^Oops, was supposed to put Torag's Patient Strikes where I put Torag's Divine Fighting Technique.
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The amulet of mighty fists can have naked special abilities without enhancements so they stack nicely with body wraps.
Ok, for special abilities they do stack, although the wraps work on fewer attacks per round than you'll actually have.
However, both amulet and wraps are substantially more expensive than a magic weapon. In fact, a +2 amulet and +2 wraps together cost more-or-less the same as a +4 magic weapon. So that they stack isn't a bonus to the esoteric, but a way to mitigate a penalty.
For example, amulet-and-wraps are 43000 for +5/+5/+5/+2/+2 whereas a plain magic weapon is 50000 for +5/+5/+5/+5/+5. That's a fair tradeoff, not a clear benefit for either of them.
Esoteric gets extra attacks from 2wf, I2wf, & g2wf. A regular magus can't carry 2 weapons and still use spell combat like an Esoteric.Where are you getting this from? As written, spell combat works "like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast"; so I don't see how this can stack with TWF.
Spell combat is the only the equivalent of the first 2wf feat. I'm referring to actually taking the 2wf upgrades for additional attacks. There are no upgrades for spell combat. Esoteric then has the option of using spell combat OR using 2wf line for more attacks & damage.
The amulet of mighty fists can have naked special abilities without enhancements so they stack nicely with body wraps.Ok, for special abilities they do stack, although the wraps work on fewer attacks per round than you'll actually have.
However, both amulet and wraps are substantially more expensive than a magic weapon. In fact, a +2 amulet and +2 wraps together cost more-or-less the same as a +4 magic weapon. So that they stack isn't a bonus to the esoteric, but a way to mitigate a penalty.
For example, amulet-and-wraps are 43000 for +5/+5/+5/+2/+2 whereas a plain magic weapon is 50000 for +5/+5/+5/+5/+5. That's a fair tradeoff, not a clear benefit for either of them.
How are you attacking 5 times with 1 magic weapon at the same level that a 2 wpn fighter is attacking 5 times?
If you are comparing an Esoteric to a 2wf weapon user then you need to pay for 2 weapons. You would also only be enhancing 1 weapon with pool pts.
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Spell combat is the only the equivalent of the first 2wf feat. I'm referring to actually taking the 2wf upgrades for additional attacks. There are no upgrades for spell combat. Esoteric then has the option of using spell combat OR using 2wf line for more attacks & damage.
Okay, so the trick here is that TWF + IUS allows you to make both main-hand and off-hand attacks with your unarmed strike (although this is at least somewhat controversial). That's a neat trick, and it's balanced by the unarmed strike's narrow crit range, and the fact that you're foregoing Spell Combat, which is the primary strength of the Magus, after all.
So you can either use ITWF for an extra attack and polymorph + Esoteric to boost your damage; or a regular Magus can use polymorph for an extra attack and spell combat to boost damage. I'd say the damage is comparable and the latter has more versatility.
For example at L8, the former gets six attacks for 2d8 (assuming haste, and noting that impact doesn't work on light weapons), whereas the latter gets six attacks for 1d8 and 8d6 for shocking grasp, and at a better crit range. I don't think this shows Esoteric being better than regular Magus, really (which is why it's rated yellow atm).
Two weapon fighting with Improved Unarmed Strike is not at all controversial.See FAQ from 2013
Impact is not from a weapon enchantment. Esoteric can add different special abilities with their arcane pool. One of those abilities is Impact so it definitely can be used with IUS. So in your example below
Lets make them both Int/Str so we don't need to factor those numbers in.
3d8 base from Monstrous P and Impact (avg 13.5)
1d6+8 frostbite (avg 11.5)
4 attacks (5 with haste)
+2 tohit/damage from armor
Average per strike = 28
Multiplied by 5 = 140 if all attacks hit. (With brawling also more accurate than blackblade)
1d8 base (enlarged as well)= avg of 4.5
2d6 elemental damage pool abilities = avg or 7
+3 black blade damage = avg of 3
3 attacks (4 with haste)
8d6 shocking grasp = avg of 28
+1 AC from armor
Average per strike over 3 attacks = 14.5
Average damage of Shocking attack = 32.5
Total over 4 strikes = 76 if all attacks hit
The Esoteric does about twice the damage of a BladeBound Magus and can more easily spread the pain over multiple opponents. The gap continues to widen as levels increase. It is one of the better Archetypes Magus has... just not cookie cutter.
Impact is not from a weapon enchantment. Esoteric can add different special abilities with their arcane pool. One of those abilities is Impact so it definitely can be used with IUS.
No, unarmed strikes are light weapons, so it's an unusable ability without an exception written in. It's not uncommon for Paizo to publish broken or useless and redundant abilities in their archetypes. It's very common to see illegal gear or abilities published for NPCs. Neither category of error actually makes these things legal.
Impact is not from a weapon enchantment. Esoteric can add different special abilities with their arcane pool. One of those abilities is Impact so it definitely can be used with IUS.No, unarmed strikes are light weapons, so it's an unusable ability without an exception written in. It's not uncommon for Paizo to publish broken or useless and redundant abilities in their archetypes. It's very common to see illegal gear or abilities published for NPCs. Neither category of error actually makes these things legal.
In this case it specifically states that the enhancement can be added to unarmed strikes. I think this is a case where specific overrides general.
"At 1st level, an esoteric can use his arcane pool to enhance his unarmed strikes as if they were manufactured weapons. At 5th level, he can use these bonuses to add any of the following weapon special abilities to his weapons or unarmed strikes: defending, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, impact, shock, shocking burst, speed, or thundering."
Two weapon fighting with Improved Unarmed Strike is not at all controversial.See FAQ from 2013
Impact is not from a weapon enchantment. Esoteric can add different special abilities with their arcane pool. One of those abilities is Impact so it definitely can be used with IUS. So in your example below
Lets make them both Int/Str so we don't need to factor those numbers in.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
The Esoteric does about twice the damage of a BladeBound Magus and can more easily spread the pain over multiple opponents. The gap continues to widen as levels increase. It is one of the better Archetypes Magus has... just not cookie cutter.
How is the blade bound just getting +1 from armor? Brawling is a +3 equivalent so that should be +3 AC for the bladebound.
Also not factoring in crits is a huge bias in the comparison, since the bladebound is a crit focussed build while the esoteric is very much not.
Plus I don't think the esoteric is more accurate since the black blade has free + bonuses to accuracy that the esoteric doesn't.
Also how is the esoteric having ITWF at lv8? it just barely qualified but doesn't gain a feat at that level.
Basically your comparison is very very skewed it seems.
The esoteric can't be int/str because of the prereqs on ITWF. Unfortunately that breaks the math in your example.
Nope. It works quite well.
Check out Artful Dodge.
It is a great feat for Int/Str two weapon fighting builds.
Two weapon fighting with Improved Unarmed Strike is not at all controversial.See FAQ from 2013
Impact is not from a weapon enchantment. Esoteric can add different special abilities with their arcane pool. One of those abilities is Impact so it definitely can be used with IUS. So in your example below
Lets make them both Int/Str so we don't need to factor those numbers in.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
The Esoteric does about twice the damage of a BladeBound Magus and can more easily spread the pain over multiple opponents. The gap continues to widen as levels increase. It is one of the better Archetypes Magus has... just not cookie cutter.
How is the blade bound just getting +1 from armor? Brawling is a +3 equivalent so that should be +3 AC for the bladebound.
Also not factoring in crits is a huge bias in the comparison, since the bladebound is a crit focussed build while the esoteric is very much not.
Plus I don't think the esoteric is more accurate since the black blade has free + bonuses to accuracy that the esoteric doesn't.
Also how is the esoteric having ITWF at lv8? it just barely qualified but doesn't gain a feat at that level.Basically your comparison is very very skewed it seems.
Brawling is a +1 enhancement bonus, not +3. The bladebound could have some other bonus than a +1 to AC but I wasn't going to list all +1 armor enhancements for a quick example.
I didn't factor in the crits because the difference is so big. The black blade would need to crit on almost all attacks to keep up with the damage of the Esoteric.
Most of my builds have Barroom Brawler for stuff like odd level feats like the 8th level thing, but that wasn't really what I was thinking. I just did a quick and dirty example because once again, the damage gap is sizable. In fact the BB damage is still +2 at lvl 8 also but I gave it +3 in the example.
I'm not even claiming that Esoteric is the best Magus Archetype. I'm simply saying that the rating in the guide is off. It should be a shiny blue.
How is the blade bound just getting +1 from armor? Brawling is a +3 equivalent so that should be +3 AC for the bladebound.Also not factoring in crits is a huge bias in the comparison, since the bladebound is a crit focussed build while the esoteric is very much not.
Plus I don't think the esoteric is more accurate since the black blade has free + bonuses to accuracy that the esoteric doesn't.
Also how is the esoteric having ITWF at lv8? it just barely qualified but doesn't gain a feat at that level.Basically your comparison is very very skewed it seems.
Brawling is a +1 enhancement bonus, not +3. The bladebound could have some other bonus than a +1 to AC but I wasn't going to list all +1 armor enhancements for a quick example.
I didn't factor in the crits because the difference is so big. The black blade would need to crit on almost all attacks to keep up with the damage of the Esoteric.
Most of my builds have Barroom Brawler for stuff like odd level feats like the 8th level thing, but that wasn't really what I was thinking. I just did a quick and dirty example because once again, the damage gap is sizable. In fact the BB damage is still +2 at lvl 9 also but I gave it +3 in the example.
I'm not even claiming that Esoteric is the best Magus Archetype. I'm simply saying that the rating in the guide is off. It should be a shiny blue.
Haha, not only are you wrong, when corrected you hold true to your wrong position. Boy oh boy.
Page 116—In brawling, change the price and cost to “+3
bonus”.
So that's a SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive item than you realized and it's making for +3 AC to the normal.
Crits bring the damage a lot closer than you give credit for since it's critting all the STR damage you're not factoring in and potentially a crit on all the spell damage.
Barroom Brawler is a once per day thing, so spend a round to prepare and you can ITWF for 1 fight. woo.
Also by not factoring in items and actual accuracy it's hard to compare as well, since the BB would be saving lots of money not buying a weapon that the Esoteric is paying extra money to get.
Seriously Chess??
Brawler has been at +1 enhancement for a long time and I still don't see a change in an FAQ. Since you didn't post a link nor mention that it had been updated last year you really have no reason to think anyone who hadn't seen your reference material would think you were right. Boy oh boy...
You do your own numbers from level 1 to 15 then. If you can't see the damage differential then you simply are not trying.
Bladebound is a top Magus archetype right behind the winner in my book: Hexcrafter. Esoteric stands neck and neck for second place.
Seriously Chess??
Brawler has been at +1 enhancement for a long time and I still don't see a change in an FAQ. Since you didn't post a link nor mention that it had been updated last year you really have no reason to think anyone who hadn't seen your reference material would think you were right. Boy oh boy...
You do your own numbers from level 1 to 15 then. If you can't see the damage differential then you simply are not trying.
Bladebound is a top Magus archetype right behind the winner in my book: Hexcrafter. Esoteric stands neck and neck for second place.
It's been +3 for over a year, that's quite a long time.
It's in Ultimate Equipment ERRATA which can be found here
Errata
Last Updated - 5/19/2016
It's right in any PDF or any year old book.
Which means you did no verification of stuff on initial creation, NOR when called out on being wrong. Before claiming you're right you should really check the sources available before holding to your position. The fact that you held your wrong position without doing any sort of verification was the funny part.
Like why should I assume that someone who's using that book and stuff from that book wouldn't be aware of an over 1 year old update to it? It's standard errata, someone with the book should be aware of it, not like a FAQ that you'd have no clue existed without a link to it.
That's like saying you're surprised to hear Aasimar's and elves get 1/2 level bonus to revelations or Aasimar's get 1/2 to bardic performance or that one can't use multiple quickrunner's shirts in a day or that the jingasa is nerfed.
I think you're the one that is simply not trying to see that the esoteric magus is a step down from the original magus overall.
OK, you caught me red handed. I used some source material that was a year out of date and didn't factor in a line of errata. It changes the numbers a whopping 10 damage per round. I am a horrible person for misleading you into thinking that....
Esoteric still does almost twice the damage of a Bladebound magus before crits. After crits it still out damages the BB Magus.
I am horrible and deserve your laughter...
Seriously?
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Ok, so here's what's wrong with your math.
(1) you gave the eso a beneficial trait, the bb has none.
(2) the eso spent three feats on artful dodge/TWF/ITWF, the bb spent one on intensify so has two feats open.
(3) the eso spent money on amulet/bodywrap, the bb gets a free weapon so has extra cash.
(4) CRIT RATE makes a big difference, as does the -5 penalty on iteratives. No seriously, you NEED to take this into account.
For the sake of easy math, let's give the bb weapon focus and weapon evoker feats (bear in mind that these are pretty weak feats, so he can do better), ancestral weapon trait, and deliquescent gloves. Obviously he's going to use Keen+1d6 from his pool instead of a flat +2d6. So hit rate is the same now, base damage for the bb is 18, shock damage is 28. He hasn't used the money that eso spent on brawling armor.
So let's do that math, shall we? I'm going to assume a 75% hit rate on primary attacks, -2 for using spell combat.
(65% * 3 + 40% * 2) * (28 + 5% * 28) = 80.9 DPR for the esoteric;
(65% * 3 + 40% * 1) * (18 + 30% * 11) + 28 * (1 + (30% * 65%)) = 83.5 DPR for the bladebound.
Bladebound wins. So we have just shown that a 'cookie cutter' bladebound deals more damage than an optimized esoteric; it's clearly feasible to make the bb deal more than this.
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He's also leaving strength bonus out of the equation. Presumably that's because both builds would have the same strength. The issue is that the esoteric magus will only get 1/2 STR on his off-hand attacks, while the Bladebound Magus will get full STR bonus on all of his attacks. It's a small difference, but thanks to hit chance and crits, it will work in the Bladebound's favor in the long run. Conservatively giving him an 18 STR at 8th:
(65% * 2 + 40% * 1) * (32 + 5% * 32) + (65% * 1 + 40% * 1) * (30 + 5% * 30)= 90.12 DPR for the esoteric;
(65% * 3 + 40% * 1) * (22 + 30% * 11) + 28 * (1 + (30% * 65%)) = 92.915 DPR for the bladebound.
So a little less than a .2 DPR gain, which will increase the higher the strength bonus, and particularly when it's an odd STR bonus and esoteric is forced to round down when halving it.
Bladebound can also spell combat for shocking grasp every round for a while, especially if you start throwing pearls of power and spell recall into the mix. Esoteric will have to spell combat Frostbite on round 1, costing him his extra attack from ITWF. On round 2, if he has hit with all of his attacks so far, he won't have Frostbite on the last attack. Round 3, he'd be back to spell combat and only getting 4 attacks. At 9th, things improve to where he'll have enough uses of Frostbite to cover all attacks for 2 rounds (4 on first round, 5 on second).
Anyway, what this is all telling me is that esoteric isn't terrible, and ft could be a fun build, but it certainly doesn't seem superior to Bldebound in terms of DPR.
Esoteric gets extra attacks from 2wf, I2wf, & g2wf. A regular magus can't carry 2 weapons and still use spell combat like an Esoteric.Where are you getting this from? As written, spell combat works "like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast"; so I don't see how this can stack with TWF.
Esoteric magus does not get an exception that would allow them to combine TWF with spell combat.
What I find amusing is Unarmed Spell Combat does, literally, nothing. Anyone can deliver touch spells via unarmed strikes.
If we're comparing the Esoteric Magus's TWF-ing DPR w/o Spell Combat to that of the Bladebound Magus, shouldn't the Bladebound be 2-handing his weapon for 1.5x STR to damage?
If we're comparing the Esoteric Magus's TWF-ing DPR w/o Spell Combat to that of the Bladebound Magus, shouldn't the Bladebound be 2-handing his weapon for 1.5x STR to damage?
Seriously, if you want to use unarmed combat as a magus you're better off playing a Phantom Blade.
Ok, so here's what's wrong with your math.
(1) you gave the eso a beneficial trait, the bb has none.
(2) the eso spent three feats on artful dodge/TWF/ITWF, the bb spent one on intensify so has two feats open.
(3) the eso spent money on amulet/bodywrap, the bb gets a free weapon so has extra cash.
(4) CRIT RATE makes a big difference, as does the -5 penalty on iteratives. No seriously, you NEED to take this into account.For the sake of easy math, let's give the bb weapon focus and weapon evoker feats (bear in mind that these are pretty weak feats, so he can do better), ancestral weapon trait, and deliquescent gloves. Obviously he's going to use Keen+1d6 from his pool instead of a flat +2d6. So hit rate is the same now, base damage for the bb is 18, shock damage is 28. He hasn't used the money that eso spent on brawling armor.
So let's do that math, shall we? I'm going to assume a 75% hit rate on primary attacks, -2 for using spell combat.
(65% * 3 + 40% * 2) * (28 + 5% * 28) = 80.9 DPR for the esoteric;
(65% * 3 + 40% * 1) * (18 + 30% * 11) + 28 * (1 + (30% * 65%)) = 83.5 DPR for the bladebound.Bladebound wins. So we have just shown that a 'cookie cutter' bladebound deals more damage than an optimized esoteric; it's clearly feasible to make the bb deal more than this.
This wasn't optimizing either build. Really spent 30 seconds tossing up an example so thanks for deeper numbers. However in practice much of the nova damage from a shocking grasp crit is lost. How does BB have a base of 18 damage? If you are moving an enhancement to keen it should still be 14.5.
I assumed the BB had the trait that decreased spell level on metamagic.
Anyway, all that being said, I specifically compared Esoteric to BladeBound because it really is one of the best archetypes. They are distinctly different, with different advantages and disadvantages. You will note that I have never said Esoteric was better, simply on par.
Based on your example I think the numbers should be:
(65% * 3 + 40% * 2) * (28 + 5% * 28) = 80.9 DPR for the esoteric;
(65% * 3 + 40% * 1) * (14.5 + 30% * 11) + 28 * (1 + (30% * 65%)) = 75.29 DPR for the bladebound.
Bladebound gets a free enhancement, but you can still stack Arcane Pool on top. Then add Black Blade Strike for more damage.
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Based on your example I think the numbers should be
Seriously dude, read the last couple posts by Thune, Chess, and myself.
What I find amusing is Unarmed Spell Combat does, literally, nothing. Anyone can deliver touch spells via unarmed strikes.
Yes, not one of their brighter moments. The ability to use arcane pool on unarmed strikes also does nothing (any Magus can do that), and tattooed spell also does nothing except partially compensate for diminished spellcasting. Of course, you do lose feats for the "privilege".
Bladebound gets a free enhancement, but you can still stack Arcane Pool on top. Then add Black Blade Strike for more damage.
I ignored the weapon enhancement bonuses because Esoteric can get an amulet of mighty fist.
Based on your example I think the numbers should beSeriously dude, read the last couple posts by Thune, Chess, and myself.
Seriously what?
Based on your example I don't see how your Bladebound base went from 14.5 to 18. Thrun is using your base formula, as am I to keep things simple. The problem is you subtracted 1d6, to include keen, but added another 1d6 for gloves to the base damage. This should should leave the base damage at 14.5. If you are adding in the black blades base enchantment while leaving out Amulet for Esoteric you still get at best:(65%*3+40%*1)*(16.5+30%*11)+28*(1+(30%*65%))=79.99
Just trying to understand what you did.
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Bladebound gets a free enhancement, but you can still stack Arcane Pool on top. Then add Black Blade Strike for more damage.I ignored the weapon enhancement bonuses because Esoteric can get an amulet of mighty fist.
The free +2 that the BB gets cost 16,000gp! for the esoteric to match.
And the brawling armor costs 16,000gp as well. That's 32,000gp for just those two items, at lv8 that's 32,000 out of the expected 33,000gp. Meaning you have no more money for ANY other gear, no pearls or belts or headbands or rings or amulets.So the BB has 17,000 since we're saying the armor cost is the same for +3 AC. That means he buys a belt +2 for +1 to attack and damage that the monk can't match, then +2 headband for spells and arcane pool, also a ring of protection and amulet of natural armor for +2 AC for +5 AC total, and can have +2 cloak of resist. This is 2 str, 2 int, 5AC, and 2 to all saves that the esoteric just can't match.
This all is just showing that you haven't actually done any real research and calculations but just some very biased spitball figures. NO actual full builds of both levels to compare to each other to see how they actually fair against the other.
Yes I have been very general. I think I have stated several times that I took like 30sec to list an example. I would remove Brawling as a +3 enhancement on Armor because that is an insane cost. Works nicely at +1 as it had been for years.
I think everyone knows a number of small items out perform 1 big item. Here is what things look like without spending any cash at lvl 9 (so you are ok with the ITWF). You are now free to spend on equipment how you like after that.
Esoteric
Trait +1dam UA (avg 1)
3d8 base from Monstrous P and Impact (avg 13.5)
1d6+9 frostbite (avg 12.5)
4 attacks (5 with haste)
Average per strike = 27
(65% * 3 + 40% * 2) * (27 + 5% * 28)= 78.1
BlackBlade
trait Magic Lineage: Shocking grasp (thought it was self evident)
1d8 base (Monstrous P.)= avg of 4.5
1d6+keen pool abilities = avg or 3.5
+3 black blade damage = avg of 3
+3 enhancement from BB = avg of 3
3 attacks (4 with haste)
9d6 shocking grasp = avg of 31.5
Average per strike over 3 attacks = 13
Average damage of Shocking attack = 41.5
(65% * 3 + 40% * 1) * (13 + 30% * 11) + 31.5 * (1 + (30% * 65%))= 75.95
[edit-this formula also assumes the elemental damage on the weapon can crit. It can't so the dpr is even lower]
As for the issue with magic items, constant Shocking Grasps every round for every encounter, cost pearls, etc... none of that is not factored into the DPR. Extra damage that is overkill during an SG crit attack is also not factored into this QUICK (no longer) assessment.
I get it. You don't like Esoteric. It is your guide so take the info as you will, or not.
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Weapon Evoker feat adds another +1d4 of elemental damage. He mentioned it as a feat choice to even out spending three feats to get two-weapon fighting/improved going.
That still puts it at 17, not 18. I think the other +1 is supposed to come from a trait, though Ancestral Weapon that he mentioned is a bonus to-hit, not to damage.
Edit: also, your math is off in the post above this. You're shorting Bladebound a +1 to damage. 4.5+3.5+3+3 = 14, not 13.
Weapon Evoker feat adds another +1d4 of elemental damage. He mentioned it as a feat choice to even out spending three feats to get two-weapon fighting/improved going.
That still puts it at 17, not 18. I think the other +1 is supposed to come from a trait, though Ancestral Weapon that he mentioned is a bonus to-hit, not to damage.
Edit: also, your math is off in the post above this. You're shorting Bladebound a +1 to damage. 4.5+3.5+3+3 = 14, not 13.
Thanks Ferious. If it gets to splitting hairs like this, it is fair to say both are pretty much on par.
Okay, so now let's look at the archetype.
You have reduced casting
You have monk IUS damage - "damage"
spellstrike a level early
no spell recall for being able to combine pools with monk's ki
lose feats for a few SLA
+1 ac at 7
And since the damage is very comparable to the BB we strike out the damage bonus and note that it requires 3 feats to achieve that damage.
SO the archetype gives you
+1 ac at 7 and 1 sla at 5
FOR
no spell recall, 3 fewer spells per day, no bonus feat
while having 3/5 feats claimed
do you seriously view this equal to the BB?
Thanks Ferious. If it gets to splitting hairs like this, it is fair to say both are pretty much on par.Weapon Evoker feat adds another +1d4 of elemental damage. He mentioned it as a feat choice to even out spending three feats to get two-weapon fighting/improved going.
That still puts it at 17, not 18. I think the other +1 is supposed to come from a trait, though Ancestral Weapon that he mentioned is a bonus to-hit, not to damage.
Edit: also, your math is off in the post above this. You're shorting Bladebound a +1 to damage. 4.5+3.5+3+3 = 14, not 13.
It is a popular choice to combine bladebound with kensai, granting both additional bonuses to melee combat and freeing up additional wealth. Enough to push one of your stat items to +4 with 4k left over.
The archetype is not compatible with Esoteric.
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And to be fair, out of the +18 listed earlier, 9.5 is elemental damage not coming from a spell and should not be multiplied on a crit. That will likely even things out a little more. And Weapon Evoker can't be used in the same round you use Arcane Pool to enhance the weapon, so that lowers round 1 damage for the Bladebound a little bit. Not as much as missing an entire attack for esoteric while they get frostbite going.
What's really making the difference is frostbite vs shocking grasp. The +level static modifier means frostbite with four attacks from a Bladebound would do 4d6+36 (avg 50), vs 9d6 (avg 31.5) from shocking grasp. The Bladebound could elect to use Frostbite, and its damage should jump. On my phone, so doing the calculation is difficult. I should probably be able to do math in my head, but given the various mistakes in this discussion, that would probably just confuse things further.
Okay, so now let's look at the archetype.
You have reduced casting
You have monk IUS damage - "damage"
spellstrike a level early
no spell recall for being able to combine pools with monk's ki
lose feats for a few SLA
+1 ac at 7And since the damage is very comparable to the BB we strike out the damage bonus and note that it requires 3 feats to achieve that damage.
SO the archetype gives you
+1 ac at 7 and 1 sla at 5
FOR
no spell recall, 3 fewer spells per day, no bonus feat
while having 3/5 feats claimeddo you seriously view this equal to the BB?
Damage is only a wash up to lvl 13 or 15 when Esoteric pulls away from BB. A SG magus needs Intensify so Esoteric is down 2 feats not 3. Many BB's are dex based so they are not down any feats to those builds. Frosbite builds don't need to cast as many spells as SG builds so no recall hurts less. Frosbite is more effective on an ITWF build and it debuffs while SG doesn't. SG Magus lose the bulk of their dpr when facing an enemy with electric resist or immunity, which happens often at higher levels. Esoteric has better base damage to deal with those situations more easily. BB loses Pool pts on Int first builds and need to spend more pool points to keep dpr on par with Esoterics.
All this to say, yes I think Esoteric is on par with BB and better than many other archetypes.
You know that BB can go the Frostbite route as well right? That's not an advantage of Esoteric.
Also 2 feats is equivalent to 3 levels of difference, that's alot man.
Yes BB can hit 3 times with Frostbite but an Esoteric will hit 4 times.
[edit:...and only on the first round. After that they can't spell combat and can only swing twice.]| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The point is, You have 1 specific esoteric build that is able to keep up, 1 build of an archetype doesn't make the overall archetype better than others. BB have the option of going dex based and not losing out on damage to gain more AC and initiative and reflex saves that yours can't choose to do. BB don't need to rely on shocking grasp every round, but if factoring in shocking grasp with metamagic traits then he'd have potential access to quicken shocking grasps for more damage in a nuke round.
Also you're factoring in having up already Monstrous Physique which is a bigger buff for you but only minutes per use and limited times you can do it per day.
Basically 1 build that can keep up doesn't make the archetype that tier. Since the other archetype can have many different builds that are all roughly equal to each other it's a better archetype. If your archetype varies in build ideas then it quickly loses to BB.
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You know that BB can go the Frostbite route as well right? That's not an advantage of Esoteric.
Also 2 feats is equivalent to 3 levels of difference, that's alot man.
Yes BB can hit 3 times with Frostbite but an Esoteric will hit 4 times.
[edit:...and only on the first round. After that they can't spell combat and can only swing twice.]
Sure they can, they can swing twice and then cast their spell of like shocking grasp. Sure they lose some potential rounds of frostbite, but their damage is much higher.
That turns 18d6 ~63 over 2 rounds and 2 spells into 14d6+45 ~94 for the same rounds and spells. Pushing it's DPR quite a bit higher.
Also as mentioned before by someone, you can only TWF every other round before you need to spell combat again with haste. This BB can pull it's combo the same with haste. Thus his DPR goes up a lot, while yours decreases due to the need to miss out on an attack every other round that was needed to keep up with the original DPR.
Also still not adding in the STR of the builds when factoring in crits is still a disservice to the comparison, unless you can show that the extra str for the extra attacks someone is keeping up with the extra damage that the crits are doing it'll make the crit build higher.
Not just one build. There are lots of Style Feat options to mix things up. As I mentioned this was a quick 30 second example with no real optimization.
Boar
Cudgeler
Jabbing
Pummling
and with some work Snake
can all be optimized to create different styles of play and strong builds.
As for Monstrous P. Only incorporated large size so could just as easily have been Enlarge Person.
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At the levels being discussed, you actually have to use Enlarge Person instead of Monstrous Physique. Magus doesn't get 4th level spells until 10th level, and you need Monstrous Physique II in order to turn into a large monstrous humanoid. If all you're wanting is the size increase, Enlarge Person is the better pre-buff. Not as good to buff with in combat, due to the 1 round casting time.
I think this discussion has probably gotten to the point where it could/should move to its own thread. It's really getting into minutae of builds, and we probably shouldn't clog up Kurald's guide thread with post after post of math.
You know that BB can go the Frostbite route as well right? That's not an advantage of Esoteric.
Also 2 feats is equivalent to 3 levels of difference, that's alot man.
Yes BB can hit 3 times with Frostbite but an Esoteric will hit 4 times.
[edit:...and only on the first round. After that they can't spell combat and can only swing twice.]Sure they can, they can swing twice and then cast their spell of like shocking grasp. Sure they lose some potential rounds of frostbite, but their damage is much higher.
That turns 18d6 ~63 over 2 rounds and 2 spells into 14d6+45 ~94 for the same rounds and spells. Pushing it's DPR quite a bit higher.
Also as mentioned before by someone, you can only TWF every other round before you need to spell combat again with haste. This BB can pull it's combo the same with haste. Thus his DPR goes up a lot, while yours decreases due to the need to miss out on an attack every other round that was needed to keep up with the original DPR.
Also still not adding in the STR of the builds when factoring in crits is still a disservice to the comparison, unless you can show that the extra str for the extra attacks someone is keeping up with the extra damage that the crits are doing it'll make the crit build higher.
That is a nice tactic to get an extra attack with spell combat in a pinch on an FB build. Will remember it.
There are many options, buids and tactics that haven't been laid out in any of these scenarios. Esoteric doesn't play like a straight Magus but when playing to its strengths it is every bit as good as other archetypes. I have made my case and at this point happy to agree to disagree.
Would any of the advanced armor or weapon training be of good use for the magus? I think maybe armor specialization for heavy armor magi.
I personally like Warrior Spirit, since it gives you access to any weapon ability, which is pretty awesome, and it negates some of the downside of going Myrmidarch, since you don't need to select any of the Arcana that give you extra choices (Ghost Blade, Bane Blade, Planar Hunter & Devoted Blade all become obsolete).
Then there's options like Fighter's Reflex (& if you have Bravery through Variant Multiclassing, Armed Bravery) that boosts your saving throws. Abundant Tactics + Barroom Brawler also gives you free combat feats (and for that matter, so does Warrior Spirit when combined with the "Training" weapon enchantment) along the vein of Martial Flexibility.
Generally, there's a ton of good stuff if you look.
My take on some of this thread, not to mention many others: toss the "rp" out of "rpg". It doesn't matter. Only the numbers matter.
Not the way I'd play the game. Maybe that's just me.
What I find amusing is Unarmed Spell Combat does, literally, nothing. Anyone can deliver touch spells via unarmed strikes.Yes, not one of their brighter moments. The ability to use arcane pool on unarmed strikes also does nothing (any Magus can do that), and tattooed spell also does nothing except partially compensate for diminished spellcasting. Of course, you do lose feats for the "privilege".
I'm not sure the vanilla Spellstrike works on unarmed attacks without dipping monk or brawler. The Spellstrike description says "...he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack." IUS means you don't provoke attacks of opportunity and can deal lethal damage, but don't allow you to count your unarmed strikes as weapons like the monk and brawler features do.
That being said, a dip in brawler might end up with a better unarmed build than the Esoteric. You don't quite lose a spell a level, but you don't get the SLAs. You also don't lose Spell Recall, which is probably a little better. And, as a bonus, you could take the Mutagenic Mauler brawler archetype to get a Mutagen.
I really like the idea of the Esoteric, but the execution is lacking.
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We all agree that more attacks are good. That's why the eso pays through the nose for the ability to have five attacks per round. But you know what gives five attacks per round at no cost? Monstrous Physique I. For that matter, Beast Shape II gives a whopping nine attacks well before GTWF comes online.
Damage is only a wash up to lvl 13 or 15 when Esoteric pulls away from BB. A SG magus needs Intensify so Esoteric is down 2 feats not 3.
Well, I'm glad we're agreeing that the damage is more-or-less equal, rather than twice as much as you previously claimed. However, the bladebound does this for free, whereas the eso has to invest most his feats and all of his WBL to keep up (and loses bonus feats, spell recall, and spell slots to boot!) So the point is that the eso build is optimized whereas the bladebound is 'cookie-cutter'; or as Chess puts it,
Basically 1 build that can keep up doesn't make the archetype that tier. Since the other archetype can have many different builds that are all roughly equal to each other it's a better archetype. If your archetype varies in build ideas then it quickly loses to BB.
That shows that the bladebound is a top-notch archetype and the eso is decidedly not. For instance, as Ferious and Jurassic point out, an easy way to up the bb's damage is by using Frostbite, which saves yet another feat. I really don't see the point in arguing about DPR any futher, so to answer your questions the bb was using deliquescent gloves (since he had a ton of cash left over), and my formula does account for the fact that flaming/shock don't double on a crit.
I'm not sure the vanilla Spellstrike works on unarmed attacks without dipping monk or brawler.
It does if you wear gauntlets.
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I'm not sure the vanilla Spellstrike works on unarmed attacks without dipping monk or brawler.What I find amusing is Unarmed Spell Combat does, literally, nothing. Anyone can deliver touch spells via unarmed strikes.Yes, not one of their brighter moments. The ability to use arcane pool on unarmed strikes also does nothing (any Magus can do that), and tattooed spell also does nothing except partially compensate for diminished spellcasting. Of course, you do lose feats for the "privilege".
Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges.
We all agree that more attacks are good. That's why the eso pays through the nose for the ability to have five attacks per round. But you know what gives five attacks per round at no cost? Monstrous Physique I. For that matter, Beast Shape II gives a whopping nine attacks well before GTWF comes online.
Damage is only a wash up to lvl 13 or 15 when Esoteric pulls away from BB. A SG magus needs Intensify so Esoteric is down 2 feats not 3.Well, I'm glad we're agreeing that the damage is more-or-less equal, rather than twice as much as you previously claimed. However, the bladebound does this for free, whereas the eso has to invest most his feats and all of his WBL to keep up (and loses bonus feats, spell recall, and spell slots to boot!) So the point is that the eso build is optimized whereas the bladebound is 'cookie-cutter'; or as Chess puts it,
Basically 1 build that can keep up doesn't make the archetype that tier. Since the other archetype can have many different builds that are all roughly equal to each other it's a better archetype. If your archetype varies in build ideas then it quickly loses to BB.That shows that the bladebound is a top-notch archetype and the eso is decidedly not. For instance, as Ferious and Jurassic point out, an easy way to up the bb's damage is by using Frostbite, which saves yet another feat. I really don't see the point in arguing about DPR any futher, so to answer your questions the bb was using deliquescent gloves (since he had a ton of cash left over), and my formula does account for the fact that flaming/shock don't double on a crit.
I'm not sure the vanilla Spellstrike works on unarmed attacks without dipping monk or brawler.It does if you wear gauntlets.
1. No the Esoteric was not optimized. It was basic for the archetype. The archetype itself simply is not a cookie cutter Magus.
2. Str based Bladebound doesn't keep up for free. It does at the cost of 1 feat and many extra pool points, pearls, and is limited to a few encounters per day.3. A Dex based BladeBounds must spend 3 feats to keep up in addition to the other str magus costs.
4. Before 13th lvl the Esoteric is still does more damage against a broader range of targets than a BB but the difference is small enough to call it a wash. After lvl 13 the BB gets left behind.
5. You do realize that Natural Attacks stack with iterative attacks and that includes twf. It was intentionally left out because it speaks to a very specific build rather than general numbers. Your argument for Monstrous P. further works in favor of Esoteric.
Those are the facts. Whether it is "top-notch" I guess will vary from player to player.
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Just to answer the question of whether a Blade Bound is top notch. I have a strength blade bound magus in PFS built using this guide for guidance I am thoroughly enjoying. Having fun is more important than DPR.