Gauss |
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After. However, you do not start out at middle age or older. The ages you start out at are on CRB p169.
Now, many people might try to game the system by getting extra age bonuses but then you have to explain why you have not had any kind of career (even an NPC class of Commoner) until you are middle age.
Frankly, any GM should immediately tell you no.
Lost In Limbo |
Age modifiers come after point buy. Point buy comes before all other stat modifications in fact.
As for imbalance, yes it's an easy way to pump up your mental stats.
However, in my own games (and in the games of many other GMs I've seen) either player's aren't allowed to start off in the older age categories or else the stat modifications are ignored (as in PFS).
Maezer |
Its after. And its no cheaper than getting a race with an attribute modifier. That said, If you really want to be a rules guy though, starting age is defined as well, and you will likely find it difficult to start at middle age or later.
Lifat |
To answer the OP's question: As others have said, age modifiers are applied after point buy. In fact, I don't know of any stat modifiers that are applied before point buy.
@Gauss. You are correct that none of the CRB races can randomly start out as middle-age even if you roll max. But for aasimars with a "trained" class the average random age is actually middle age, and if you roll high enough you can get into the old category aswell. So technically speaking using that as a defense isn't good enough.
Personally speaking I would as a GM smack any player that tried to pull off getting age modifiers at playstart, unless we started at a reasonably high lvl.
Gauss |
Lifat, that's only because incompletely changed the ages for Aasimar and Tiefling, they dropped the base age and the age points without dropping the dice.
According to the Devs the Aasimar and Tieflings are supposed to have approximately human ages.
Frankly, it seems they didn't put a lot of thought into it. They should either have an adult age of 15 or they should have longer life spans like every other race that starts at 20.
Lifat |
Lifat, that's only because incompletely changed the ages for Aasimar and Tiefling, they dropped the base age and the age points without dropping the dice.
According to the Devs the Aasimar and Tieflings are supposed to have approximately human ages.
Frankly, it seems they didn't put a lot of thought into it. They should either have an adult age of 15 or they should have longer life spans like every other race that starts at 20.
Assuming a "trained" class here is the list of races that can start out as middle-age or above:
Aasimar/Tiefling: 20+8d6= 48, middle-age 35, old 53. Averagely middle-aged, potentially old-age.
Dhampir: 20+10d6= 55, middle-age 35, old 53, venerable 70. Averagely old-aged, potentially venerable.
Goblin/Kobold/Orc/Ratfolk/Grippli/Strix: 12+2d6= 19, middle-age 20. Averagely adult, potentially middle-aged.
I've now shown 3 different age categories that can randomly reach middle-age or more following the normal rules. These could all be mistakes, but it is a rather long list.
I'm not saying that you should allow people to start of with age modifiers to stats. I'm simply stating that you shouldn't hide behind "you can't do it because the rules say you can't", because clearly you can given the right races. Personally I would instead tell the player that it is a way to gain to much power that you aren't comfortable with and that you will allow any age, but it will be without modifiers.
Gauss |
In the case of Aasimar, Tieflings, and Dhampir, they changed the base age without also changing the dice. That is probably an error.
In the case of Goblins, Kobolds, Orcs, Ratfolk, Grippli, and Strix, they did not make any changes and yes, they could possibly be middle aged. But that is a function of the long (minimum...2d6) time it takes to be trained in a "trained" class. I think they should have dropped the 2d6 to 1d8 or not gone with such a young starting/middle age.
Please note that I never said "you can't do it because the rules say you can't". I didn't even come close to such a statement. I said to check the starting ages in the CRB that none of them allow you to start middle aged. I didn't even mention the ARG. In any case, use of the ARG is entirely optional, I was only referencing the CRB.
DM_Blake |
Here is the easy answer for the OP's question:
If you make a character and a normal young adult age and then play him for many (in-game) years until he hits an age bracket where age modifiers apply, ask yourself: which came first, the point-buy or the age modifiers?
That answer is easy, but then apply the same answer to starting characters.
DM_Blake |
Here's another easy answer for the OP's question:
If you roll dice for your character and write down his ability scores, do the dice know what age the character is? Do you automatically roll some scores extra low and some scores extra high because he's old?
If the dice don't do it, neither does the point-buy, because they are interchangeable methods of generating ability scores.
David knott 242 |
Personally, I'd allow it for a campaign that began at a higher level, but the only way I'd let you be a level 1 character with age adjustments is is you were an Amnesiac Psychic.
Then again, maybe the character is a late bloomer? They were content to be non-adventurous members of an NPC class until something happened after they were middle-aged or older to prompt them to go adventuring? After all -- if an elf can live 110+ years without gaining any levels beyond 1st, why can't a human do that after living a shorter period of time?
But while all sorts of flavor arguments can be made for starting a character at middle-aged or older, the fact remains that you could be seen as gaming the system for mechanical advantage, so whether a player should be allowed to do that is strictly an individual GM decision.