Underwhelmed with Unchained Monk

[necromental]

I know it's not a solution for those who play PFS but Alexander Augunas' Everyman Gaming has Unchained Monk Archetypes part 1 and part 2.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Secret Wizard wrote:

And 41 AC unbuffed???? That HAS to be with Barkskin on.

Yes it is. My apologies. What I should have said is 'without outside buffing'.

Secret Wizard wrote:

Level 12th is the best level for the Sohei, and you just break even with the defensive build in terms of damage...

1. You'll have no argument from me that an offensive STR unchained build can out-damage a DEX Sohei. (I've seen STR Sohei in armor with competitive damage due to Brawling etc - but they give up much more defense than a STR Umonk by 12. I think Umonks do STR better.)

2. I believe that I mentioned at least once up-thread that Umonk definitely trumps Sohei as a beatstick until the Sohei can afford Gloves of Dueling.

3. 12th is a good level for Umonk too. Much lower - at levels 8-10 - they're an attack behind old monk. At 16+ PA goes from a decent choice to a bad one due to another iterative at -15, and the penalty going up to -5 which isn't worth the extra 3 damage. (True of everyone - not just Umonk - though with pounce it's always true for them.)

I'd actually say that the higher levels Sohei goes further ahead due also to all builds gaining more and more static damage from items/stats etc - and the Sohei being more accurate.

Just a Flaming added to the AoMF will up the Sohei's DPR by 11.4 (I'd probably have that by 12 - but I didn't want to spend much more gold on offense than your build). Flaming would add only 4.9 to the Umonk's DPR. Eventually he's have Flaming/Corrosive/Shocking/Frost. Admittedly - resistances mean that it won't work on everything - but pummeling should help there too.

But Sohei isn't my fav monk archetype anyway. My Drunken Master's DPR would be noticeably lower than either, even assuming an extra attack every round from his massive/recharging ki pool. Though it's respectable - and I think the infinite ki is worth the price.

OFFENSIVE STATS VS 29 AC (with extra swing from massive/recharging ki pool)
Attacks Unarmed +21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 (2d8+10, 20/2x)
Average DPR 58

Edit: Though my current Drunken Master will be a bit lower yet once he hits 12 as his level 1 Dex was only 17 due to being a Dwarf. Got him that 18 Con for Fast Drinker though - and I enjoy having disgustingly good saves vs. spells. Gonna get Steel Soul soon.

[Secret Wizard]

not gonna argue against drunken master being awesome

[Michael Sayre]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

I have to admit, the loss of archetype support for the Unchained Monk was a big turnoff for me. The core (and unchained) monks just don't interest me nearly as much as the character concepts you can pull off with archetyped monk. I liked my Sohei riding around on a T-Rex and stabbing things with a nodachi a lot more than a standard "shirtless face-puncher."

My favorite core monk archetype fix was going Sensei/Qinggong with Mantis Style and picking up Touch of Serenity when it becomes available. Sure, I don't "deal damage" but I can pretty reliably end fights in ways that are normally reserved for spellcasters.

I don't really feel like UnC Monk needed to be compatible with archetypes, since most of the monk archetypes are actually very functional with the core monk. Core monk is my archetype fodder, UnC monk is what I play when I don't want to spend a lot of time on my character or if a new player wants to be a monk.

[Atarlost]

The core monk was good at one thing: not getting puppeted while also not laboring under the paladin code of conduct. Barbarians are okay, but are vulnerable in the surprise round and don't have enough decent rage powers other than superstitious to be interesting. Against a GM that aggressively uses charms and compulsions and doesn't cater to paladins the core monk is the martial: doing a little less damage is worth it to not be doing your damage to your wizard friend.

The APG came along and zen archer and the monk became the best archer. The barbarian became worth playing, but still has that surprise round vulnerability that monks lack. Antipaladins provide an alternative to the paladin, but are even less playable at most tables.

UM brought quiggong powers which let you ditch the anti-feature of spell resistance. None of the non-paladin martials gained anything to encroach on his turf.

UC brought style feats, the maneuver master, the tetori, the sohei, and the flowing monk. Now the monk does a bunch of things well. The monk is the best mounted combatant, the best at maneuvers, and can be pretty good at being monkish as well. And they still don't get puppeted while other non-paladin martials still do.

The ACG gave us more style feats and brought out the competition for the future unmonk. And that is a good name for it because it's not going to be filling the monk's niche.

The unmonk doesn't laugh at save or puppets. He doesn't fight like a sohei. He doesn't grapple like a tetori. And most damning of all he doesn't out-fight the brawler. He doesn't really out-save a brawler either. Any stat spread the unmonk can live with the brawler can do better with. The unmonk hits slightly better but the brawler has options and is leagues ahead at combat maneuvers. The unmonk may need wisdom more, but he doesn't need strength, dex, and con less.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Atarlost wrote:

The APG came along and zen archer and the monk became the best archer.

Debatable. I'd put them in the top 3 with fighters & rangers. Zen get mobility (sort of) more attacks and saves. Rangers get spellcasting to buff their archery. Fighters get the most static damage, and by 6 I'd give them the edge on unbuffed DPR.

Atarlost wrote:

He [Umonk] doesn't fight like a sohei.

He does a better STR build. Much better at low levels.

[Imbicatus]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

The APG came along and zen archer and the monk became the best archer.

Debatable. I'd put them in the top 3 with fighters & rangers. Zen get mobility (sort of) more attacks and saves. Rangers get spellcasting to buff their archery. Fighters get the most static damage, and by 6 I'd give them the edge on unbuffed DPR.

Fighters get the most static damage, but their delayed access to vital archery feats like IPS make them lackluster, especially when ranger can make up the difference in static bonuses with instant enemy, and can have IPS 5 levels sooner than the fighter.

ZAMs are nice because they get even more bonus feats than the fighter/ranger, and they can do other things than just shoot arrows. But for pure DPR, they fall a little behind at higher levels.

[Secret Wizard]

Quote:

The unmonk doesn't laugh at save or puppets. He doesn't fight like a sohei. He doesn't grapple like a tetori. And most damning of all he doesn't out-fight the brawler. He doesn't really out-save a brawler either. Any stat spread the unmonk can live with the brawler can do better with. The unmonk hits slightly better but the brawler has options and is leagues ahead at combat maneuvers. The unmonk may need wisdom more, but he doesn't need strength, dex, and con less.

1. UnMonk saves against puppets. It needs low feats, so you can pick up Iron Will and Spiritual Balance. It also can forgo DEX for WIS, so you are mostly as good at saving against puppets as a 16 WIS Wizard.

Spiritual Balance also allows you to roll twice for the save for possession effects, so you can lol at them.

2. UnMonk outdamages the Sohei if the Sohei builds for unarmed. UnMonk outmaneuvers the Sohei if the Sohei builds for Fauchard use. Sohei picks damage or pounce. UnMonk gets both.

3. UnMonk can't outgrapple a Tetori. If it could, as a generalist base class, it would be OP.

4. Everything you said about Brawlers is wrong.

a. Brawlers need Pummeling Style. UnMonks can use Dragon Style for pounce. There's no mathematical way in which a Brawler could defeat an UnMonk. Not to mention an UnMonk Spinning Kick will always destroy a Brawler, whereas a Brawler cannot outfeint an UnMonk's Wisdom. There's no way the Brawler could defeat an UnMonk.

b. Brawlers don't have Evasion, so they need higher CON. Brawlers ideally build, at creation: 18/15/14/10/12/7, and just try to make up for lower WIS with feats and stuff. UnMonks build: 18/12/14/10/15/7, which does give them lower Reflex but much higher Wisdom saves once they put the 4th level +1 on WIS. This also allows them to qualify for Dragon Style and stuff.

c. Brawler CANNOT trip as well as the UnMonk. Ki Throw allows you to throw bigger creatures than you ever dreamed off with the Brawler. The whole Ki Throw line allows to do stuff the Brawler cannot do.
In terms of other maneuvers, yes, the Brawler is better. But the UnMonk hits harder. Different strokes. UnMonk does better picking the Improved Feats for each maneuver and peppering their aggressive combat style with them. Brawler does better disabling enemies and then attacking them. Brawler need to disable to deal good damage. UnMonk can deal good damage and can disable when it needs. Two distinct classes, though similar.

d. The UnMonk needs DEX much less. Actually, the UnMonk doesn't need DEX at all. The only reason why an UnMonk would boost it is simply because it's cheap. But Wisdom is better in every aspect, other than Reflex saves (yawn) and Initiative checks (an actual concern). Brawler needs DEX to Acrobatics, Monk gets easy-access Mobility, teleportation and High Jump if they so wanted.

[Chengar Qordath]

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

He [Umonk] doesn't fight like a sohei.

He does a better STR build. Much better at low levels.

I'd think that low levels are when the Sohei's ability to wear armor gives a STR build the most benefit.

[Secret Wizard]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

He [Umonk] doesn't fight like a sohei.

He does a better STR build. Much better at low levels.

I'd think that low levels are when the Sohei's ability to wear armor gives a STR build the most benefit.

Running numbers, STR and DEX are very even for Sohei, with DEX having the AC while STR has the damage. Fauchard STR is better at damage than both and has amazing reach, but no Pummeling Charge.

[Charon's Little Helper]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

He [Umonk] doesn't fight like a sohei.

He does a better STR build. Much better at low levels.

I'd think that low levels are when the Sohei's ability to wear armor gives a STR build the most benefit.

The Sohei has no advantage over any other build for DPR until level 6 (behind at 4-5 if going unarmed), and not much until 8-9ish when he can afford Gloves of Dueling. And armor isn't really very useful for a monk's AC - maybe for a session or two. Just get Mage Armor (a wand of which should be your first purchase - just hand it to a wizard buddy) and you're at higher AC than a chain shirt even if you only have a 12 Wis.

The only time I'd use armor with a Sohei is if the Sohei level was just a dip for something else. (Admittedly - it's a very solid 1-2 dip class.)

[BadBird]

Well, Mage Armor often won't hold up well against an enhanced mithril breastplate with higher DEX. But if very high wisdom is affordable for a particular build it's eventually superior, since you get bonus ac and can use a mental ability item.

For a really strange and amusing Monk, take a Sohei with one level of Dual Cursed Lore Oracle and build up your ac by dumping DEX and ignoring WIS to pump up CHA in a mithril breastplate. Take Quick Draw to pick up a quickdraw light Shield. You now have a two-handed sword-and-shield Monk with stacked strength and charisma and the ability to take Misfortune.

[The_Mad_Monarch]

I actually think a Dex/Wis focus UnMonk keeping STR at a 10 could still prove to output some good damage. Not as much as a STR focus, but here me out.

Weapon Finess for unarmed rolls, obviously. You'll be a bit behind on Damage the first few levels, but you do get additional attacks at nice bonus's, plus a nicer AC to keep yourself alive early game. (STR isn't a dump stat, but no longer needs to be a focus.)

Come 6th level? Elemental Fury from your Ki powers is fantastic. 1 Ki to apply that damage to all your attacks for 1/2 your monk level in rounds? Fantastic.

And considering it's now easier to get Elemental Fist due to having a full base Attack (9th level, since I don't think there is a way to grab it at 8th, and 8 is the requirement), I see nothing stopping you from piling on more elemental damage with that. (And making it easier to grab an elemental Style to boot.)

Now you can still do this with a Strength Build and likely output more damage, but it is a way to help compensate that difference in a good way to keep your defenses up.

Edit: Also, you'd basically be throwing a feet away doing this (Unless your DM is nice since you get Evasion anyway), but if yo do Variant Multiclassing with Rogue, you get Sneak Attack, though a weaker version, come seventh level.

Elemental Fury + Elemental Fist + Monks Unarmed + Weakened Sneak once per round starting 8th level seems pretty neat. (Spin Kick to catch your enemy flat footed)

Edit2: And with a foucs on Wisdom, better Trapfinding then with a Rogue. :p

[Imbicatus]

It's not worth it for a pure unchained monk to go dex based IMO, although it's great for a UnMonk/UnRogue Multiclass.

Elemental Fury is just not available enough to rely on as your primary damage enhancer. Elemental Fist sucks unless you go dragon style, which encourages you to be STR based.

Slashing Grace is shut down because you can't use flurry of blows with it.

Dervish Dance or Fencing Grace work if you take a level of cleric to get crusaders flurry, but it's a lot of work and isn't very monklike.

Agile works AoMF works, as well, but it's going to be behind a STR build in damage.

[The_Mad_Monarch]

Depending on how you build, you may actually have enough Ki to use Fury regularly.

Elemental Fist is Definitely better with Dragon Style, and I wish there was another way Right now to get the Scaling Elemental Fist in place of Stunning Fist (My Groups have always been alright with switching out Stunning, Elemental, Punishment Kick, ect for each other, but I don't' think that's really core. :p), but I still wouldn't say it sucks. It's just not optimal.

Mind you, at no point here am I suggesting a Dex/Wis Focus is going to overcome the STR, I just think it's definitely a viable option in the case of the UnMonk (Definitely more so then before due to the Full Base Attack and Flurry Changes).

[Charon's Little Helper]

BadBird wrote:

Well, Mage Armor often won't hold up well against an enhanced mithril breastplate with higher DEX. But if very high wisdom is affordable for a particular build it's eventually superior, since you get bonus ac and can use a mental ability item.

As long as you start with a 14 Wis or better (not difficult) - you'll always have a better AC going unarmored after you get access to Mage Armor. (Dex to AC will be the same for both on a STR build before high levels - so moot for this comparison.)

Say you could afford the mithril breastplate at 4. (pretty early) By 4 an unarmored monk will have +3 by being unarmored. 2 Wis & 1 level. That combined with Mage Armor will by 7 vs the breastplate's 6.

The armored Sohei will be able to magically enhance their armor, while unarmored's armor won't improve until bracers +5, but he'll continue to gain a point every 4 levels, and he can grab a headband of Wisdom to boost it further.

Once you get to the point where you can afford bracers +5, it's not even a close comparison anymore.

And that doesn't count that the Sohei burned a trait to be able to wear the mithril breastplate.