I think they are trying to make the rules reflect velocity/inertia as playing a big part in flying more than actual facing.
Does not magical flight operate as per the 'Fly' spell for the most part? If you fail a fly check you fail to achieve the task you were making the fly check for, so I would assume you would have to NOT do what you were attempting. In cases where it says a 'winged' creature would fall I would suggest looking at the fly spell to extrapolate what happens to a magically flying creature, which is basically like a feather fall effect.
The effect of the Fly spell, for all intents and purposes, is the same as magical flight (Speed 60), but even the spell doesn't say what happens. It refers you to the Fly skill. The only thing the spell adds is that if the spell wears off, the target gently floats to the ground as if under the effect of featherfall.
It is pretty simple.
The fact that your answer is so different from The Wyrm Ouroboros' indicates that it isn't so simple. I tend to side with you, that if you fail your check to hover you need to move, or if you attempt to turn sharply and fail you still have to move but at a different angle.
As for the 90 degree turn, it really doesn't matter what the facing is. Think of a 5ft wide hallway with right angles -- you could be facing any direction but your flight path would require that you stay between the walls, floor and ceiling, requiring that you make a 90 degree turn at some point.
The problem is when you do not make the actions in a proper order of actions. For example if you take a full round action and then fail a hover check what happens because you have no more movement to take other than a 5 foot step. That is why the DM should have you make the hover check first. If it is successful, go ahead with the full round action. If it is not successful, then take a move action to move at least half your fly speed and then use you standard action, etc.
Yes, this is a huge problem. It's why I posted. I would like to think that magical flight (from the spell or from being a magical beast or whatever other reason) would grant you the ability to automatically hover for free but that isn't mentioned anywhere and it's not safe to assume as much (as The Wyrm Ouroboros did above).
That level of action tracking should not be required and I can't think of a single other situation in PFRPG where you need to make sure you make certain actions before or after others depending on the outcome of a check. Fly checks are made as part of another action, so you get to make your check to hover when you make a full round action. But what if you fail, now that you've already used your full round? Do you get a free move so that you aren't violating the rules for flying? That violates the rules for actions, though. So, do you fall? Do you stay in place, hovering, because the magic doesn't require that you do something special to stay hovering? My problem is that this isn't spelled out anywhere, and it needs to be.
We can even extend this to winged creatures: if you fail your hover check by less than 5 and you are flying with wings, what the heck do you do? Suppose you've full round attacked this turn. You don't fall, but you obviously can't hover either because you failed on your check. It's easier here to assume that you make your hover check to see if you can hover before you make your full round attack, and if you can't hover then you only get to make your standard attack action before moving (or you just decide to move without attacking). And maybe that's the answer. But right now it's still an assumption, and I hate making assumptions about ambiguous rules.
If it were simple, I wouldn't be asking. I see it playing out a few different ways, and varying from GM to GM depending on the interpretation.
It is pretty simple. If you attempt a maneuver that requires a Fly skill check and you fail, then you default to the closest action that does not require a skill check.
Actually, I agree with this, and in all essentials with the rest of Hendelbolaf's post - if you try something that requires a check and you fail, you do the 'next best thing' that doesn't require a check. For once I wasn't anunciating it to the best of my ability, but since I am in no way a system expert, Hendelbolaf's post is exactly what I'd been thinking.
Most creatures using magical Flight have near-perfect skill, which gives a major boost (which, again, doesn't mean that they're not going to fail, but it's kind of hard). Honestly, I would rule that if you attempt to do a complex action and fail, you can't attempt a different complex action instead. And for a lot of this, there are - or should be - basic consequences. However, if you are using magical flight (which is the core of your question), then ...
... nothing happens. You stay in place. Hovering in place is the 'standard existence' for magical flight, or so I would rule; movement is a question of 'climbing a ladder/steep staircase' or 'jinking while running', that sort of thing.
I think you are referring to 3.X rules that use maneuverability class (MC) to apply a skill modifier. PF has MC, but does not have the modifier for it. Instead, they usually give a racial bonus/penalty to make the numbers come out about the same as 3.X.
For example, the Fly spell gives you "good" MC, but that mechanically does nothing. There is no defined benefit for "good" MC or penalty for "poor" MC.
/cevah
Not quite correct. From the SRD:
Fly Speed: Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability. Creatures without a maneuverability rating are assumed to have average maneuverability and take no penalty on Fly checks.
- Clumsy –8
- Poor –4
- Average +0
- Good +4
- Perfect +8
The Fly spell mentions maneuverability in that it gives the recipient Good maneuverability (and thus the +4 to flight checks', and Winged Boots mention that they 'let the wearer fly, without having to maintain concentration, as if affected by a fly spell (including a +4 bonus on Fly skill checks).' All other magic items that give you a flight speed and mention maneuverability also give you a bonus (+4) or, in some cases, a penalty (e.g. lesser wings of flying, which give you poor maneuverability).
So spells and magic items a) grant maneuverability, which in turn b) gives you a bonus or penalty to your Fly check.
SRD, PRD, whatever.
Looking at all of the ways that give you the ability to fly, and the fact that the Fly spell (which gives you 60' of movement, or 40' if you have medium or heavy armor or load) at the very least gives you a bonus equal to 1/2 your caster level - by the way, what does 'MC' mean, I seem to be missing something - I deduce that the use of 'natural' in the Fly skill sentence is an error.
If something does not give you a maneuverability, then you have average maneuverability and no bonus or penalty. If it gives you a maneuverability and a specific bonus or penalty, then you get that specific bonus or penalty. If it gives you a maneuverability but no specific bonus or penalty, then you receive the bonus/penalty for that maneuverability - because, you know, the method is great, or it sucks. If your character's race has an innate ability to fly, then all of the above applies.
This is my take on maneuverability and flight speed, and the PRD appears to bear it out.
MC = Maneuverability Class?
I think you're right that "natural" is an error, but"Its maneuverability is good" could also be an error.
Feel free to FAQ it here.
Well. There you go. :P
I'd guess an aerial version of a 5-ft step would be in the 'hover' realm, myself, but there may be a specific ruling somewhere.
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I think you should make Fly checks before any action that you could only legally take if you succeed on the Fly check.
For example, to full attack you need to either "move less than half your speed" or "hover". Only if you passed a Fly check for either could you start a full attack.
Suppose you tried "move less than half you speed and remain flying" and failed. Now you must either move at least half your speed, or stop flying (i.e. fall). You can't try hovering anymore, because that's a subset of flying less than half your speed.
You could do the reverse: try to hover, and if you fail, try to fly less than half your speed (to do a 5ft flying step perhaps, so you could still Full Attack). But you're going to have to move, you can't stay where you are.
You could also start by making a single attack, and then choose between moving or trying to hang in there with a Fly check so you can continue as a full attack.
But in all cases should you make the Fly check before any action you could've only done if you succeed on that Fly check.
Aww geeze, not this thread again.
I want to avoid the pitfalls of that thread. I don't really care so much about whether a flying creature that is paralyzed can fly or not.
What I want to know is what happens when a fly check fails for a non-winged flying creature or PC (or when one with wings fails by less than 5).
What is the penalty for failure? None is listed, except for flyers who fail by 5 or more (they fall).
If the penalty is, "you have to fly in some direction to move the minimum distance your fly speed will allow without making a check," then so be it. This is important because I have a PC who flies all over the place and he has very few ranks in Fly.
What does move less than half speed (is it single move or double move) and remain flying entail? Does a 5 ft step count as moving less than half speed and remain flying, or does it fall under realm of hover?
if your fly speed is 60 feet then half of that is 30 feet, so a 5 foot step would be less than half and moving nothing would be hover.
The real question is what to do with the no man's land of 30 feet?
If you move less than half, ie 25 feet or less in the above example, then you make a DC 10 fly check.
If you move more than half, ie 35 feet or more, then you do not need to make any check.
What if you move 30 feet? It is silly but it is not technically covered in any of the above situations as the rules do not say greater than or equal to half speed or less than or equal to half speed.
I would personally put it in the no check needed range but it is another fun RAW rules lawyer semantic issue with the rules...
Ugh. Yeah, that looks like an error in the table. The check description says greater than half it's speed, table says less than half it's speed. All the more reason to get some errata on the skill.
One should specify [(greater|less) than or equal to]. I would say that moving less than or equal to half speed needs a check, moving greater than does not. That seems to be the intent, anyway.
The real question is what to do with the no man's land of 30 feet?
If you move less than half, ie 25 feet or less in the above example, then you make a DC 10 fly check.
If you move more than half, ie 35 feet or more, then you do not need to make any check.
What if you move 30 feet? It is silly but it is not technically covered in any of the above situations as the rules do not say greater than or equal to half speed or less than or equal to half speed.
Yes, quite. Similarly, what is your speed if you are rising at an angle of less than 45 degrees?
Yes, quite. Similarly, what is your speed if you are rising at an angle of less than 45 degrees?The real question is what to do with the no man's land of 30 feet?
If you move less than half, ie 25 feet or less in the above example, then you make a DC 10 fly check.
If you move more than half, ie 35 feet or more, then you do not need to make any check.
What if you move 30 feet? It is silly but it is not technically covered in any of the above situations as the rules do not say greater than or equal to half speed or less than or equal to half speed.
I think this is a little easier to calculate, even if it is a pain to approximate the three dimensional square spaces you are moving through. It's still calculated the same way, every other 45 degree rise (diagonal) is double movement, so if you have a speed of 60, you can move 9 squares at 45 degrees, or 12 squares at 0 degrees, or, for example, 45 degrees up one square and 11 squares at 0 degrees, or 45 degrees up two squares and 9 squares at 0 degrees. Squaring the numbers makes it easier -- as long as you are fewer spaces taller than you are spaces horizontally from your starting point you haven't moved at greater than a 45 degree ascent.
In any event, it's a real pain in the neck to actually do the work in play, though, and I wish they would simplify it to make flight less of a hassle. If ever there is a PFRPG 2.0 I hope flight is one of the things that gets a major overhaul.
Ugh. Yeah, that looks like an error in the table. The check description says greater than half it's speed, table says less than half it's speed. All the more reason to get some errata on the skill.
One should specify [(greater|less) than or equal to]. I would say that moving less than or equal to half speed needs a check, moving greater than does not. That seems to be the intent, anyway.
I think as it stands, assuming a 60 fly speed, moving less than 30 ft but at least 5 requires a DC 10 check. Moving 30 requires a check with an undetermined DC. More than 30 no check.
This is why I think interpreting intent is so sticky. Maybe 2 different people wrote the table and the descriptions, each with their own idea of where the threshold is. Maybe the description (or even the whole thing) was copied whole cloth from the 3.5 PHB, and whomever was responsible for the table forgot to fix the entry. Maybe they were both written by the same person, but at very different times (perhaps the decision to add the table was made weeks or months later, for clarity's sake). Maybe it's just a mistake. We have no idea.
It's still calculated the same way, every other 45 degree rise (diagonal) is double movement, so if you have a speed of 60, you can move 9 squares at 45 degrees, or 12 squares at 0 degrees, or, for example, 45 degrees up one square and 11 squares at 0 degrees, or 45 degrees up two squares and 9 squares at 0 degrees.
But if you're rising, isn't your speed halved (to 30 feet, in your example)?
If ever there is a PFRPG 2.0 I hope flight is one of the things that gets a major overhaul.
Hear, hear!
It's still calculated the same way, every other 45 degree rise (diagonal) is double movement, so if you have a speed of 60, you can move 9 squares at 45 degrees, or 12 squares at 0 degrees, or, for example, 45 degrees up one square and 11 squares at 0 degrees, or 45 degrees up two squares and 9 squares at 0 degrees.But if you're rising, isn't your speed halved (to 30 feet, in your example)?
Oh, right. So, if you're rising at half-speed at an angle of 45 degrees, that means you use double movement costs. So moving 6 squares at a 45 degree angle is your speed of 60 (instead of the normal 12). If you only moved 3 squares you'd have to check, I guess.
And this is why we need flight to be overhauled. XD
...by the way, what does 'MC' mean, I seem to be missing something
Per post #7:
I think you are referring to 3.X rules that use maneuverability class (MC) to apply a skill modifier.
/cevah