| Michael Grate |
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1. If my mount moves through a threatened square while I'm riding it, do I provoke as well. As simple as this question sounds it's important, especially in the case of Overrun where my mount has improved overrun (doesn't provoke) but I don't.
2. I have my own action pool I can use along with my mount having a (mostly) separate action pool to utilize, so:
A) Can I attack while my mount is moving? Or more specifically, can my mount use it's double move action while I utilize a standard action (attack) somewhere in the middle (for the sake of simplicity we can assume it's at the end of my mount's first move action before beginning the second).
B) Does drawing a weapon count as a move action (because I'm not moving) or free action as part of a move (because my mount is).
C) Mounted Charging and charging while mounted are considered the same thing but are me and the mount making two different charges at the same time essentially?
3. What takes place during a flying overrun? More specifically what happens if I beat someone by 5 or more. Failure and success by 4 or less seem straight forward but success by 5 or more results in the opponent being knocked prone. Is this a trip situation where a flying opponent can't be knocked prone (like they can't be tripped) so this is ignored or is there something special that happens in this case?
4. A) How does an overrun work? I have two different sites saying two different things:
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Overrun)
This site lists it as a standard Combat Maneuver against the opponents CMD. It also says that is can be part of a charge and that to knock someone prone, you have to beat their CMD by 5 or more.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun)
This site says that an overrun is done using ones strength (with bonus/penalty for size difference) against an opponents Strength or Dexterity, never mentions a charge and seems to indicate that an overrun automatically knocks an opponent prone.
(This site might be outdated but I'd like to make sure)
B) Going back to my first question, if my mount is doing the overrun, who provokes?
C)If I make a mounted charge against an opponent but between us is another opponent, can my mount use its charge action to overrun (thus not getting an attack on the farther opponent) and I continue to make the charge attack against the farther opponent (assuming success)? This sounds like Charge Through but from my reading the purpose of that is to allow my mount to be able to make an attack against the farther opponent along with the Overrun (or myself if I were doing the maneuver instead).
D) If my mount has Greater Overrun and is able to knock an opponent prone during a charge, can I make an attack of opportunity despite being in the middle of my charge or does this count as the attack I would make normally at the end of my charge? If I can make a normal AOO, does the attack still get the standard charging benefits (Lance, Spirited Charge, Cavalier's Charge etc.) or would is be a regular attack?
Æthernaut
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I'd like to address 3 since I have a character who might one day fly and already has overrun. On a search through all of the Bestiaries, I found only a handful of of creatures that had both. But what I also noted is that they always also had ways to ground or grab flyers. It seams to me that they have to ground the flyer even though they can fly. and overrun.
I then concluded that in order to trample something, you have to pass through its square (not above it) AND that you have to have something to trample against (so you can't trample something in mid-air or floating beneath the water's surface for those would just be slam attacks). If you fly up to something to trample it, you must touch ground at least in the opponent's square.
I didn't manage to find this written anywhere, but this is the same restriction I'll be imposing upon my characters and any characters I GM for.
Short answer – expect table variation.
Also, Greater Trip and Greater Overrun are from two distinct feat trees. Although the opponent might end up prone in both cases, both the attacker's CMB and the defender's CMD may gain/suffer mods related to one maneuver that don't impact the other. One doesn't trigger the other.
The best way to knock something out of the sky is still to just knock it out, then let it fall out of the sky.
Æthernaut
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AND that you have to have something to trample against (so you can't trample something in mid-air or floating beneath the water's surface for those would just be slam attacks).
Apparently there are monsters that act like speed boats and submarines. They have a swim speed and improved overrun to do so). As a GM, I'd still require a surface for the flyer to squish the target against while in the air.
Since overrun doesn't work against aerial creatures, see the thread on forcing down flyers for solutions.
Æthernaut
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4D) If my mount has Greater Overrun and is able to knock an opponent prone during a charge, can I make an attack of opportunity despite being in the middle of my charge or does this count as the attack I would make normally at the end of my charge? If I can make a normal AOO, does the attack still get the standard charging benefits (Lance, Spirited Charge, Cavalier's Charge etc.) or would is be a regular attack?
Yes, you can take the AoO, provided you have a spare AoO left, and still take the intended attack on the final target. Be sure to verbalize your intent so that the GM correctly understands how you performed your action economy before you start rolling dice. For example:
If my horse successfully overruns the front-liner, then I'll take an attack of opportunity on it, too, from my horses greater overrun.
And unless you have Combat reflexes, there will be no more AoO taken by you until your next turn.
Æthernaut
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4C) If I make a mounted charge against an opponent but between us is another opponent, can my mount use its charge action to overrun (thus not getting an attack on the farther opponent) and I continue to make the charge attack against the farther opponent (assuming success)? This sounds like Charge Through but from my reading the purpose of that is to allow my mount to be able to make an attack against the farther opponent along with the Overrun.
The horse can overrun the closer target and you get a single attack the farther target. If the horse had a successful charge through, then it gets one attack on the near and the far targets each while you get to make a single attack on the second target, but not both. Ride-by attack. let's you move, attack, then move again, without either you or your horse provoking. Unfortunately, it will let you attack the near, but not the far enemy.
To get an attack on both enemies, combine the answers from this question with the one from 4D).
Æthernaut
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4A) How does an overrun work? I have two different sites saying two different things:
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Overrun)
or
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun)4B) Going back to my first question, if my mount is doing the overrun, who provokes?
Instead of referencing external sources which could have errors beyond our control lets just reference the PRD on mounted combat. I see no reference to a 5 or more needed to prone the target.
Mounted combat makes your mounts initiative be your initiative. Now you can ride around on its single or double move, treating it as your move action and still make a single attack. Since a horse takes up four squares, its good to represent your miniatures like so:
_RRR_
RHHAR
RHOAR
RAAAR
_RRR_
where 'O' is the rider sitting on top of a horse (or any large mount) which is represented by an 'H'. The rider's attacks can reach any space marked with 'A', while the 'R' is where you can attack with a reach weapon, like a lance. If the horses movement provokes, then yours might also. Note that, not in all cases, can the opponent take an attack of opportunity on you, nor will you have reach to attack all targets. I suggest you have a miniature of your mount on a 2"x2" square base that will also fit a space for the PC miniature, to help deter confusion in this manner. (Note: mounts don't have facing like vehicle, but it still helps clarify ambiguities regarding positioning and reach, of which I have observed several at the gaming tables.)
| Michael Grate |
Instead of referencing external sources which could have errors beyond our control lets just reference the PRD on mounted combat. I see no reference to a 5 or more needed to prone the target.
If your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD by 5 or more, you move through the target's space and the target is knocked prone.
Æthernaut
|
Since a horse takes up four squares, its good to represent your miniatures like so:
_RRR_
RHHAR
RHOAR
RAAAR
_RRR_
It looks like I didn't make myself too clear on this point, so let me add to this comment. The advice I gave was really best for home games. If you're playing PFS, then the RAW PRD says A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
That makes the zone look more like the following:
_RRRR_
RAAAAR
RASSAR
RASSAR
RAAAAR
_RRRR_
where everything else is the same, and S is the area shared by both the rider and the mount.
| Michael Grate |
Æthernaut wrote:Since a horse takes up four squares, its good to represent your miniatures like so:
_RRR_
RHHAR
RHOAR
RAAAR
_RRR_
It looks like I didn't make myself too clear on this point, so let me add to this comment. The advice I gave was really best for home games. If you're playing PFS, then the RAW PRD says A horse (not a pony) is a Large creature and thus takes up a space 10 feet (2 squares) across. For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat.
That makes the zone look more like the following:
_RRRR_
RAAAAR
RASSAR
RASSAR
RAAAAR
_RRRR_
where everything else is the same, and S is the area shared by both the rider and the mount.
Ok, so I'm guessing this means we do both provoke then?
Æthernaut
|
4B) Going back to my first question, if my mount is doing the overrun, who provokes?
The mount was the one who provoked by overrunning, not the rider.; you were just along for the ride.
But does a rider provoke for having moved through a threatened square?
If this is the case, then I have witnessed several games where an opponent could have taken a free swipe at the rider after sidestepping the overrun. Heck, she could have even attacked the rider regardless of the overrun's results.
And you know, I also don't see anywhere in the PRD where it says that, if the rider has improved or greater overrun, then the mount gains the benefits of the feat(s) for free. (not that its relevant to your example, just saying...)
I'd definitely like to hear someone else chime in.
| Michael Grate |
And you know, I also don't see anywhere in the PRD where it says that, if the rider has improved or greater overrun, then the mount gains the benefits of the feat(s) for free. (not that its relevant to your example, just saying...)
It would be my mount taking the feats anyway (I archetyped her as a Charger so Greater Overrun is available, plus she's a Pegasus so she could take it anyway). But that's where my concern comes in. My mount won't provoke by having Improved Overrun, but would I have to dip into my feat pool to avoid it as well?
I guess the question here becomes if its the actual overrun attempt that provokes or if it's the movement that is done (similar to a charge) which is where the first question comes in.
Æthernaut
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Æthernaut wrote:And you know, I also don't see anywhere in the PRD where it says that, if the rider has improved or greater overrun, then the mount gains the benefits of the feat(s) for free. (not that its relevant to your example, just saying...)It would be my mount taking the feats anyway (I archetyped her as a Charger so Greater Overrun is available, plus she's a Pegasus so she could take it anyway). But that's where my concern comes in. My mount won't provoke by having Improved Overrun, but would I have to dip into my feat pool to avoid it as well?
I guess the question here becomes if its the actual overrun attempt that provokes or if it's the movement that is done (similar to a charge) which is where the first question comes in.
Because Improved Overrun says "If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of his maneuver", simply because you as a rider would "initiate" the overrun by commanding his mount. Another solution would be the Escape Route teamwork feat, but it likely messes with your desired list(s) of feats as well. You could be invisible or armored to the teeth. There may be other solutions out there. Check here for sources.
Æthernaut
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2B) Does drawing a weapon count as a move action (because I'm not moving) or free action as part of a move (because my mount is).
To Draw or Sheathe a Weapon requires a move action, but if your BAB is greater than +0, then you can draw it as part of a regular move action as a free action.
And a 'regular move' requires the character to be actually moving, as in you have a move speed. And the move has to be more than a 5-foot step.
Looking back at Mounted Combat, it says "You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move."
So you move to your horse, and quick mount it for free (provided you made the Ride check), leaving you one more move action to draw your weapon. And since your mount is combat trained, you won't need to roll to control the mount.