Enough is Enough

[JPSTOD]

Best of Luck to everyone who entered but I gotta say enough is enough when it comes to Voting...

First....I really don't have the time to sit and be forced to wait for an imposed time limit to vote especially with the Lag involved in Loading and Voting...really ain't worth a Tagline on my Profile

Second.....So Far I have not been impressed with any of the items I have seen so far. Out of all the items I saved 3 so far as possible use items and 1 Will use...and some I wish there was a Reject item button and I really don't want to sit and wait to see an Item for the 7th time or more time. I tried to be impartial and judge the item on the guidelines of the contest. But I want to judge all the items not just a random selection over and over. Not because I want to win but because I want to know what exactly others are inspired to make and compare my item to other entries. It is a waste of time sitting through the Lag and Loading just to see same items over and over

Maybe in the Future they could just do each item with a No, Maybe, Yes Button if you would want to use the item in your Campaign...Or just have a panel of Judges do the Voting...

If by a miracle I make it to round 2 it will be a complete surprise..

Maybe in round 2 I can pick up some great maps, if not oh well.

[R Pickard]

Sorry to hear you are discouraged.

Just FYI, you should be selecting the item based on, from what you can tell, which writer you think would be the better designer, not which item you would personally use in your campaign. (The vast majority of people vote the latter way, however.)

Seeing the same item over and over again is a bummer, and unfortunately the way the sorting rhythm works it happens a lot (there was one item last year I could not escape). But it also has to be a choice between two items for how it sorts the items. Someone better at math than I am can explain why (I have a graduate degree in English, the attainment of which requires the deadening of all math-based brain cells).

The lag is frustrating but on the other hand hopefully that means there are a lot of voters.

[Isaac Volynskiy]

Plus, a cull just occurred! You will probably see fewer of the items you disliked the first time around.

[Rabbitball]

R Pickard wrote:

Seeing the same item over and over again is a bummer, and unfortunately the way the sorting rhythm works it happens a lot (there was one item last year I could not escape). But it also has to be a choice between two items for how it sorts the items. Someone better at math than I am can explain why (I have a graduate degree in English, the attainment of which requires the deadening of all math-based brain cells).

The A vs. B voting, simply put, is faster than the alternatives. Anything else would require you to look at all 700 or so items, and if people are frustrated after 100 votes, imagine the frustration of seeing 7 times that number, rejecting 90% of them, and then being asked to rank the rest from 1 to 70. This is simpler, as you only have to compare one to the other, and you can join or leave as you see fit.

The basic math idea is that, over the long haul, the best items will get upvoted more than the bad ones. So an item with 60% upvotes is better than one with only 55%, but only if there are enough votes to make it "statistically significant". Three heads out of five coin flips isn't significant, but three million heads out of five million is. So the more you vote, the more significant each percentage point of difference is.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I really wanted to quote the post, but I can't for the life of me find it or recall who made it.

The gist: You shouldn't be voting if it feels like work. You shouldn't be motivated solely to get a title. The title is a bonus to recognize your efforts, but the real reward should be the chance to contribute (and to learn about magic item design and how to compare different items). If you don't enjoy it, you shouldn't feel compelled to do it.

[JPSTOD]

One of the reason I am not worried about Voting..First 3 Times were items I have seen before :( and was not impressed by..

Based on the items so Far...I would say No one has impressed me yet..
So Many could not follow the Posted Format...If they can't come up with an Item that I Would not be inspired to use..I am sure that they wouldn't come up with a Scenario I would want to use.

[Kobold Catgirl]

That's why it's a "versus" system. You aren't supposed to vote up the one you like, or vote down the one you hate. You're supposed to vote up the one you prefer and vote down the lesser of the two. This produces a much more tamper-proof, balanced vote.

[TimsterMon]

I've only seen one item that really WoW'd me, and I'm sure it is based a lot on personal taste. Even if I don't like a lot of stuff and see it often, overall I get to see hundreds of ideas. Some that may need some ironing, should not be there, really cool ones, and a lot of meh.

It's all butter in the sink, if you're not having fun.

8')

[RyanH]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

That's why it's a "versus" system. You aren't supposed to vote up the one you like, or vote down the one you hate. You're supposed to vote up the one you prefer and vote down the lesser of the two. This produces a much more tamper-proof, balanced vote.

Or, vote for the one that seems to have the best design skills ...

[Kobold Catgirl]

Ideally that would be the one you prefer.

[Einhänder]

I thought this was going to be about the lag time and loading. It's so much worse this year. It's proving very difficult to vote at all for more than ten items or so. Very time consuming and frustrating.

[pH unbalanced]

Einhänder wrote:

I thought this was going to be about the lag time and loading. It's so much worse this year. It's proving very difficult to vote at all for more than ten items or so. Very time consuming and frustrating.

I've had this same problem.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I haven't really had any problems past day one, for what it's worth. And my internet's not all that great.

[Kalindlara]

I mostly get to vote late at night, when there's less pressure on the system.

[Mike Franke]

Yes it is a bummer to see the same items over and over but i understand how the math works. I was hoping after the cull that some of my least favorites would be gone, and they are, but I still have many that are apparently in "my test group" that I have voted down many many many times but keep popping up. It is starting to feel like endless wack-a-mole.

[Mike Franke]

addendum ...I am now starting to have to choose between two that I had previously voted up more frequently than the one obviously solid and one obviously flawed scenario that has been common for the last few days.

[Ben Keysaer]

Wow...

[R Pickard]

Einhänder wrote:

I thought this was going to be about the lag time and loading. It's so much worse this year. It's proving very difficult to vote at all for more than ten items or so. Very time consuming and frustrating.

I haven't voted much because of it. But I don't want a voter tag because my tags are getting crowded (I actually wish I could get rid of the ones I have), so I'm kind of aiming for less than 100 votes anyway.

[Monica Marlowe]

I haven't been able to vote because the change in the timing of the contest coincides with me writing the winning adventure from the 2015 contest. I have not seen more than a handful of items and the ones I have seen have been well presented in comparison to years past. Maybe I got lucky.

Your choice to vote or not to vote is your own. Your choice to be dismissive and negative though hurts the over all process of the contest. Unlike in years past where they did have judges go through the best of the items and do exactly what you asked for, this year the contest will move forward with "THE" Top 32, regardless of their strengths and weaknesses, because that's what the other voters asked for. There is no "safety net" to help weed out designing flaws by professional developers and designers. This isn't about you getting a voting title, this is about how you choose to approach the contest. If you see it as a negative thing, then perhaps it's not the contest for you, and then you need to do what is right for you, but please don't take away what this contest means to other people on this forum.

[Monica Marlowe]

R Pickard wrote:

I haven't voted much because of it. But I don't want a voter tag because my tags are getting crowded (I actually wish I could get rid of the ones I have), so I'm kind of aiming for less than 100 votes anyway.

Well except for that ONE tag ;-) Hey DQ! :-)

[R Pickard]

Monica Marlowe wrote:

R Pickard wrote:

I haven't voted much because of it. But I don't want a voter tag because my tags are getting crowded (I actually wish I could get rid of the ones I have), so I'm kind of aiming for less than 100 votes anyway.

Well except for that ONE tag ;-) Hey DQ! :-)

No, not that one!!!!! Just my Star Voter tags!!!! :)

Good luck on the module writing!

[BJ Hensley]

I tried really hard to be helpful and do some voting. The appalling wait time was too much for my ADD. I did make the effort though. This counts yes? I'm even posting something for the third time ever!

[Donald Robinson]

Lady Kali wrote:

I tried really hard to be helpful and do some voting. The appalling wait time was too much for my ADD. I did make the effort though. This counts yes? I'm even posting something for the third time ever!

I like to look through the forums or thinking about a map for round 2 (despite my pessimism telling me not to bother). When both fail, I look at MTG drafts (and work on work reports as needed) even though I don't play MTG anymore.

[BJ Hensley]

Good ideas! Good luck with your item! Anything is possible right?

[Donald Robinson]

Right!

[Kobold Catgirl]

Tabbing over to the Snark thread, or contributing to the List, also helps.

[BJ Hensley]

I'd likely feel bad for snarking. I could probably work in between loads providing there isn't a time constraint on voting. Does it time out if I forget about it for half hour?

[Donald Robinson]

As long as the page is still open, no. But if it does close, you get the same two items last on your screen, but with a short timer.

[BJ Hensley]

I will keep that in mind. :)

[Kobold Catgirl]

Well, you could frequent the Praise thread. I guess.

[Papasteve08]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Tabbing over to the Snark thread, or contributing to the List, also helps.

Contribue to the list: +1 for that. Be bold and click the chat tab, there have been some pretty cool people in there.

The snark thread just brings me down. I can't handle it.

Though its a little bit like a train wreck, sometimes I can't look away...

[frank gori]

Papasteve08 wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Tabbing over to the Snark thread, or contributing to the List, also helps.

Contribue to the list: +1 for that. Be bold and click the chat tab, there have been some pretty cool people in there.

The snark thread just brings me down. I can't handle it.

Though its a little bit like a train wreck, sometimes I can't look away...

The snark thread is a lesson for writers... once you release your writing into the wild it is not yours anymore. People will feel free to misinterpret and misrepresent your intentions, love or hate your ideas, and twist the game mechanics in ways you didn't anticipate.

True story, one of my 3PP's books of archetypes has a review where the purchaser expresses dissatisfaction with the fact that we wrote a bunch of crunch rather than a class guide. Mind you we did not advertise ourselves as a class guide.

[Le Petite Mort]

Here's my idea for the counter:

Giving us 30 seconds per item to read makes sense. That amount for items we've already read is dumb.

If I've already seen an item, knock 20 seconds off the counter. If I've seen both, knock of 40. It doesn't take long to remember how I felt about an item, what it does, etc.

[JJ Jordan]

Le Petite Mort wrote:

Here's my idea for the counter:

Giving us 30 seconds per item to read makes sense. That amount for items we've already read is dumb.

If I've already seen an item, knock 20 seconds off the counter. If I've seen both, knock of 40. It doesn't take long to remember how I felt about an item, what it does, etc.

I think the length of voting time is also to prevent someone from writing a script that votes constantly just to upvote their own item.

[Eric Morton]

Le Petite Mort wrote:

Here's my idea for the counter:

Giving us 30 seconds per item to read makes sense. That amount for items we've already read is dumb.

If I've already seen an item, knock 20 seconds off the counter. If I've seen both, knock of 40. It doesn't take long to remember how I felt about an item, what it does, etc.

Unfortunately, if you add fields to contest database tracking which items have been viewed by which voter, and if you check those fields every time a pair of items is assigned to a voter, you've just doubled or tripled the amount of lag everyone will experience.

[Le Petite Mort]

Eric Morton wrote:

Le Petite Mort wrote:

Here's my idea for the counter:

Giving us 30 seconds per item to read makes sense. That amount for items we've already read is dumb.

If I've already seen an item, knock 20 seconds off the counter. If I've seen both, knock of 40. It doesn't take long to remember how I felt about an item, what it does, etc.

Unfortunately, if you add fields to contest database tracking which items have been viewed by which voter, and if you check those fields every time a pair of items is assigned to a voter, you've just doubled or tripled the amount of lag everyone will experience.

Rather than tracking everyone's 'seen list' in a centralized database, you assign to every account a list variable. Every item you see is added to this list. Whenever the page is bringing up the next set of items, it quickly iterates through your own personal list to check if the items present have been seen by you before or not. With 800 entries, iterating through the list twice even without any intelligent/efficient searching algorithms and assuming you had already seen 99% of them, would take < 1 second.

[Monica Marlowe]

Lady Kali wrote:

I tried really hard to be helpful and do some voting. The appalling wait time was too much for my ADD. I did make the effort though. This counts yes? I'm even posting something for the third time ever!

Being positive and active in the forums is what I did for the first 7 seasons of RPG Superstar. I only ever entered one time, last year. I did vote a lot, but that was mostly because I had many friends who asked me to read their items, so I then wanted to see what their competition looked like. Supporting game designers totally counts.

[Vic Wertz]

Le Petite Mort wrote:

Rather than tracking everyone's 'seen list' in a centralized database, you assign to every account a list variable. Every item you see is added to this list. Whenever the page is bringing up the next set of items, it quickly iterates through your own personal list to check if the items present have been seen by you before or not. With 800 entries, iterating through the list twice even without any intelligent/efficient searching algorithms and assuming you had already seen 99% of them, would take < 1 second.

Thing is, if you've already seen A and told us you like it more than B, you haven't necessarily told us you like it more than C, and that's a pretty valuable comparison to be had. Now, we *could* do what you say to make sure that we don't show you A vs B when you've already seen A vs B... but that's a lot of crunching for something that doesn't come up that often... and there's also a chance that you will actually give us a different answer, which is statistically useful as well.

[Le Petite Mort]

I wouldn't recommend reducing the reading time to less than 20 seconds total, even if you've seen both items. I'm saying that items you are familiar with just take less time to look over again, especially before a few culls.

The repeat A vs. B thing isn't worth the processing power to resolve, but seeing the same item repeatedly happens a lot, and tracking it seems trivial.

[Curaigh]

I like being able to reread them while waiting for the counter. I OFTEN find something I misinterpreted the first time. More often I discover what the author's intent might have been, which is way more helpful in picking the best designer. 'Tis not the item I'm voting on, otherwise weapons & armor would almost never win my vote. I try and see behind the lines with that extra time.

[Pizza Lord]

I kind of hope that with the cull the time limit will be reduced. I understand the 60 seconds at first, when there's definitely going to be items that haven't been seen, but when the list is narrowed I think it can be reduced.

There may be newcomers showing up late, but they can obviously take as much time as needed to read, it isn't like there's a deadline per vote.

[Robert Thomson]

I know I "discovered" new things about items (especially some of the really wordy complicated ones) during the first few readings. After a dozen or more times on some items, I have them memorized now though.

[BJ Hensley]

Monica Marlowe wrote:

Lady Kali wrote:

I tried really hard to be helpful and do some voting. The appalling wait time was too much for my ADD. I did make the effort though. This counts yes? I'm even posting something for the third time ever!

Being positive and active in the forums is what I did for the first 7 seasons of RPG Superstar. I only ever entered one time, last year. I did vote a lot, but that was mostly because I had many friends who asked me to read their items, so I then wanted to see what their competition looked like. Supporting game designers totally counts.

Monica, you're always so sweet. I do a great deal of both game designing and supporting game designers. ;) I just have a limited amount of time. I really do try to find time for the forums, I just get distracted very easily by my workload. Like you, I found time to enter once, with a great deal of friendly harassment. We shall see where that goes. I'm told my item is still floating around. I think it's great that there's such a supportive and helpful community here for budding designers! I love seeing creativity supported!!

[Clay Clouser]

Papasteve08 wrote:

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Tabbing over to the Snark thread, or contributing to the List, also helps.

Contribue to the list: +1 for that. Be bold and click the chat tab, there have been some pretty cool people in there.

The snark thread just brings me down. I can't handle it.

Though its a little bit like a train wreck, sometimes I can't look away...

How does one find this chat...

[Thomas LeBlanc]

go to the list on the top right you see "Comments" with a dialog button to the left. Click it for chat.

[Clay Clouser]

The "items I've seen" list?

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Clay Clouser wrote:

The "items I've seen" list?

THE LIST!!!

[Loradin]

It is another thread on the RPG Superstar Forum. The very first post has a link to an excel spreadsheet. It is constantly being updated with stats about items seen.

The upper right has a chat button you can click on.

[Vic Wertz]

Pizza Lord wrote:

I kind of hope that with the cull the time limit will be reduced. I understand the 60 seconds at first, when there's definitely going to be items that haven't been seen, but when the list is narrowed I think it can be reduced.

There may be newcomers showing up late, but they can obviously take as much time as needed to read, it isn't like there's a deadline per vote.

The delay isn't about making you take the time to read it—it's about mitigating voting fraud. We don't want people clicking as fast as possible through all the entries until they spot their own (or their friend's, or just their favorite) and voting it up, then repeating. (Or doing the same to repeatedly downvote an entry they dislike, or just to introduce chaos to the voting by randomly voting on as many pages as possible.) Assuming a number of entires in the high hundreds or low thousands, seeing two entries per minute means you have to vote for hours (on average) between seeing the same item twice (of course, random is random, so it's *possible* to see repeats much sooner, but over time, you'll drift to the average).

Since culls result in fewer entries to go through before you're likely to see your target again, the delay actually becomes *more* important to the process as we cull.

[Wren Brown]

thanks for the explanation, Vic.