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*points to Tiny size, and nearby catapult*
Wheeeeeeeeees! and is gleefully launched at the wizard and gloms onto his head with the limb climber ability.
See, stuff like THIS is why I would allow the feat use.
Catapulting psychotic barbarian foxes? Yes please! :D
I missed that.
My bad.
I really like the concept of this feat use. Maybe there are situations that it can be abused with...
But who cares, cause... Wizards.
Oh, yes! How can we use this feat to make Wizards more powerful?
*laughing maniacally*
I missed that.
My bad.
I really like the concept of this feat use. Maybe there are situations that it can be abused with...
But who cares, cause... Wizards.
Oh, yes! How can we use this feat to make Wizards more powerful?
*laughing maniacally*
There's one in every crowd... :|
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I missed that.
My bad.
I really like the concept of this feat use. Maybe there are situations that it can be abused with...
But who cares, cause... Wizards.
Oh, yes! How can we use this feat to make Wizards more powerful?
*laughing maniacally*
Play a psychic. No components, ride on someones shoulder and cast spells as a "useless familiar"
I agree that you couldn't get out of fox shape until 1 min/level. However, circlet of speaking or wand of beastspeak.
A human has no inherent ability to change their form, so I would let you take this feat but you would be unable to use it until you gained some way to change your form (via spell, etc...)A human also has no inherent ability to hit two guys with one sword swing, does that mean you would let somebody take the feat "Cleave" but not let them use it until they otherwise gained some way to hit two people in one swing?
Are you saying that if I picked up a sword right now, and with no training, had two guys within range of me, that I couldn't hit both of them with one swing? Because I think you're mistaken.
Are you saying that if I picked up a sword right now, and with no training, had two guys within range of me, that I couldn't hit both of them with one swing? Because I think you're mistaken.
Touch yes. Hit? No.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I mean, really, what is expected function of this feat?
If this is a serious question, and I'm not certain it is, then the expected function is:
Racial Heritage Gnome -> Effortless Trickery
Being able to concentrate as a swift doesn't require tails, teeth, the ability to change shapes, or other things similar.
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Being able to concentrate as a swift doesn't require tails, teeth, the ability to change shapes, or other things similar.
Having racial heritage of a race which has physical characteristics like that might give you those characteristics as well.
They might just be cosmetic changes, but they would still make sense as conditions of the extra-normal heritage.
Think about it. Wouldn't it be kinda weird if someone with Racial Heritage: Lizardfolk didn't have scales?
The rules don't say one way or another what physical characteristics racial heritage grants. That's entirely up to the GM.
But to say it flat out doesn't grant any is pretty arbitrarily limiting.
If someone takes a feat that requires a physical characteristic, I'd say it's presupposed that the character has that characteristic because of their racial heritage.
If someone with gnome ancestry can have a gnome-specific feat that makes them really good at stuff gnomes are supposed to be good at, then I see no legitimate reason someone with kitsune ancestry couldn't do the same.
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ITT: people might go as far as saying human sorcerers shouldn't get bloodline powers unless imperious or arcane
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I mean, really, what is expected function of this feat?If this is a serious question, and I'm not certain it is, then the expected function is:
Racial Heritage Gnome -> Effortless Trickery
Being able to concentrate as a swift doesn't require tails, teeth, the ability to change shapes, or other things similar.
So instead of letting humans get options that are racially related to other races for thematic reasons, the feat should let humans...get options that should never have been race gated in the first place.
Because, lets be clear, that feat shouldn't exist as a Gnome only option. The racial prereq is nonsensical. If that's the sort of thing that you think is what is "expected", then the feat is apparently intended to allow humans to bypass stupid design decisions that arbitrarily restrict access to certain mechanical benefits based on incredibly weak racial tendencies. Which is itself rather dumb. Am I correct in my understanding that the feat is actually meant to be stupidity layered on top of other stupidity in an attempt to turn two wrongs into something vaguely resembling a right?
This is opposed to how others are running it where racial heritage actually means that the character is partly that race (a small part, nonetheless), and anything which:
a)Doesn't lead to complete absurdities, such as attacking with a non-existent tail, or;
b)Isn't explicitly disallowed by the rules (and it isn't, since the feat is in no way linked to Change Shape by RAW, and if you disagree then [Citation Needed])
is fair game, because it enriches character concepts while generally not providing much in the way of a mechanical advantage compared to things like Improved Initiative, Power attack or Metamagic feats.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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But to say it flat out doesn't grant any is pretty arbitrarily limiting.
I see no legitimate reason someone with kitsune ancestry couldn't do the same.
It doesn't grant a tail or Supernatural Abilities of the race because it doesn't say it does.
I see no legitimate reason it would grant a tail or other Supernatural Abilities.
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But to say it flat out doesn't grant any is pretty arbitrarily limiting.
I see no legitimate reason someone with kitsune ancestry couldn't do the same.
It doesn't grant a tail or Supernatural Abilities of the race because it doesn't say it does.
I see no legitimate reason it would grant a tail or other Supernatural Abilities.
It doesn't need to. It lets you count as the relevant race for the purpose of feat prereqs. The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities, just like they would with a full Kitsune.
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This whole discussion really is pedantic.
Balance:
Beast shape II is a 3rd level spell. This feat allows you to use that spell for the dumbest reason possible --> to become a Tiny animal without flight.
It's really not unbalanced. You lose spellcasting even with natural spell, wild armor doesn't qualify, your only attack is a 1d3 bite, you provoke aoo's when you attack medium creatures and the only specials you get are +4 acrobatics/scent. I guess you can fit through really small holes. Whoop de doo.
Being a Kitsune:
The feat requires you to be a kitsune and specifies that you turn from kitsune to a fox. Racial heritage means you ARE a kitsune as far as race is concerned.
Flavor:
Racial heritage means you have the heritage of a particular race. I see no reason why heritage of a particular race wouldn't give you superficial traits (not a capitalized Racial Trait) of that race or allow you certain abilities of that race (for instance... a tail, not to get into the kobold discussion torpedoed by some random designer talking smack).
Many forms:
The feat does not require you to have many forms. It requires you to be a kitsune, which racial heritage allows you to be considered as. That is fluff text.
Bite:
The feat does not require you to have a bite. If you do have a bite, you lose it and gain the standard fox 1d3 bite (JUST LIKE NORMAL).
Changing back:
This is really moronic. You don't need to speak in order to dismiss a self-polymorph spell. Even if you needed verbal components to dismiss Beast Shape (which is ridiculous), you don't need them for Fox Shape because it's an SLA and not a spell.
Shapechanger subtype:
Shapeshifter rangers, druids and shapechanging transmuter wizards don't get the subtype. Pretty much nobody does. I see no reason why not getting the shapechanger subtype is OMGMUNCHKINEXPLOITWIN.
Lawl:
I'd rule that realistic likeness works with Racial Heritage and Fox Shape... but only to impersonate specific foxes =P
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It doesn't need to. It lets you count as the relevant race for the purpose of feat prereqs. The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities.But to say it flat out doesn't grant any is pretty arbitrarily limiting.
I see no legitimate reason someone with kitsune ancestry couldn't do the same.
It doesn't grant a tail or Supernatural Abilities of the race because it doesn't say it does.
I see no legitimate reason it would grant a tail or other Supernatural Abilities.
No, they don't. This was ruled on by a Paizo designer in the epic Kobold Tail Terror feat thread.
No, they don't. This was ruled on by a Paizo designer in the epic Kobold Tail Terror feat thread.It doesn't need to. It lets you count as the relevant race for the purpose of feat prereqs. The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities.But to say it flat out doesn't grant any is pretty arbitrarily limiting.
I see no legitimate reason someone with kitsune ancestry couldn't do the same.
It doesn't grant a tail or Supernatural Abilities of the race because it doesn't say it does.
I see no legitimate reason it would grant a tail or other Supernatural Abilities.
The designer said that a feat letting you use your tail in a certain way doesn't actually give you a tail. If the OP was talking about using Realistic Likeness on a human, then it would be relevant, because Realistic Likeness refers to a Kitsune racial ability that humans don't have. Fox Shape, for better or worse, doesn't refer to the Kitsune Change Shape ability. It is completely it's own ability, and doesn't rely on any properties of the user beyond the prereqs, which racial heritage covers. It looks kinda like Change Shape, but it isn't.
Yeah, except that's not what I'm denying. You said
The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities.
Taking a feat does not just give you extra body parts. Racial Heritage (Kobold), for instance, doesn't give you a tail. That has already been determined.
Yeah, except that's not what I'm denying. You said
The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities.Taking a feat does not just give you extra body parts. Racial Heritage (Kobold), for instance, doesn't give you a tail. That has already been determined.
I was referring to Magical Tail, which explicitly lets you grow a tail.
I mean, it literally says
You grow an extra tail that represents your growing magical powers.
I was referring to Magical Tail, which explicitly lets you grow a tail.
My mistake; I stand corrected. :)
As for the OPs question, Fox Shape should be unquestionably allowed for a human with Racial Heritage (Kitsune).
Fox Shape (Kitsune)
You can change into a fox in addition to your other forms.Prerequisites: Cha 13, base attack bonus +3, kitsune.
Special: A kitsune may select this feat any time she would gain a feat.
Benefit: You can take the form of a fox whose appearance is static and cannot be changed each time you assume this form. Your bite attack’s damage is reduced to 1d3 points of damage on a hit, but you gain a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear as a fox. Changing from kitsune to fox shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
Racial Heritage (Human)
The blood of a non-human ancestor flows in your veins.
Prerequisite: Human.
Benefit: Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race. For example, if you choose dwarf, you are considered both a human and a dwarf for the purpose of taking traits, feats, how spells and magic items affect you, and so on.
Explicitly, rules as written, racial heritage (kitsune) allows you to take Fox Shape, and there is nothing in Fox Shape, aside from the prereqs (which have been met) that should deny the user the ability. Why is anyone arguing against this?
In fact, I would go so far as to say that you actually gain the 1d3 bite attack when you're in fox form.
Play a psychic. No components, ride on someones shoulder and cast spells as a "useless familiar"I missed that.
My bad.
I really like the concept of this feat use. Maybe there are situations that it can be abused with...
But who cares, cause... Wizards.
Oh, yes! How can we use this feat to make Wizards more powerful?
*laughing maniacally*
That sounds like it would be fun.
There's one in every crowd... :|I missed that.
My bad.
I really like the concept of this feat use. Maybe there are situations that it can be abused with...
But who cares, cause... Wizards.
Oh, yes! How can we use this feat to make Wizards more powerful?
*laughing maniacally*
:)
In fact, I would go so far as to say that you actually gain the 1d3 bite attack when you're in fox form.
You most certainly would. Polymorph spells grant you the natural attacks of your new form, and since Beast Shape II is a polymorph spell you'd gain the fox's 1d3 bite attack.
You most certainly would. Polymorph spells grant you the natural attacks of your new form, and since Beast Shape II is a polymorph spell you'd gain the fox's 1d3 bite attack.
In fact, I would go so far as to say that you actually gain the 1d3 bite attack when you're in fox form.
No argument there, but certainly not human form.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities, just like they would with a full Kitsune.
If you are serious, and you told me that in person, I'd tell you I don't want to play with or near you. ;-)
The feats you take with racial prereqs that you can now fulfill using racial heritage explicitly give you a Tail or Supernatural Abilities, just like they would with a full Kitsune.If you are serious, and you told me that in person, I'd tell you I don't want to play with or near you. ;-)
He was talking specifically about the Magical Tail feat.
Explicitly, rules as written, racial heritage (kitsune) allows you to take Fox Shape, and there is nothing in Fox Shape, aside from the prereqs (which have been met) that should deny the user the ability. Why is anyone arguing against this?
In fact, I would go so far as to say that you actually gain the 1d3 bite attack when you're in fox form.
I'm not sure about that since the bite attack is discussed before the line saying that the feat "otherwise" acts like Beast Shape II. So the bite might be excluded from the Beast Shape effects.
But if I'm not mistaken, half-orcs count as human for purposes of feats. So you could be a half-orc and get a bite using Toothy, select Racial Heritage (kitsune) and Fox Shape, and then you would have a 1d4 bite which Fox Shape would reduce to 1d3.
I never really noticed Racial Heritage before this thread. I could see playing a Human, Half-elf, or Half-orc and using Racial Heritage to get things like Aasimar Angel Wings, Tiefling Armor of the Pit, or Sylph Wings of Air. It opens up some interesting variations. I'm going to have to look back through the race-based feats and traits to see what other possibilities might appeal to me.
Edit: I just remembered that Outsiders aren't Humanoids in game terminology. :(
This thread has given me a lot to think about.
Floofy Anime characters! :D
Sadly, Racial Heritage only works on humanoids, not outsiders.
Still plenty of variety though! The infamous ones including, but not limited to
Racial Heritage: Gnome -> Bewildering Koan
Racial Heritage: Frost Giant -> Born of Frost & Icy Stare
Racial Heritage: Ogre -> Savage Critical
Racial Heritage: Kobold -> Scaled Disciple
Racial Heritage: Derro -> Derro Magister
Et cetera. Plenty of fun to be had, even without fox people.
EDIT: Confound you for realising the innate limits of the feat before I could complete my list of excerpts, Gisher!
Sadly, Racial Heritage only works on humanoids, not outsiders.
Still plenty of variety though! The infamous ones including, but not limited to
Racial Heritage: Gnome -> Bewildering Koan
Racial Heritage: Frost Giant -> Born of Frost & Icy Stare
Racial Heritage: Ogre -> Savage Critical
Racial Heritage: Kobold -> Scaled Disciple
Racial Heritage: Derro -> Derro MagisterEt cetera. Plenty of fun to be had, even without foxpeople.
Yeah, I just caught that restriction. Too bad. I had some fun possibilities going through my mind.
Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?
Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?
There's no limit on change shape for Kitsune and the feat doesn't list a limit. As far as I would rule it, it's at-will.
Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
How is this out of rules territory?
I would be inclined to rule this way:
You count as Kitsune ONLY to qualify for the feat.
You do NOT have unlimited shapechange (you aren't Kitsune).
Other SLA are usually 1/day.
I would say 1/day.
My opinion, not an assertion of rules.
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Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.How is this out of rules territory?Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
No, this is clearly within the rules of Racial Heritage. It does not require the change shape Magical Racial Trait to take Fox Shape. If it did, it wouldn't say "Preqrequisite:..., Kitsune," it would say, "Prerequisite:..., Change Shape Racial Trait."
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Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.
Can you at least bother to reference what rules are preventing a Human with the Racial Heritage Feat to take the Fox Shape Feat?
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Easy enough to pick up like a 1/2 orc or any 'human' with adopted [tusked].If you are thinking the alternate half-orc racial trait Toothy then it wouldn't work. Adopted allows you to take "race" traits, not "racial" traits. A race trait is a category of trait listed in the Advance Player Guide in the new rules chapter and they tend to be social traits (you were raised in half-orc society, you are familiar with such-and-such as a half-orc custom). A racial trait is one listed in the rules for building a character of that race and tend to be genetic (you were born a dwarf, you can see in the dark). Being adopted doesn't change your DNA.
Tusked is a race trait from Orcs of Golarion. So adopted works just fine.
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No, this is clearly within the rules of Racial Heritage. It does not require the change shape Magical Racial Trait to take Fox Shape. If it did, it wouldn't say "Preqrequisite:..., Kitsune," it would say, "Prerequisite:..., Change Shape Racial Trait."Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.How is this out of rules territory?Hey, how often could a human use this, if it were allowed by the GM?Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
In fact, I'd say that not allowing it seems to be "out of rules territory," as that would be a twist of the feat's flavor text to forbid someone from taking and benefiting from a feat they meet all the prerequisites for.
I would be inclined to rule this way:
You count as Kitsune ONLY to qualify for the feat.
You do NOT have unlimited shapechange (you aren't Kitsune).
Other SLA are usually 1/day.
I would say 1/day.
My opinion, not an assertion of rules.
Indeed, you're totally reading into the feat what's not there.
The feat grants you the ability to change. Not as an SLA, not as a Supernatural ability. You can just do it.
I'd say it would be fair to rule it as either an SLA or Supernatural ability, but slapping an arbitrary limit on uses is silly.
Interesting.
I would totally play this. 1/day I wouldn't want it. Unlimited, yep.
I see your point.
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My reaction when I come back to the thread and it's almost 5 pages. This has really blown up, hasn't it?
Except when someone asks a rules question, "Break the rule because it's cool" is not a correct response.
Depends on the GM. Since you're out of rules territory, I can't give you an answer to beat his head with.
Because as demonstrated in previous cases of this nature, there is no rules text to support the OP's assertation. The only defense of what the OP wants falls into "ignore the rule because it's a cool idea" variety.
You keep saying that, but you haven't said why. The closest rule I can find against it is the tail terror ruling where it says that you can't use a feat that requires the use of something you do not have.
Fox shape, while overwhelmingly similar to change shape, is not referencing the need to use change shape in any way. I've stated multiple times that RAI is probably a "no" and I wouldn't be surprised if our bringing attention to it caused some errata, but as far as RAW goes fox shape is telling you exactly what you need to know to use this feat without needing change shape. You can turn into a fox. You can use it as a standard action. It otherwise functions as beast shape II.
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The RAW on using it ends up a bit odd since the feat doesn't say how often you can use it, or how long it even lasts, and that can definitely end up with some YMMV.
But, I guess that's what you end up with when Racial Heritage has no guidelines or restrictions, and not every single racial thing is written with it in mind.
I guess a GM could just ask the player in this situation to provide him with the relevant text about frequency/duration...
If it is incomplete, the player has the option to take the feat, or not, as it is written.
No frequency listed? Frequency 0
No duration listed? Irrelevant, see previous point.
Obviously this is unclear enough to cause debate, hence, the debate.