You have to enforce 20 pt. buy and adjust things up if there party has more than 4 minis on the map. Why? pets, cohorts, summons, etc. will tilt the action economy so bad in their favor that all threats they face will be eliminated in a round or two.
If my PCs have anything on the map that pushes the count of friendlies past 4 I do this:
-all monsters gain the advanced template (+4 to AC and +2 to all rolls incl. dmg)
If there are more than 4 actual PCs (tables of 5 or 6 with or without pets) I do this:
-double the monsters on the map
Reason: Hell's Rebels is particularly easy and a cakewalk if the players bring things like arcanists, occultists, and other highly mutable classes that can be hyper focused against devils, undead, etc. The whole AP was developed for 4 players and 20 pt. buy, and it's not a particulary 'hard' AP in the first place because 'Vive La Rebellion!' type campaign assumes light armored rogue types and priests of Milani, bards, and other Perrier CG types etc. When you bring on the Red Bull spiked with Jägermeister heavy hitting paladins, arcanists, occultists specialized in defeating Hell minions, etc. into the mix the enemies stand no chance.
So to clarify - would those divination spells reveal the trap? I have never really got to the levels where those spells get common use (and I can't imagine my players will come up with them either - but just in case)
If they beat the Perception check AND tell you they are looking for traps. That'd be my ruling absent other information. Then the rogue would have to beat their +20 Perception to get in position to disable device.
One of the Death attacks would be True Death and potentially turn them into dust though...
But it can be beaten by True Resurrection. Could be a great side quest to find a cleric that level.
In any case, it's a great moment at a high level table. They'll start working on counter-measures after that.
One of the Death attacks would be True Death and potentially turn them into dust though...
But it can be beaten by True Resurrection. Could be a great side quest to find a cleric that level.
In any case, it's a great moment at a high level table. They'll start working on counter-measures after that.
Wow I envy your players then. For your “great moment” I envisage tantrums and near tears from 30+ year old men losing a character they have played since level 1. An potentially walking out of the game
Which is why I asked if anyone had done it.
But perhaps the response here is to just not do it. But in doing so I remove the most powerful ability from one of the enemies. And there already happens a lot already - liberation domain cleric gets an aura that utterly negates almost every condition enemies can throw out - no fear , grapple , paralysis. And for some monsters it makes them functionally useless (handmaiden devil is one example)
You have to enforce 20 pt. buy and adjust things up if there party has more than 4 minis on the map. Why? pets, cohorts, summons, etc. will tilt the action economy so bad in their favor that all threats they face will be eliminated in a round or two.
If my PCs have anything on the map that pushes the count of friendlies past 4 I do this:
-all monsters gain the advanced template (+4 to AC and +2 to all rolls incl. dmg)
If there are more than 4 actual PCs (tables of 5 or 6 with or without pets) I do this:
-double the monsters on the map
Reason: Hell's Rebels is particularly easy and a cakewalk if the players bring things like arcanists, occultists, and other highly mutable classes that can be hyper focused against devils, undead, etc. The whole AP was developed for 4 players and 20 pt. buy, and it's not a particulary 'hard' AP in the first place because 'Vive La Rebellion!' type campaign assumes light armored rogue types and priests of Milani, bards, and other Perrier CG types etc. When you bring on the Red Bull spiked with Jägermeister heavy hitting paladins, arcanists, occultists specialized in defeating Hell minions, etc. into the mix the enemies stand no chance.
Advanced template doesn’t cut it. It is almost the bare minimum
The issue isn’t really the extra minis it is all the other stuff.
Extra Hells Rebels feats have helped top up everyone’s weak saves along with ABP which, like seemingly everything in 1E, utterly breaks at high levels when the wealth has extrapolated and the free up slots can be used for far more useful items that would normally be a real difficult decision
It is that the monsters can’t hit very well pre buffs and then even less after buffs. And then the witch throws up twin hex protective luck which effectively negates critical and most hits as well
He has also found a rules loophole with rime spell which means it entangles with no save. So anything that can’t fly suddenly has crippled movement
Evil eye now gives -4 (no save for at least one round remember). Tailored as required :
- enemy actually hitting for a change : hex attack
- need to guarantee a massive Kineticist blast : hex AC (plus fortune sometimes)
- target with spells or effects : hex saves
The witch also has a monk level and can now afford the slots to but loads of buffs like iron skin, mage armour etc . So has joint highest AC
The cleric has a Milani feat that grants temporary heroism (but still the whole combat usually) with every channel and a domain power that allows re rolls against failed effects .
And then an aura that negates things like grapple, fear, confusion, paralysis - read : almost every effect that an enemy that isn’t all about full melee attacks can do
And those are the two support characters. The others are highly damaging melees. A Kineticist with crazy AC, HP, miss chance, wand of mirror image and absolutely hideous damage output (almost one rounded the fiendish Charybdis)
And a swashbuckling cavalier devoted muse with a reach weapon and the ability to dodging panache to largely negate hits as it grants charisma to AC when he does that
As noted the AP is on the easier end and utterly unequipped to cope with this level of well built character. Some of the enemies are utterly awful when faced with this and the trap and spell DCs are pathetic when my party seems to have a “low” save of about 17 amongst them (it might be 15 but they nearly always have either a lucky clover or heroism from channel up when needed)
Learning monster abilities that will pretty much never work and understanding stat blocks for things that will not even hit is draining.
Even with hero lab adjusting them is tough because it is easy to go too far the other way. I made the book 4 temple an absolute meat grinder. Almost every fight was hard and I took the gloves off because death wasn’t permanent due to song of silver and it was a bloodbath. But that required a lot of work and worked counter intuitively as my players now think every fight is going to be terrifying and have carried on hyper focusing their characters for power
(This also resulted in them getting super paranoid and upon locating the hidden noble who faked his death in book 5 they kicked open the door and blasted him into pieces without asking any questions)
It is tough because I have toyed with just going back to how it is written and letting them steamroller everything , never failing a save except on a 1 etc. But two of the four players would absolutely hate that. The other 2 are more likely to be annoyed that I am not already playing everything by the book.
Anyway sorry for the vent. And I am sure I have had this same vent before (maybe even more than once) in another book forum
I just felt really glum after the Urchin’s Maw first half. And the second half doesn’t seem much harder as the drowning devil sorcerer has one spell that might do anything at all (Feeblemind). And the cleric (unless blocked) can remove that with heal in one round (and cast swift action Grace to avoid AOO so blocking doesn’t make a difference)!
This sounds like a job for Mythic Monsters!
Mythic is an excellent way to help restore the power balance between the monsters and uber players. And you do NOT need to give the players Mythic abilities. These monsters are empowered by Hell and Barzillai's efforts to become a Genius Loci.
There are even Mythic templates that can help. Are the players going before your monsters and they don't get a chance to react? Or action economy allows the players to overwhelm the monster? Then take the Mythic Agile template so the monster gets +20 to initiative for its FIRST series of actions and then acts on initiative a second time in the round! Or the monster dies too quickly? Use the Mythic Invincible template so it has increased damage reduction and a higher armor class!
Given that Barzillai-in-Hell is built with two Mythic Tiers, the players can't even claim that Mythic isn't a part of the game.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/mythic/mythic-monsters/my thic-simple-templates/
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You have to enforce 20 pt. buy
PF1 APs assumed a 15-point buy, actually. The idea was for a rough parity in chassis with the humanoid NPCs with PC class levels who are built on the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which is in turn a 15-point by stat array. There's a bit of dicta somewhere that PC class levels are restricted to characters with the elite array or better, while characters with the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) are restricted to NPC classes and monsters are built on the average array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). This is why monsters who gain class levels get adjustments of +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and -2 to their stats; it's supposed to basically reproduce the elite array (11+4=15, 10+4=14, 11+2=13, 10+2=12, 11+0=11, 10-2=8).
Keeping the PCs' base stats low is important because Lanathar is right: APs give them so many tools to break this parity. PCs get traits and disproportionate wealth, PCs are built with loving care by players as opposed to harried designers and GMs, PCs in Hell's Rebels particularly (and also in Ironfang Invasion) get bonus feats and other special boons. I kind of hate the "PCs are special" mechanics on principle regardless of mechanical effect and so strip out things like traits and minigame bonus feats, but even disproportionate treasure and careful build-tailoring (or just picking powerful classes) are unbalancing.
Just as a heads up, a 25-point build is the equivalence to giving every single monster/antagonist/npc +1 to all of their stats. So if you gave your PCs a 20 point build and are having too easy a time? Give all the monsters/antagonists a +1 to all stats and it'll compensate both for the higher stats and a little toward the extra Feats and the like.
You have to enforce 20 pt. buyPF1 APs assumed a 15-point buy, actually. The idea was for a rough parity in chassis with the humanoid NPCs with PC class levels who are built on the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), which is in turn a 15-point by stat array. There's a bit of dicta somewhere that PC class levels are restricted to characters with the elite array or better, while characters with the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) are restricted to NPC classes and monsters are built on the average array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). This is why monsters who gain class levels get adjustments of +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and -2 to their stats; it's supposed to basically reproduce the elite array (11+4=15, 10+4=14, 11+2=13, 10+2=12, 11+0=11, 10-2=8).
Keeping the PCs' base stats low is important because Lanathar is right: APs give them so many tools to break this parity. PCs get traits and disproportionate wealth, PCs are built with loving care by players as opposed to harried designers and GMs, PCs in Hell's Rebels particularly (and also in Ironfang Invasion) get bonus feats and other special boons. I kind of hate the "PCs are special" mechanics on principle regardless of mechanical effect and so strip out things like traits and minigame bonus feats, but even disproportionate treasure and careful build-tailoring (or just picking powerful classes) are unbalancing.
Yes the mini game feats definitely appear to be a mistake as does ABP and unrestricted book content. I think I even gave them the campaign trait choice as a bonus so they have 3.
Mini game saving throw feat largely eliminates the idea of a weak save at no cost to the players. And the skill boost eliminates certain skill challenges. I have been reading book 6 and the negotiation as written is pointless as many of the checks will be auto pass for half the party at that point
So lots of this is really my fault but I still think they would be massively stronger than the content without it
But I can’t really remove those thing now. Both for the uproar the easy things to remove would cause (feats etc) and the difficulty (ABP). Also unrestricted purchasing of stat boost would probably make the Kineticist even more powerful than he already is as they don’t need much else
What I quite like (in theory) about 2E is that it doesn’t seem like PCs get loads of boons over the top over enemies. A level 3 PC fighter will not be better than a Level 3 NPC guard - at least in baseline stats
They just get more tactical options
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Just as a heads up, a 25-point build is the equivalence to giving every single monster/antagonist/npc +1 to all of their stats. So if you gave your PCs a 20 point build and are having too easy a time? Give all the monsters/antagonists a +1 to all stats and it'll compensate both for the higher stats and a little toward the extra Feats and the like.
I largely do this as it really bugs me how many monsters have odd numbered stats just missing the next modifier. It is clearly a legacy thing but those “points” are just wasted
It honestly depends on the classes and stats.
I'm using a 25-point build myself. My players consist of the following:
Half-Orc Skald
Changeling Eldritch Scion Magus
Fetchling Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Halfling Grey Paladin/Unchained Rogue
Half Elf Gunslinger/Cleric/Inquisitor
Of the five, the one character with ungodly saving throws is the half-elf and that's because of the three classes (and he only dipped a toe in the first two). He also has the worse to-hit, mind you.
The Fetchling only has a +1 to the Will Save at level 4. Even with Iron Will, come level 17 they'll have, at most, a +15 and that's assuming they use magic to boost their Wisdom and also use a stat point at level 8, 12, or 16 to boost Wisdom as well. For a front-line fighter, that can be devastating. The group will have to ensure they have a Protection from Evil up to avoid Domination or the like.
For that matter, the Half Elf would only have at most a +15 to Reflex saves. Again, that's not all that good. (Also, the Half Elf already took Lightning Reflexes as a Feat - the Rebellion didn't give a bonus Feat for the saving throws.)
And if I notice the PCs are steamrollering through encounters? I'll toss on Simple Mythic Templates to boost the power of some of the foes. I'll also use different tactics to ensure flank bonuses and the like.
If PCs are too strong, there are ways to compensate. Being a couple steps ahead of them and anticipating (and finding ways around) their most powerful attacks can significantly lessen the impact of the enemy. Hell, one good illusion to draw out the melee types and then striking the casters with the real enemy is quite effective at disrupting players. Be sneaky and conniving.
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It honestly depends on the classes and stats.
I'm using a 25-point build myself. My players consist of the following:
Half-Orc Skald
Changeling Eldritch Scion Magus
Fetchling Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Halfling Grey Paladin/Unchained Rogue
Half Elf Gunslinger/Cleric/Inquisitor
Yeah, total absence of primary casters is going to make the party a lot less able to FUBAR the game at higher levels. Lanathar's problem PCs are a witch and a cleric (with the kineticist a problem largely because of their buffs).
Note that the iconic party for Hell's Rebels includes only one primary caster, the cleric Kyda. Although it occurs to me that the First Silver Ravens included an enchanter and a cleric. For my own little fanfic project novelizing the AP, the core party consists of a transmuter, an inquisitor, a bard, and an investigator albeit none of these are built at all well.
It honestly depends on the classes and stats.
I'm using a 25-point build myself. My players consist of the following:
Half-Orc Skald
Changeling Eldritch Scion Magus
Fetchling Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Halfling Grey Paladin/Unchained Rogue
Half Elf Gunslinger/Cleric/InquisitorOf the five, the one character with ungodly saving throws is the half-elf and that's because of the three classes (and he only dipped a toe in the first two). He also has the worse to-hit, mind you.
The Fetchling only has a +1 to the Will Save at level 4. Even with Iron Will, come level 17 they'll have, at most, a +15 and that's assuming they use magic to boost their Wisdom and also use a stat point at level 8, 12, or 16 to boost Wisdom as well. For a front-line fighter, that can be devastating. The group will have to ensure they have a Protection from Evil up to avoid Domination or the like.
For that matter, the Half Elf would only have at most a +15 to Reflex saves. Again, that's not all that good. (Also, the Half Elf already took Lightning Reflexes as a Feat - the Rebellion didn't give a bonus Feat for the saving throws.)
And if I notice the PCs are steamrollering through encounters? I'll toss on Simple Mythic Templates to boost the power of some of the foes. I'll also use different tactics to ensure flank bonuses and the like.
If PCs are too strong, there are ways to compensate. Being a couple steps ahead of them and anticipating (and finding ways around) their most powerful attacks can significantly lessen the impact of the enemy. Hell, one good illusion to draw out the melee types and then striking the casters with the real enemy is quite effective at disrupting players. Be sneaky and conniving.
That saving throw thing from the multiple classes is a real system quirk that was fixed through fractional bonuses in unchained. Problem is it is more complex than necessary unless you have hero lab
Something has clearly gone off with my game then because lowest save anyone seems to have at level 13 is +15. That is the group as a whole (or at least 3 of them).
But I might not be remembering them all correctly. And then two of them get a +2 three times a day, one has the hat of the free thinker from book 3 and everyone nearly always has +2 from Beacon of Hope via channel
Then +2 to fort for ward of the seasons (elf spell) and re rolls against certain effects. Plus the cleric’s ability to negate lots of effects anyway
So when most enemies have DC 20 or so abilities it is a bit of a joke . The enemy DCs really don’t scale well but templates can help
The mythic templates look interesting - thanks. First time something blocks a kinetic blast or a creature gets two turns in one round is going to be an interesting situation ...
I found the mythic monsters (non template ones) interesting because in most cases very little was done to boost attack rolls significantly. They still don’t look like they would hit my PCs very often . They are just more resilient and have a few more tricks. I like the mythic tricks like the bone devil bone burst as they remind me of all the unique abilities that got added in 2E
It honestly depends on the classes and stats.
I'm using a 25-point build myself. My players consist of the following:
Half-Orc Skald
Changeling Eldritch Scion Magus
Fetchling Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Halfling Grey Paladin/Unchained Rogue
Half Elf Gunslinger/Cleric/InquisitorYeah, total absence of primary casters is going to make the party a lot less able to FUBAR the game at higher levels. Lanathar's problem PCs are a witch and a cleric (with the kineticist a problem largely because of their buffs).
Note that the iconic party for Hell's Rebels includes only one primary caster, the cleric Kyda. Although it occurs to me that the First Silver Ravens included an enchanter and a cleric. For my own little fanfic project novelizing the AP, the core party consists of a transmuter, an inquisitor, a bard, and an investigator albeit none of these are built at all well.
Yes never underestimate the cleric. As at book 5 Heal is enormous . Bring someone straight back in. And if Blessing of Fervour is up they can even get up as a swift action without provoking
Witches are a straight up nightmare. I know there spell list isn’t as good but the power of hexes as you level up is absolutely incredible. Especially at unlimited use. I will never understand why more wasn’t released to counter them. It is insane to me that evil eye can apply a -4 to an enemy for at least one round with no save and as long as the witch spends a move action it is unlimited even if they passed the original save. That basically flies completely in the face of the established rules of the game
So does protective luck for that matter - altering an enemies ability to hit and they get no chance to save against it. It simply doesn’t make any sense and again breaks a lot of basic principles
Things like fortune and misfortune I can get on board with. Even slumber although i do believe that should have a cap related to how powerful the enemy is compare to the witch (like the 2E incapacitate principle)
But anyway I am digressing. But 9th level casters are horrendous. Yet due to inexplicable spell choices , inexplicably low DCs, low HP and well researched player counters enemy 9th level casters are often a minor annoyance
It honestly depends on the classes and stats.
I'm using a 25-point build myself. My players consist of the following:
Half-Orc Skald
Changeling Eldritch Scion Magus
Fetchling Mysterious Avenger Swashbuckler
Halfling Grey Paladin/Unchained Rogue
Half Elf Gunslinger/Cleric/InquisitorYeah, total absence of primary casters is going to make the party a lot less able to FUBAR the game at higher levels. Lanathar's problem PCs are a witch and a cleric (with the kineticist a problem largely because of their buffs).
Note that the iconic party for Hell's Rebels includes only one primary caster, the cleric Kyda. Although it occurs to me that the First Silver Ravens included an enchanter and a cleric. For my own little fanfic project novelizing the AP, the core party consists of a transmuter, an inquisitor, a bard, and an investigator albeit none of these are built at all well.
Who is the iconic party? Cleric , Rogue, Bard and ? Is it Fighter
Are the APs actually balances around the iconics selected or are the iconics just for art ?
Valeros is the fourth.
The APs are balanced around a 15-point build. The iconics are basically there for art.
The interesting thing is? My group is definitely built for RP rather than combat. The Paladin and Swashbuckler will likely be the primary threat to the final boss, but it's quite likely several members of the party will feel ineffectual going up against someone with an AC of 42. Then again, they could probably deal with the secondary enemies....
But yeah. The lack of uber-high-level spells will probably hurt them a bit. The Inquisitor won't even have 6th level spells at the end, especially if some of the players go with the one tier of Mythic. (Seeing that I'm using the Automatic Bonus Progression, I might offer players an option of either going Mythic or being treated as if they're several levels higher for the ABP system and thus get some nice Legendaries through ABP.)
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Valeros is the fourth.
The APs are balanced around a 15-point build. The iconics are basically there for art.
While this is true, the iconics that are chosen are telling of how the designers conceived of the game's intended tone, of which power level is a part. Valeros is here because he's a Caydenite and Kyra because she's a Sarenite, both faiths with a conceptual or actual interest in the events of Hell's Rebels. Lem's here because he's a former slave. As far as I can tell Merisiel's here because she's one of James Jacobs's waifus. But you end up with a fairly low-power (Kyra aside) party of underdogs that need to struggle through the events of the AP.
Merisiel might be there because Kyra is? Also many of the others are arguably poorer conceptual fits e.g. iomedae paladin, gnome druid with green hair and leopard, crazy lady with giant sword etc
One of my potential solutions is to consider keeping them a level or two back and see how that goes. That should ease the unbalancing effect that ABP seems to have had and caps some of the power.
I admit I am slightly confused by the later stages of ABP and am not keen on the free choice aspect of it. To me it looks like it breaks even further than it seems to already have done. So stopping before they get there is definitely on the cards
Also odd levels seems to be a big power bump for many classes. Casters get a new level of spells and kineticists get an absurd list of things at odds levels - with the design intent presumably to make up for not getting a new level of spell whilst happily ignoring that their powers are not capped in usage. The kineticist in my group can teleport 120 feet at will using “ride the blast”. And given the absurd way targeting works they can target an AC 5 square 120 feet away and just go there with no resources expended (utterly negated the weather and terrain at grundlescorns that I spent a fair amount of time checking into)
So not going to 17 is on the cards. Might even stop at 15
I've been making steady use of the following techniques since about book 3:
* assuming the characters are +2 or +3 level for encounter balancing
* boosting any encounter likely to be a 1-encounter day
* adding casters to all-martial Thrune encounters
* giving more major NPCs the devilbound template
* adding devils to encounters to even the action economy
* using advanced templates, simple class templates, and level ups
* switching out flavorful feat choices that players will never see
Remember--it's not just the point-buy for abilities that boosts PC power. It's also the number of books they have to build off of. If they're using more than core or the book the class originated, I add +1 level to the overall party level. That may go up to +2 at about 10th level.
I also delayed their level advancement in book 4.
I've been making steady use of the following techniques since about book 3:
* assuming the characters are +2 or +3 level for encounter balancing
* boosting any encounter likely to be a 1-encounter day
* adding casters to all-martial Thrune encounters
* giving more major NPCs the devilbound template
* adding devils to encounters to even the action economy
* using advanced templates, simple class templates, and level ups
* switching out flavorful feat choices that players will never seeRemember--it's not just the point-buy for abilities that boosts PC power. It's also the number of books they have to build off of. If they're using more than core or the book the class originated, I add +1 level to the overall party level. That may go up to +2 at about 10th level.
Thanks. I have been experimenting with several of these steps
For example if a devil has the ability to summon others they automatically have them there if they have any chance to do it (with 100% success) - and those are buffed. Especially the solo ones such as the Ice Devil and Handmaiden in book 5 (exception was the one in the summoning circle in 4)
I had looked at templates sometimes - so a book 5 Erinyes random encounter to drain resources on the way to the forest involved advanced Erinyes rangers. Ended up being nasty due to favoured enemy.
The caster thing is a good point . There is a giantslayer podcast out there where the party is massively ranged focused and the giants as written pretty much don’t get to the party. This can be similar in this. So in Urchins Maw there should have been another Skum caster because the rangers could do nothing against a party with two people with reach weapons and AOOs. It was suicide to even close the distance
The flavourful feat choices also went with me as well. Thrune lost all his crafting feats and got a reworked spell list including heroism
1 per day encounters are either boosted or a bunch of random ones added before hand. This started all the way in book 1
So it is good to know I have done several things that others have tried !
I think we might be on (yet another) hiatus because some of my players are seemingly struggling with Roll20. The cleric finds playing online more boring as the band aid when you are sitting in your room waiting ages for your turn which is then really quick because it is obvious what heal or buff you need to do.
And others don’t like it as much. Mix of already having to spend loads of time on a computer, it seeming to take longer and (sadly) it clearly shows your rolls and numbers for all to see.
But from all that it seems like that is my only pathway - carrying on with the edits and adjustments since I can’t take things away from the players mid game. Which is fair enough
On keeping them enemies one or two higher than the book expects are there any obvious pitfalls in later books that holding them back would do? For example if they rolled into book 6 at level 13 and not level 15 ?
I know at some levels the book expects you to either have or not have things like see invisibility and teleport . E.g. an overlevelled turn of the torrent doesn’t work as you have easy access to going through the locked door in the lucky bonesz
Book 6 levels seem like they maybe expect access to 8th level casting? But at that level I don’t think there is anything unique that comes in at 8th that weaker version isn’t already available for
And arguably the boss fight assumes potential access to 9th level spells if there is no multiclassing ...
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I actually like the thought of Barzillai Thrune being an Item Crafter because it adds added meaning to the items he gives the Ravens at the end of Book 2. He knows these items for scrying because he himself hand-crafted each one (maybe with some assistance from minions, but even so) and knows the minutia of each item. And this also flavors his interactions with the Ravens. If they sell off the items or hide them? He's dismissive of the Ravens and considers them crass mercenaries. If the Ravens use these items? He has added respect for them and treats them as more worthy opponents that he will enjoy crushing.
Further, he doesn't trust others. So he makes his own magic items when possible so something malicious isn't given to him.
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Lanathar it sounds like the players have become too powerful. I would throw a few assassination hits their way: every hit costs them a resurrection spell which is a bit expensive which should reduce their resources and until they really find a way to prevent these, it's gonna cost them. Perhaps a magic item or two each. And don't run these as encounters: look at part 1 of Book 6 for guidance on this. The PCs are just found dead in their sleep the next morning. Rinse, lather, repeat, until debuffed sufficiently.
There's much to be said about PCs with individual gear total that's above 100K gp and still stay in an inn that only charges 2gp a night... and if they stay in their HQ, have the HQ infiltrated over and over again. If they lose a lot of Silver Ravens on guard duty this may force them to rethink where they've invested all their GPs (i.e. on themselves instead of the organization).
Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.
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Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.
Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Lanathar it sounds like the players have become too powerful. I would throw a few assassination hits their way: every hit costs them a resurrection spell which is a bit expensive which should reduce their resources and until they really find a way to prevent these, it's gonna cost them. Perhaps a magic item or two each. And don't run these as encounters: look at part 1 of Book 6 for guidance on this. The PCs are just found dead in their sleep the next morning. Rinse, lather, repeat, until debuffed sufficiently.
There's much to be said about PCs with individual gear total that's above 100K gp and still stay in an inn that only charges 2gp a night... and if they stay in their HQ, have the HQ infiltrated over and over again. If they lose a lot of Silver Ravens on guard duty this may force them to rethink where they've invested all their GPs (i.e. on themselves instead of the organization).
Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.
I was going to bring up the insane fortitude of my players but you mean coup de grace at night
I think they have only very light magical protection but I can’t remember what it is and asking will prompt a reassessment
But unfortunately I will get furious anger and tantrums if i do the above.
And group is already wavering.
Somehow the adventure has become entirely reliant on one player being enthusiastic and when he isn’t, somehow, the game doesn’t really move ahead. Others think if he quits the game will fall apart (which is insane to me)
And they currently say they are not having fun at the moment and “Roll20 isn’t helping” - implying it is not really the reason but they haven’t said what is. And not being able to talk face to face makes it almost impossible to resolve
So people don’t want to play but don’t want to quit a game we started two years ago and are in book 5 of (a source of no end of frustration to me as I wanted to end in book 4 and they ALL talked me out of it and said they wanted to finish it. But they apparently don’t want to play either . And it seems like when they snap their fingers I am supposed to suddenly boot it all back up again - which I kind of do as I don’t have anyone else to game with
I think the players know I have been making things a lot harder and see it more of punishment for making characters that are too strong than a compliment for trivialising the book content. And there also seems to be an element where I think some members of the group just want to “god mode” it and be rewarded for their builds and others want (at least the illusion of) a challenge to remain. And PF1 can easily go either way but doesn’t do well as catering to both
It is all tough and this feels like one of the few places I can post on it without coming up with pseudonyms and trying to be vague about details (and get accused of being a troll). I want to avoid doxing myself like i already have done to my group on the paizo boards. (To me this is different because if there is a hint that anyone has read the GM only forum for this AP then they will be out of the game no matter what)
So sorry if this is a derail but that is what is happening to my game in this book (a derail)
(I was hoping Mangvhune could solve some issues with death attack but that is still dice dependent and as mentioned save vs death is likely to be poorly received by players and met with - how on earth could we have avoided that other than “roll higher”. And I admit I am not sure how I would react if my character of two years died to someone doing a death attack from a hide in plain sight with a stealth check I couldn’t had a slim hope of beating...)
Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Apologies is this you saying that you really aren’t a fan of this idea?
I don’t think I will be doing this one as in my case it amounts to about 3 skill points, skill feat and save feat and the general featNot overwhelming but enough for HP top up and most importantly offsetting a weak save leaving no real holes in my PCs defences
I stopped before the ranks could be achieved for the free feat . And there was some clear resentment there. I was met with “that was a really badly designed mini game” and “was there anyway we could have “won” that mini game and got to the highest rank”
Removing these bonuses would get me “If I had known i was going to lose these feats then I would have built differently / pick different ones”. For example the Kineticist might have used a bonus slot for toughness which is considered a vital feat for them and they wouldn’t have gambled on losing it (they could have got I.I. - I honestly do not remember).
If I was to even consider it I would have to let them have the option of dropping another feat to retain one they gained through the rebellion
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Apologies is this you saying that you really aren’t a fan of this idea?Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Emphatically.
Emphatically.Apologies is this you saying that you really aren’t a fan of this idea?Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Neither am I.
I know full well I can’t take away what I have already given which is where some of the difficultly liesIncidentally your post on linking the figures from this AP to the 1918 revolution came up on reddit the other day. A post about historical parallels in golarion
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Emphatically.Apologies is this you saying that you really aren’t a fan of this idea?Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Neither am I.
I know full well I can’t take away what I have already given which is where some of the difficultly liesIncidentally your post on linking the figures from this AP to the 1918 revolution came up on reddit the other day. A post about historical parallels in golarion
Cool. Could I trouble you for a link to the thread? My thinking's evolved somewhat since then (while the references are to 1917-18, the situation's a lot more comparable to Spain in 1863, especially insofar as the revolutionaries are largely liberal and Jacobin with working-class organization and socialism in their infancies), and an intervention may be called for.
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But unfortunately I will get furious anger and tantrums if i do the above.
And group is already wavering.
Somehow the adventure has become entirely reliant on one player being enthusiastic and when he isn’t, somehow, the game doesn’t really move ahead. Others think if he quits the game will fall apart (which is insane to me)
And they currently say they are not having fun at the moment and “Roll20 isn’t helping” - implying it is not really the reason but they haven’t said what is. And not being able to talk face to face makes it almost impossible to resolve
So people don’t want to play but don’t...
I'm sorry then... in light of what you just said I'll amend my recommendations to the following: cease this campaign immediately. There's a weird relationship existing between you and your players right now, where they are holding you in ransom, somehow, threatening to quit if you don't do their bidding. The other way would be to have an adult talk with them. If that's not possible due to fear or whatnot, pull the plug yourself and find a new group to play in or GM for.
There's a serious pre-existing lack of balance in this AP. It is an overall cakewalk. It is meant for roguish types (more for Agents of SHIELD than for Avengers). So in effect you'll lose control of the campaign at character creation if you're not careful. The only other way is stop giving gold and let them drag about two levels behind the book's recommendation...
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Cool. Could I trouble you for a link to the thread? My thinking's evolved somewhat since then (while the references are to 1917-18, the situation's a lot more comparable to Spain in 1863, especially insofar as the revolutionaries are largely liberal and Jacobin with working-class organization and socialism in their infancies), and an intervention may be called for.Emphatically.Apologies is this you saying that you really aren’t a fan of this idea?Finally, after the defeat of Brazillai end of Book 4, I would immediately 'disband' the Silver Ravens and all bonus feats the organization grants. Those guys and gals have gone back to work in Kintargo now, and the reason for their existence is now moot.Ugh, spare me.
Rather than that, have a leadership election, which the PCs lose.
Neither am I.
I know full well I can’t take away what I have already given which is where some of the difficultly liesIncidentally your post on linking the figures from this AP to the 1918 revolution came up on reddit the other day. A post about historical parallels in golarion
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/g0n8d6/what_is_your_favori te_historical_reference_in/?st=K90CJBQY&sh=bd3bf035
But unfortunately I will get furious anger and tantrums if i do the above.
And group is already wavering.
Somehow the adventure has become entirely reliant on one player being enthusiastic and when he isn’t, somehow, the game doesn’t really move ahead. Others think if he quits the game will fall apart (which is insane to me)
And they currently say they are not having fun at the moment and “Roll20 isn’t helping” - implying it is not really the reason but they haven’t said what is. And not being able to talk face to face makes it almost impossible to resolve
So people don’t want to play but don’t...
I'm sorry then... in light of what you just said I'll amend my recommendations to the following: cease this campaign immediately. There's a weird relationship existing between you and your players right now, where they are holding you in ransom, somehow, threatening to quit if you don't do their bidding. The other way would be to have an adult talk with them. If that's not possible due to fear or whatnot, pull the plug yourself and find a new group to play in or GM for.
There's a serious pre-existing lack of balance in this AP. It is an overall cakewalk. It is meant for roguish types (more for Agents of SHIELD than for Avengers). So in effect you'll lose control of the campaign at character creation if you're not careful. The only other way is stop giving gold and let them drag about two levels behind the book's recommendation...
Thanks. I hadn’t considered the principle of it being meant for rogue types. In theory a swashbuckler, lightly armoured cleric, witch and Kineticist fit that
In practice with buffs , level dips, prestige classes and the way Dex to AC works in 1E AC is mid 30s for any semi important fight
But if this ever gets going again I will be keeping them behind in levels. But I will be waiting for them to come to me requesting a game first (at least for this particular game)
Unfortunately at the moment I have very limited options for a group that would meet in person in normal circumstances (which I will eventually happen). Online games definitely seem inferior - mainly from a player perspective
But perhaps I should use quarantine to try and find another avenue to play so that I am not reliant on the whims of a couple of people to play at all
I've been running Hell's Rebels online since Day 1. And to be honest, as I learn the ins and outs of Roll20 it improves more and more.
For instance, you can have the character sheets on Roll20, allowing people to just click a skill or the like and have their bonuses and penalties factored in. Likewise, you can have enemies in Roll20 and their bonuses and penalties factored in. This helps speed the game up and also allows for more roleplaying as players don't need to look things up all the time... but if your players don't like looking things up, they risk having abilities they never use.
Of course, this is also the case for tabletop players. If someone fails to learn the rules, then they end up just taking up space and time. And we've all known players like that, I'm sure.
There are elements in Roll20 that can truly bring the game to life and even allow for greater enjoyment than the tabletop version - a paid subscription to Roll20 enables Dynamic Lighting so that players can't see around corners ahead of time or the like, should you take the time to map it out. And the video/audio aspect of Roll20 (if you can figure it out and get everyone else to use it properly) even allow for players to look at each other while playing.
What you and your players get out of it depends on what you put into it. And yes, I know the Social Distancing puts a damper on gaming... but this is a way around it.
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And group is already wavering... Somehow the adventure has become entirely reliant on one player being enthusiastic... when he isn’t... the game doesn’t really move ahead. Others think if he quits the game will fall apart...
...they are not having fun at the moment and “Roll20 isn’t helping” - implying it is not really the reason but they haven’t said what is...
So people don’t want to play but don’t want to quit a game we started two years ago and are in book 5... But they apparently don’t want to play either...
Seriously, just end the game. Are you enjoying running the game? It doesn't sound like it. Are your players enjoying the game? It doesn't sound like it. (Otherwise they wouldn't feel like the game will fall apart without one specific player being there).
I'm sorry that you continued beyond book 4. It was such a great place to end the story. High level play is not for every group and your group seems to be fairly diametrically opposed when it comes to how they think the game should be run. Some want it too easy (run exactly as written) and get mad that you make things just a little more difficult. Others want it to be hard (but not too hard) and get mad when it's too easy.
You can't please all of them and no one seems to be having fun with the game, especially you.
Either end it and start a new campaign (possibly with someone else running it) or end it and get together weekly online to chat and catch up with each other. Something, ANYTHING, that everyone is having fun doing, because this game sure doesn't seem like it's fun for your group.
I've been running Hell's Rebels online since Day 1. And to be honest, as I learn the ins and outs of Roll20 it improves more and more.
For instance, you can have the character sheets on Roll20, allowing people to just click a skill or the like and have their bonuses and penalties factored in. Likewise, you can have enemies in Roll20 and their bonuses and penalties factored in. This helps speed the game up and also allows for more roleplaying as players don't need to look things up all the time... but if your players don't like looking things up, they risk having abilities they never use.
Of course, this is also the case for tabletop players. If someone fails to learn the rules, then they end up just taking up space and time. And we've all known players like that, I'm sure.
There are elements in Roll20 that can truly bring the game to life and even allow for greater enjoyment than the tabletop version - a paid subscription to Roll20 enables Dynamic Lighting so that players can't see around corners ahead of time or the like, should you take the time to map it out. And the video/audio aspect of Roll20 (if you can figure it out and get everyone else to use it properly) even allow for players to look at each other while playing.
What you and your players get out of it depends on what you put into it. And yes, I know the Social Distancing puts a damper on gaming... but this is a way around it.
I didn’t know about any of the character sheet functions! Something to look into
We have already lost one player due to them not being interested in learning the rules at all
From what I have been told one of the main Roll20 difficulties has become turn times at high level. So that cleric player quickly knows what heal or buff is required and takes no more than a minute and can then have to wait 10 minutes plus until his next turn due to ally and enemy actions
And in that time rather than being able to exchange looks and jokes with friends they are sitting alone in a room.
And apparently if a player is feeling victimised (by me) - which is apparently common - they are much more likely to sit and let that resentment fester even if it is misplaced
And group is already wavering... Somehow the adventure has become entirely reliant on one player being enthusiastic... when he isn’t... the game doesn’t really move ahead. Others think if he quits the game will fall apart...
...they are not having fun at the moment and “Roll20 isn’t helping” - implying it is not really the reason but they haven’t said what is...
So people don’t want to play but don’t want to quit a game we started two years ago and are in book 5... But they apparently don’t want to play either...
Seriously, just end the game. Are you enjoying running the game? It doesn't sound like it. Are your players enjoying the game? It doesn't sound like it. (Otherwise they wouldn't feel like the game will fall apart without one specific player being there).
I'm sorry that you continued beyond book 4. It was such a great place to end the story. High level play is not for every group and your group seems to be fairly diametrically opposed when it comes to how they think the game should be run. Some want it too easy (run exactly as written) and get mad that you make things just a little more difficult. Others want it to be hard (but not too hard) and get mad when it's too easy.
You can't please all of them and no one seems to be having fun with the game, especially you.Either end it and start a new campaign (possibly with someone else running it) or end it and get together weekly online to chat and catch up with each other. Something, ANYTHING, that everyone is having fun doing, because this game sure doesn't seem like it's fun for your group.
Yes you are right. You also know a bit more than most due to some PMs (so know this isn’t the first time this game has become strained)
It is very much on hiatus now and it is going to take a lot for me to consider running it again. Part of playing was seeing old friends from school and my brother more regularly than I would without playing .
But you are right that I am not enjoying running it and at all of the players have aspects that they are not enjoying when we play (some larger than others). Some resent difficulty, some resent any attempt at magic item limitations , some resent the seeming power or abilities of other members of the group.
I am so angry they professed so much enthusiasm to finish the AP only just before Christmas. And looking back some of the chief reasons were about how hardly anyone ever gets to the end of the end of an AP (and I have never actually played with anyone who has). And also to know what happens in the story
But thanks for all the advice - I didn’t mean to drag things down!
It's all good, Lanathar.
High level play really does get way more involved than people think. Some classes, and some players, have an easier time with it. Some really struggle. I'm a few days away from finishing the 3rd AP I've run and the last book and a half has reminded me why the last 3rd of an AP is both exciting and a drag. Finishing the story: Awesome! So much excitement! Seeing a player take 10 minutes to figure out their turn even when they've been paying attention and trying to strategize during other people's turns: Boo! Me figuring out what the enemies are doing: Boo! Takes too long, especially when they're a caster or an unusual class... never mind the prep-time involved in figuring out the class and how it works only to have the enemy die in 1 1/2 rounds.
I'm honestly sorry that your group has gone the way it did. Finishing a full AP is quite an accomplishment and it's not something most groups manage to do. But finishing an AP when people aren't having fun isn't worth it. Every AP that I've been a player in, either the group has fallen apart or the GM gave up right near the end of book 4 / beginning of book 5. High level playing isn't broken, but boy-oh-boy! is it ever different from levels 1-12. The power levels of the PCs and enemies starts to become problematic. And if the PCs are built decently it becomes even worse due to it becoming rocket-tag. And then people get mad because they could die within 2 turns.
Looking at what will come next, I'm planning on running one more that gets above level 14 and then the next couple will end earlier than that. (Skull & Shackles ends at 13 or 14, IIRC, and I've heard that the first 3 books of Carrion Crown make a really good campaign and all you have to do to make it seem like a full story is remove one small thing at the very end of the 3rd book.)
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And then people get mad because they could die within 2 turns.
Two ten-minute turns, though. That's longer in real time than most low-level combats take :v
Probably uses more actions per turn, too, as high-level abilities bring in swift actions and alternative uses for move actions.
***and now for something completely different, a paragraph on-topic***
Lanathar, since you say the game's on hiatus now, you don't have to come to a decision about whether to end it right away. Take some time, see how you and your players feel in a month or so. Let someone else run a short game in the interim, to keep in touch (and also to gain an appreciation for Roll20 from the GM side). Build an OP PC for yourself and get in some cathartic murderhoboing with a prescribed end-date.
I've been running Hell's Rebels online since Day 1. And to be honest, as I learn the ins and outs of Roll20 it improves more and more.
For instance, you can have the character sheets on Roll20, allowing people to just click a skill or the like and have their bonuses and penalties factored in. Likewise, you can have enemies in Roll20 and their bonuses and penalties factored in. This helps speed the game up and also allows for more roleplaying as players don't need to look things up all the time... but if your players don't like looking things up, they risk having abilities they never use.
Of course, this is also the case for tabletop players. If someone fails to learn the rules, then they end up just taking up space and time. And we've all known players like that, I'm sure.
There are elements in Roll20 that can truly bring the game to life and even allow for greater enjoyment than the tabletop version - a paid subscription to Roll20 enables Dynamic Lighting so that players can't see around corners ahead of time or the like, should you take the time to map it out. And the video/audio aspect of Roll20 (if you can figure it out and get everyone else to use it properly) even allow for players to look at each other while playing.
What you and your players get out of it depends on what you put into it. And yes, I know the Social Distancing puts a damper on gaming... but this is a way around it.
I didn’t know about any of the character sheet functions! Something to look into
We have already lost one player due to them not being interested in learning the rules at all
From what I have been told one of the main Roll20 difficulties has become turn times at high level. So that cleric player quickly knows what heal or buff is required and takes no more than a minute and can then have to wait 10 minutes plus until his next turn due to ally and enemy actions
And in that time rather than being able to exchange looks and jokes with friends they are sitting alone in a
...
Okay. My recommendation?
It would take too long to learn the character sheets and the like and build them up for a high level character. Your players are also not enjoying this high level aspect. And the fact that a turn can last an hour can be quite frustrating and boring.
So you could just ask them if they want to skip ahead to the final boss battle and save Kintargo, or if they want to start an entirely new Adventure Path with 1st level characters, utilizing the full functionality of Roll20.
Tell them that they can use webcams to see each other on Roll20, or use Discord video to do that. (Or even Skype!) And then start fresh with a new game. The players can learn the Character Sheets (which even includes a "Charactomancer" with the core classes to help people build their level 1 characters) and have fun learning a new system while having a lot of functionality built into the game.
(Another useful thing in Roll20 character sheets is that (with the Core Rules at least) if you find something like a weapon or Feat or Spell, you can pull it over to the character sheet and it auto-populates it! So your work is lessened.)
Roll20 has a bunch of video demos explaining a lot of it. And if you have other questions, PM me and I'll help further (it might take me a couple days or so to notice the PMs, I can be unobservant at times!).
But yeah. At this point, I say start a new AP. Ask your players if they want to level up to 17th level and fight the final battle, or start a new AP at level 1. And in the case of the latter, you can fully integrate Roll20 into the game.
(As an aside, I've one game that is half-tabletop and half-remote, and we were using Roll20 for almost everything. Players would bring tablets or Chromebooks to the game and use them to access Roll20 while still interact with each other... and have video so the remote players could see each other. Amusingly enough, my remote-only game (which is Hell's Rebels) we don't bother with Video due to connectivity issues, and if the sound gets glitchy type everything.)
Good luck!
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The main task a GM must do when they hit a roadblock like this is take a break and analyze their group. Sit down, close your eyes, and go over each player one by one, taking note of their play style, whether they are paying attention or playing on their phones while you run the game, whether they know the rules or not, etc.
Then look at yourself, and take notes on your GMing style, how you talk to them, how fast you run the game, how much details you provide before you say 'roll initiative.'
Then compare your GMing style with their playing style.
Sometimes the answer is for the GM to relax and goof off more. 'Always' being the 'serious' one and nagging group should not be the GM's default. Very rarely does 'being serious and businesslike' the good answer for a GM (perhaps never). The players have to feel like you're enjoying yourself.
Finally, are you running this for PFS credit or not?
...I've been running Hell's Rebels online since Day 1. And to be honest, as I learn the ins and outs of Roll20 it improves more and more.
For instance, you can have the character sheets on Roll20, allowing people to just click a skill or the like and have their bonuses and penalties factored in. Likewise, you can have enemies in Roll20 and their bonuses and penalties factored in. This helps speed the game up and also allows for more roleplaying as players don't need to look things up all the time... but if your players don't like looking things up, they risk having abilities they never use.
Of course, this is also the case for tabletop players. If someone fails to learn the rules, then they end up just taking up space and time. And we've all known players like that, I'm sure.
There are elements in Roll20 that can truly bring the game to life and even allow for greater enjoyment than the tabletop version - a paid subscription to Roll20 enables Dynamic Lighting so that players can't see around corners ahead of time or the like, should you take the time to map it out. And the video/audio aspect of Roll20 (if you can figure it out and get everyone else to use it properly) even allow for players to look at each other while playing.
What you and your players get out of it depends on what you put into it. And yes, I know the Social Distancing puts a damper on gaming... but this is a way around it.
I didn’t know about any of the character sheet functions! Something to look into
We have already lost one player due to them not being interested in learning the rules at all
From what I have been told one of the main Roll20 difficulties has become turn times at high level. So that cleric player quickly knows what heal or buff is required and takes no more than a minute and can then have to wait 10 minutes plus until his next turn due to ally and enemy actions
And in that time rather than being able to exchange looks and jokes with friends they
Thanks for this . We tried Roll20 video on the first quarantine session and it didn’t work
Does the in built character sheet work for other games like 2E?
It's all good, Lanathar.
High level play really does get way more involved than people think. Some classes, and some players, have an easier time with it. Some really struggle. I'm a few days away from finishing the 3rd AP I've run and the last book and a half has reminded me why the last 3rd of an AP is both exciting and a drag. Finishing the story: Awesome! So much excitement! Seeing a player take 10 minutes to figure out their turn even when they've been paying attention and trying to strategize during other people's turns: Boo! Me figuring out what the enemies are doing: Boo! Takes too long, especially when they're a caster or an unusual class... never mind the prep-time involved in figuring out the class and how it works only to have the enemy die in 1 1/2 rounds.I'm honestly sorry that your group has gone the way it did. Finishing a full AP is quite an accomplishment and it's not something most groups manage to do. But finishing an AP when people aren't having fun isn't worth it. Every AP that I've been a player in, either the group has fallen apart or the GM gave up right near the end of book 4 / beginning of book 5. High level playing isn't broken, but boy-oh-boy! is it ever different from levels 1-12. The power levels of the PCs and enemies starts to become problematic. And if the PCs are built decently it becomes even worse due to it becoming rocket-tag. And then people get mad because they could die within 2 turns.
Looking at what will come next, I'm planning on running one more that gets above level 14 and then the next couple will end earlier than that. (Skull & Shackles ends at 13 or 14, IIRC, and I've heard that the first 3 books of Carrion Crown make a really good campaign and all you have to do to make it seem like a full story is remove one small thing at the very end of the 3rd book.)
Yes the rocket tag element does seem concerning. Because although my PCs are incredibly powerful there are still some things either in 5 or that i know of in 6 that have the scope to take them down - and quite quickly. And not even with bad rolls
For example:
- Charybdis got one player and very nearly successfully digested him. And despite my exasperation if we not for the kineticist doing 200 points of damage in a turn they would have died
- Greater shadows in the shadow temple. If one manages to get two hits with above average on the strength damage then it is a dead PC. The strengths of my group are 10, 10, 12, 14
- Assassin death attack in both end of 5 and beginning of 6. Notably with hide in plain sight meaning even the invisibility lamp won’t help
- the whole soul anchor looks like bad news. An incorporeal dragon and witchfire with levels. Granted the witchfire can probably be nullified with energy protection but with lots of damage being halved against her she might have the staying power to dispel it.
*
I am always intrigued by ways of ending APs earlier and which it is possible for
Carrion Crown I think that more mentions in the first three books of the book 3 villain than the main one
I am currently taking a look at Plunder and Peril as it looks like that can be split into three itself and ended at any point . Or you can add book 3 of Skull and Shackles afterwards (and potentially end after that)
Thanks for this. We tried Roll20 video on the first quarantine session and it didn’t work
Does the in built character sheet work for other games like 2E?
Short answer: maybe?
Longer: I've only used 2E for the Playtest and back then didn't know about the full functionality of the character sheets. However, they do have an official Wiki with information on it here: https://wiki.roll20.net/Pathfinder_Second_Edition_Official
They also have paid packs for 1st edition Adventure Path campaigns but it's $25 per book, and they only have the first half of Return of the Runelords and all of War of the Crown available (and the entirety of Rise of the Runelords for $60). I just upload the maps and do the hard work myself on uploading enemies and the like, and for something simple like critters found in the first Bestiary, you can literally pull it from the Compendium tab (the circle with the "i" in it) to the NPC character sheet and it fills a lot of the information for you.
(I recommend Editing the NPC sheet afterward (clicking the Cogwheel in the right corner) and clicking all of the Configuration tabs (for Roll queries) as you can put in penalties or bonuses as-needed.)
Two other things. I personally give my 1st edition Pathfinder characters double hit points for 1st level. I call it the "No Squishy Bonus." Second, given how effective your players seem to be in building tough characters? Limit them to 15-point builds for any new campaign.
Combined with the No Squishy Bonus, it helps them remain alive for that much longer in-game... but the lack of better-than-average stats will keep them from becoming completely uber at higher levels.
Also, they have a Free 2nd Edition Pathfinder adventure for 1st level characters in the Roll20 Marketplace (search for 2nd edition Pathfinder when in the Marketplace, it's called "Torment and Legacy").
Has anyone had the professor successfully Death Attack a PC?
I have just noticed he has hide in plain sight which gives him an opportunity even if they have see invisibility or the lanternIt seems like it could be a tough pill to swallow but a perfectly legitimate tactic if they fail the perception and then the fortitude save (unlikely in my group’s case)
Has it happened and if so how did it go down?
Mangvhune did two death attacks against two different PCs.
N.B We don't use raise dead-mechanics in this AP, so the PCs are cautious. To balance it a bit we use Hero Points, but I give them out very sparingly, and they can only be used as a mod to a d20 roll.
Mangvhune teleported in, under Gr Invis, during the fight with the alchemist (who only got one single attack off, even though I increased the number of mooks and added a vrock, high level PF1 is so very, very broken), studied one of the PCs and attacked him in the back.
The player smelled the bad news coming (I had given them a clue from a overheard discussion between the cambions in the first room) and used his single hero point for the fort save, and made it. Was still a lot of damage though, full barrage of sneak attacks and bleed on an already damaged character (I use advanced template, sometimes the double one, on all opponents so the prof was quite a tough cookie). Then the professor teleported out - one PC had Invis Purge running he turned visible and he had no more allies present.
Then he used a swift Death Attack on the party cleric during the fight in the theatre (I had the ghost audience attack the PCs as spectres, 4 each 2 rounds, so there was a lot of flanking). He didn't have any hero points left, so another player gave him his, which granted half the bonus. A very exciting roll resulted in another successful save.
Permanent PC death this far into the campaign is a struggle, since it's hard to get a new PC in for many reasons. But the dice must be allowed to fall as they may. Especially the player's dice ;-)
Thanks. I hadn’t considered the principle of it being meant for rogue types. In theory a swashbuckler, lightly armoured cleric, witch and Kineticist fit that
Yeah but they are advanced classes three of them. Look at the core rule book iconics. If your players would play these, role play and story-adjusted 15 pointers, the adventure as written would be on a decent level.
Now it sounds like your group has found the cheat codes in a FPS game, by optimizing hard. While fun for 5 minutes, it then kills the enjoyment.
Our group consists of only core classes (two with archetypes though, a sorc, an urban ranger, a cayden cleric and lore warden fighter) albeit 20p builds, and my players, while smart guys, are not nearly as invested and/or interested in researching the optimal as yours seem to be.
Still, I use the Advanced template on _everything_, and all bosses have double Advanced template. All boss fights are 4-6 above the party's CR. All DC's are +4 to +6. That's what's needed for making it an exciting and moderately challenging game, forcing the players to (sometimes) think tactically with debuffs and strategies and such. As others have proposed, since your PCs are mythic, the monsters need to be as well. Apply mythic template to all bosses. Seems your players have about optimized as much as possible, so it can't get much worse from their power level.
Then again, reading how the fun has disappeared, I would actually instead suggest you either let them steam roll the campaign for shts and giggles, and for the nice feeling of having finished an AP, or just start with another AP. Maybe something harder, like Wrath of the Righteous without mythic for the PCs, or even better, an AP for PF2 which is (at the moment) balanced better.
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2E is definitely on my list for balance reasons
I might look at Rise in 2E though if people want to play it.
Right now I am not drawn to the first two 2E APs
And @Tangent - I have discovered the character sheet part for 2E in Roll20 and it looks like it will make things a lot easier. It also means I can more easily link in the turn tracker which I haven't used
And @Tangent - I have discovered the character sheet part for 2E in Roll20 and it looks like it will make things a lot easier. It also means I can more easily link in the turn tracker which I haven't used
For Turn Tracker, open the turn tracker, then click on the character icon on screen, then command-u (or I guess that's a left click when not using a mac). You'll need to do that for each time you log in to the game--it looks like it continues for each new page you're in or each new time you log in to the game, but that's only for you, the players don't see that.
One interesting thing about the Turn Tracker is that if a character has their character icon clicked and then clicks on Initiative on their character sheet, their initiative will auto-populate into the Turn Tracker. :)
One interesting thing about the Turn Tracker is that if a character has their character icon clicked and then clicks on Initiative on their character sheet, their initiative will auto-populate into the Turn Tracker. :)
Does this always work? As it didn’t seem to last night. I needed to click on add turn and then the players click initiative on their sheet. But it does auto populate
It will be a lifesaver as I always get confused on my initiative
Only downside is it will have to show hidden enemies unless I keep them off tracker until they appear and then manually edit their initiative when I enter them. But that is only a small thing
The character sheets allowed me to click on players sheets and whisper rolls to myself for secret checks
Probably doesn’t save time as I need to cycle through 4 rather than roll dice and add. But it means I don’t need to ask for the relevant skill and don’t need to do the addition (even if it is simple!).