Catching on fire when exposed to burning oil

[mjmeans]

There is some disagreement on this in my local group.... Is there anything wrong with the below interpretation?

From the CR and PRD under the heading "Heat Dangers" and subheading "Catching on Fire":

Catching on Fire
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out — that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.

And from the general rules of lamp oil:

Oil: A pint of oil burns for 6 hours in a lantern or lamp. You can also use a flask of oil as a splash weapon. Use the rules for alchemist’s fire (see Special Substances and Items on Table 6–9), except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is a 50% chance of the flask igniting successfully. You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area.

A strict reading of the rules says that the flask of oil needs a fuse. Period. It doesn't matter if the oil is being thrown at something which is already on fire. There is no rule that "enables" the flask to catch fire in any other ways than by a "fuse" or when it is being burned in an actual lamp. You could pour it into a volcano and it wouldn't burn. That's just ridiculous and doesn't pass the sniff test.

So assuming that the oil is similar to kerosene, the oil should light if it is exposed to a flame when it is placed on any wicking material, such as hair or clothing, or if it is "splashed" across a surface. That seems to be totally consistent to the rule above.

Now here's the problem. GM's disagree on whether this is actually how these two rules interact:

Round 1 - PC: Alchemists fire thrown on round 1 hits a creature. The target will take 1d6 for two rounds because it is on fire, though nothing on it will catch fire, because alchemist's fire can't do that.

Round 1 - NPC: Nothing special here for the NPC. The alchemist's fire is still burning, but the damage is applied on the PC's turn. The NPC might have some option to quench the alchemist's fire, but chooses not to do that.

Round 2 - PC: The Alchemist's fire is still burning. A flask of oil is thrown and hits the same target. There is already a fire source so the oil will catch fire if the flask actually breaks, no fuse is necessary since the alchemist's fire is the "fuse" or source of flame to light it. So if it hits AND BREAKS (roll save for the flask breaking since it was not prepared with a fuse and an oil flask is not designed to break), then the NPC takes damage on round 2 from the alchemist's fire (1d6) plus the burning oil (1d6). The rule for oil damage of 1d3 for splash only applies if used to cover the ground, so that doesn't apply.

Round 2 - NPC: The NPC has been exposed to burning oil, the rule for "catching on fire" applies and the NPC must roll a DC 15 Reflex save if they have exposed hair or clothing (or other flammable equipment) to avoid themselves catching fire and taking an additional 1d6 from them self "being on fire". And if they fail that save, they will also have to roll DC 15 saves for that equipment, or the equipment also take damage. If he makes this saving through, it means that "he is not on fire", but it doesn't mean that the burning oil on him has gone out. That will still happen on round 3 unless the NPC takes some action to put out the oil, like jumping into a pool of water, etc. The NPC chooses to do something else and ignores the fact that there is burning oil on him.

Round 3 - PC: The alchemists fire no longer applies. The oil however is still burning (its second round) just like Alchemist's fire burned for its two rounds. So the NPC takes 1d6 damage from burning oil. This is the final round of burning oil.

Round 3 - NPC: The NPC has had another round of being exposed to burning oil, so if they still have exposed hair, clothing
or flammable equipment, another DC 15 save to avoid themselves catching on fire and its consequences (additional 1d6 damage and saves to avoid damage to equipment) just like round 2. If the PC failed the save he can also try to take some action to put himself out to avoid potential damage on following rounds.

One thing that could save the NPC from "being on fire" damage on this round is if their hair and clothing or other exposed flammable equipment failed on round 2 and has already burned off (destroyed by the fire). In that case, even though they were exposed to burning oil, they will no longer be capable of being on fire and no longer need to roll saves.

Round 4 and later - NPC: As long as the NPC is still on fire and still has exposed hair, clothing or flammable equipment, they will continue to make saves each round to avoid additional fire damage and if failed saves for their equipment as well.

And of course, if the PC never had any exposed hair or clothing or flammable equipment, they will never catch on fire. So good news for a fighter wearing full plate mail, a full face helmet (or is bald), and not wearing any cloth sashes, cloaks, or other flammable equipment. They could never "catch on fire".

[mjmeans]

(Crickets) No comments at all?

[DM_Blake]

You're misreading a few points.

1. It takes a full round to prepare an oil flask with a fuse. But this does not mean that you MUST do so - it only means that if you WANT a fuse, you need to use a full round to prepare the fuse. You could throw your oil flask at an enemy and cover them with non-burning oil if you want; that certainly would not require a fuse. And, since oil is flammable you could use any flame to light that oil on fire later (the part of the text that says "if lit" refers to lighting non-burning oil on fire and while this refers to oil on the ground, it doesn't LIMIT it to being on the ground, so it supports lighting oil on fire).

2. When using an oil flask as a weapon you use the rules for Alchemist's Fire. Period. Except for the one rule specifically mentioned, preparing a fuse (if needed). So you use ALL the rest of the rules for Alchemist's Fire: duration, damage, and catching on fire. Which means that a simple oil flask is not going to make an enemy catch on fire. Ever. This is fairly important because you can buy 200 flasks of ordinary lamp oil for the price of 1 flask of Alchemist's Fire, but don't want 1sp of oil to be MORE destructive than 20gp of Alchemist's Fire.

3. While you're not misreading the text that says people catch on fire when exposed to oil, if you read that bit in context with my above 2 points, it only makes sense if you are considering it to mean a whole lot more oil than a small flask used as a splash weapon. Say, if someone is attacking a castle and they pour a huge cauldron of burning oil on him, or something else that is considerably more significant than just a small flask.

If you take all 3 of these points together, you won't have to worry about a little 1sp oil flask destroying several magic items a PC is carrying along with possibly killing him in the process.

[SlimGauge]

Use the search feature to find all the other threads where this is discussed to death.

Like this one.

or any of the 13,730 items for: catching on fire in messageboards

[mjmeans]

A quick Google search reveals that kerosene lamp oil burns at a rate 36 hours per pint in a typical table lamp. In Pathfinder, a one pint flash of oil burns in a lamp for only 6 hours. So Pathfinder oil must be more volatile.

The burning time for a Pathfinder pint of lamp oil splashed on the floor is 2 rounds. Kerosene would burn much longer than that if a pint were splashed (Molotov style) in a 5x5 area especially if on a porous natural wood floor. So again Pathfinder lamp oil must be much more volatile and flammable than kerosene. Possibly some kind of alcohol.

The fact that if a pint of burning kerosene or alcohol were thrown on a real person it would absolutely and almost always catch their clothes and hair on fire appears to not be relevant to the two replies thus far.

But the consensus apparently is that people can't catch fire from being directly exposed to a pint flask of burning lamp oil. Pathfinder lamp oil is some weird kind of fantasy fuel that, for whatever reason, burns far too quickly and doesn't catch people on fire the way real lamp oil would.

Concerning the reply for dumping burning oil from a wall, the DC to avoid catching fire in that case should be 50 or higher. It should be nearly impossible to not catch on fire when 20 gallons of burning oil fall on you. You would be completely covered with the stuff.

[DM_Blake]

mjmeans wrote:

Concerning the reply for dumping burning oil from a wall, the DC to avoid catching fire in that case should be 50 or higher. It should be nearly impossible to not catch on fire when 20 gallons of burning oil fall on you. You would be completely covered with the stuff.

Not necessarily.

It could (but probably shouldn't) go like this:
GM: The defenders on the wall pour 20 gallons of flaming oil on you. You are covered with every drop of the flaming oil, it soaks into your clothes, hair, skin, and everything else. Roll a REF save, DC 15. Oh, you made it? You don't catch on fire; I guess your clothes, hair, skin, and everything else are all made of asbestos today...

Or it could go like this:
GM: The defenders on the wall pour 20 gallons of flaming oil on you. Make a REF save, DC 15. You made it? Lucky you, most of the oil missed you, though some still splashes and burns you. Good thing you got out of the way of the worst of it so you don't catch on fire.

[DM_Blake]

mjmeans wrote:

The fact that if a pint of burning kerosene or alcohol were thrown on a real person it would absolutely and almost always catch their clothes and hair on fire appears to not be relevant to the two replies thus far.

It's not "lost on me". Just like the fact that a typical shield is usually destroyed beyond reasonable repair after just a handful of good blows from a trained and capable enemy (let alone a giant or a dragon). Armor fares little better. So why don't we have our fighters and paladins and such lug around a cart-load of shields and an portable forge to repair their armor between fights?

Some game concepts are just simplified, even in unrealistic ways, to make this a game rather than a bookkeeping test of endurance.

mjmeans wrote:

But the consensus apparently is that people can't catch fire from being directly exposed to a pint flask of burning lamp oil.

Like the indestructible armor and shields I just mentioned, the rest of our gear is also supposed to be somewhat indestructible. Nobody wants to have to go back to town after every couple fights to replace supplies that were destroyed in those fights. That would make for a boring game.

And if we rule that lamp oil and Alchemist's Fire can set people but not equipment on fire, then suddenly these weapons become overpowered and every adventurer, town guard, farmer, orc, goblin, and demon running around Golarion is armed with oil flasks instead of swords and other real weapons. They're cheap (only twice the price of an arrow and only 1/20th the price of a dagger) and they have a very good chance of killing enemies and/or denying their actions with just a single hit.

As is, the rules don't represent reality, but they do somewhat allow for game balance and also for not destroying the players' fun along with destroying their PCs' gear.

[mjmeans]

Agreed.