I have been searching for a Pathfinder update to the Psychic's Handbook released by Green Ronin, but have had little results. If anyone knows anywhere I can find a update to the book I would appreciate it.
Alternatively, if no updated rules already exist, would anybody care to help in making some? I don't think the project would be too much of an undertaking so I don't mind doing it myself; but I'd love to save the time and energy if a update already exists.
There is none to date.
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I have been searching for a Pathfinder update to the Psychic's Handbook released by Green Ronin, but have had little results. If anyone knows anywhere I can find a update to the book I would appreciate it.Alternatively, if no updated rules already exist, would anybody care to help in making some? I don't think the project would be too much of an undertaking so I don't mind doing it myself; but I'd love to save the time and energy if a update already exists.
See Occult Adventures.
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I don't think Occult Adventures portrays Psionics the same way as the various Psionics Handbooks did. Like, at all. I could be mistaken though, since I haven't actually read the Occult Adventures book yet.
I have the original Complete Psionics Handbook for AD&D 2nd Edition, and in that book, Psionics functions in a completely different manner from Magic in almost every possible way. When I look at the Occult Adventures classes in Hero Lab, they look like glorified wizards.
Again though, that is just Hero Lab, and I haven't actually read OA yet.
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The OP is specifically talking about the Psychic's Handbook which was a Green Ronin book that took the Force System from the old d20 Star Wars RPG and ported it to D&D rules. It was a nifty system that utilized skill ranks to determine power but ultimately felt un-fun because using your psychic skills caused strain which was non-lethal damage that didn't heal until you rested.
I really liked the system, but the limitors in place weren't super great.
I am 100% sure no one in our group would have used "unfun" as a descriptor for Psychic's handbook. Especially considering it was one of the only books we had several copies of.
If anything, in a fanstasy setting like the core setting that has readily available healing through magic items and multiple other means, it was rather easily abused. Never mind the fact that PFRPG gives away more feats and skill points than 3.5 so it would be significantly stronger than it was.
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You're right that was dismissive, it was a cool idea. Using skills to gain a small but flexible group of powers, telekinesis was limited only by imagination.
I had a halfling psychic who I quite enjoyed. But without strain as a limiter, I broke the game quite a bit. I'm pretty pleased I can recreate him very well with a kineticist from Occult Adventures.
If I were to recreate the system, I'd probably make about 6 skill groups (Kinesis, Metabolism, Psychoportation, Mentalism, Metacreation, ESP), and treat the various abilities as feats or skill tricks allowing you to apply that skill in different ways, I'd steal psionic focus as a concept too.
So while psionically focused you could use Mentalism to communicate your emotions within 100 feet, you could expend psionic focus and a foe needs to make a will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 Ranks + Cha Mod) or be affected by love (charm) fear, disgust (command: drop), anger (rage), sadness (remorse) pain (nonlethal damage) or joy (morale bonus)
At 5 ranks you can communicate telepathically while focused and by expanding focus can project suggestions, mind-affecting invisibility etc
Or something like that. I'd make strain work like occult adventures burn, you can't heal it until you get 8 hours rest.
Wow, glad to receive all the feedback! Honestly wasn't expecting this many responses right off the back:
1.) In regards to strain- I personally loved the concept and and the kineticist proves that taking strain/burn is viable way of balancing a class (at least in Paizo's eyes). That said let's get some opinions:
-Should the psychic skills use strain? Should it work exactly like the Kineticist's burn if so?
-If not are there other options to consider; power points, fatigue strain, ect.?
2.) Of the many things I was looking for help with I didn't expect any suggestions on the psychic skills themselves. In fact besides changing the wording on a few I planned to leave those as they mostly were. But Dudemeister's idea of making the powers skill unlocks has merit to it.
-Should the various psychic skills be condensed into six large groups? And if so should you gain more varied use from them with either feats, skill unlocks, or a mix of both?
Personally I like all the separated powers but I do think organizing them into new feats, like the six groups listed above is a great idea, so that you have no oddball powers that require their own feats: like mind-blade for example.
3.) The big question I have been facing is how to update the psychic class itself (and to a much lesser extent the prestige classes). While never getting to run the class myself, I heard it had some balance issues, primarily people having no reason to do anything else but dip one level into it to get all the psychic skills as class skills and thus avoid heavy feat costs.
-Should the psychic base class keep all of the psychic skills as class skills or have the gain them like everyone else (with more chances to get them, obviously)? And how many skill ranks should they earn each level, 6+Int? 8+Int?
-Besides psychic bonus feats, should the psychic gain other class features? Like psychic tricks or such?
-Finally, should there even be a psychic base class? Would it work better as a archetype or alternate to an existing class? And the prestige classes: should they be phased out, updated, made into archetypes for a base psychic class, or archetypes for other classes?
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I don't think Occult Adventures portrays Psionics the same way as the various Psionics Handbooks did. Like, at all. I could be mistaken though, since I haven't actually read the Occult Adventures book yet.
I have the original Complete Psionics Handbook for AD&D 2nd Edition, and in that book, Psionics functions in a completely different manner from Magic in almost every possible way. When I look at the Occult Adventures classes in Hero Lab, they look like glorified wizards.
Again though, that is just Hero Lab, and I haven't actually read OA yet.
The material you're looking for is most like Dragonscarred Press's work on the subject. There's even Herolab support for it.
Occult Adventures is not, and never has been advertised, to be a replacement for 3.5 Psionics. The Dragonscarred folks already have that ship locked up, and they did a bangup job on it as well.
The discussion is actually about This Book
Which was closer to a fantasy equivalent to the Star Wars RPG Force Powers than it was any approximation of psionics.
The Occult Adventures stuff has a closer tone, feel and a few mechanical similarities to Green Ronin's Psychic.
The GR Psychic had powers based on skills and feats rather than spells or power points.
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Back to the topic at hand.
The Psychic class should have a pool of points that it can draw from before taking Non-Lethal Damage, which would give players a reason to take the class beyond a dip.
Say 4 + Con /level. It means that you don't take damage right away and a dedicated psychic can build up a phrenic pool that lets them cut loose before they start taking non-lethal damage due to strain.
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That's what specializations to reduce burn, and the gather energy maneuver are for. The class does not need any power ups.Back to the topic at hand.
The Psychic class should have a pool of points that it can draw from before taking Non-Lethal Damage, which would give players a reason to take the class beyond a dip.
Say 4 + Con /level. It means that you don't take damage right away and a dedicated psychic can build up a phrenic pool that lets them cut loose before they start taking non-lethal damage due to strain.
Again, the discussion is about updating the skill based green ronin psychic to Pathfinder. Psionics and Occultism need not apply. :-/
Back to the topic at hand.
The Psychic class should have a pool of points that it can draw from before taking Non-Lethal Damage, which would give players a reason to take the class beyond a dip.
Say 4 + Con /level. It means that you don't take damage right away and a dedicated psychic can build up a phrenic pool that lets them cut loose before they start taking non-lethal damage due to strain.
I think this idea is great and adds an element to make people want to play the Psychic for more than a level dip. Also encourages the Psychic to be a bit more liberal with their abilities without having to worry about weakening them in the field. That said 4+Con each level adds up quick and most strain is pretty minor or can be maintained after taking burn once. Alternative ideas:
-This excess strain pool gets 4+Con at level one, +2 more at each level beyond first.
-Get 4+Con at level one, again at 3rd level, and at each odd level after 3rd.
-Psychic's roll 1d6 each level, plus Con, to determine their excess strain pool.
Check this out:
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Perhaps an ability similar to how a Bard can use Perform in place of other skills. A Psychic who can use Telepathy instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive, or Telekinesis instead of Sleight of Hand or Disable Device might add some further utility to the Psychic.
The other thing to consider is that the original Psychic worked out its difficulty class via the following math:
10 + 1/2 ranks in skill + Relevant ability score mod.
Which at level 1 worked out roughly to 12 + Relevant ability mod, and if you were using point buy meant your different skills would have different DCs.
I think PF version should still use the same math, even though your ranks will be lower, because it still roughly equates to what you find with most class features (such as witch hexes or channeling or wizard school abilities).
10 + 1/2 Ranks + Relevant skill ability mod.
So saving against a psychic with 1 rank in telekinesis would be DC 10 + 0 (1/2 ranks) + Int Mod (So 13 or 14 for an Int Focused Psychic). Means there's a slight lag in DCs behind other classes, but on the other hand all of your powers will be equivalent to the highest level spells so it's a fine trade off in my book.
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Additionally, the feat "Psychic Ability" was just a feat tax, it doesn't do anything other than let you take another Psychic Feat, which even in the feat rich environment of Pathfinder still means you don't actually get anything for that level.
I would have the feat read:
Psychic Ability, Telepathy (Psychic)
You have the potential to learn the telepathy skill.
Prerequisite: Charisma 11+
Benefit: You can learn the telepathy skill. You gain the Sense Minds Unlock.
Normal: Characters without this feat can not learn the telepathy skill.
Unlock Psychic Ability (Psychic)
You have unlocked further abilities within your skill.
Prerequisite: Psychic Ability
Benefit: You gain another Telepathy Unlock, you gain additional uses for your telepathy skill based on the unlock.
Perhaps an ability similar to how a Bard can use Perform in place of other skills. A Psychic who can use Telepathy instead of Diplomacy or Sense Motive, or Telekinesis instead of Sleight of Hand or Disable Device might add some further utility to the Psychic.
The other thing to consider is that the original Psychic worked out its difficulty class via the following math:
10 + 1/2 ranks in skill + Relevant ability score mod.
Which at level 1 worked out roughly to 12 + Relevant ability mod, and if you were using point buy meant your different skills would have different DCs.
I think PF version should still use the same math, even though your ranks will be lower, because it still roughly equates to what you find with most class features (such as witch hexes or channeling or wizard school abilities).
10 + 1/2 Ranks + Relevant skill ability mod.
So saving against a psychic with 1 rank in telekinesis would be DC 10 + 0 (1/2 ranks) + Int Mod (So 13 or 14 for an Int Focused Psychic). Means there's a slight lag in DCs behind other classes, but on the other hand all of your powers will be equivalent to the highest level spells so it's a fine trade off in my book.
...can Bards do that? I feel like that's an oversight on my part.
Anyway, that was the formula I wanted to keep for the skill DCs, no worries. As for the using skills in place of others- doesn't that exist to some degree with the skills? I know at least Psychic Shielding could replace Will saves against compulsions and mind-effecting things; right, or am I remembering that wrong?
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Only against other psychic skills.
Honestly a skill check is usually going to be much higher than a save bonus so that's not really something you want to keep around.
I would remove Psychic Shield as a skill, and make it a Mastery or a Psychic feat.
Something like
Psychic Shield
Your mental barriers are powerful enough to withstand powerful mental attacks.
Prerequisite: Psychic Ability
Benefit: When you fail a Will Save you may immediately take an amount of non-lethal damage or Strain equal to the Caster Level of the ability (or skill ranks in the case of a psychic ability). If you do so, you may ignore any other effects of the ability.
Only against other psychic skills.
Honestly a skill check is usually going to be much higher than a save bonus so that's not really something you want to keep around.
I would remove Psychic Shield as a skill, and make it a Mastery or a Psychic feat.
Something like
Psychic Shield
Your mental barriers are powerful enough to withstand powerful mental attacks.
Prerequisite: Psychic Ability
Benefit: When you fail a Will Save you may immediately take an amount of non-lethal damage or Strain equal to the Caster Level of the ability (or skill ranks in the case of a psychic ability). If you do so, you may ignore any other effects of the ability.
While I will admit that is true regarding normal saves, I always liked the idea of Psychic Shield being a roll off against other psychic skills [pskills]; it seemed like a nice little extra barrier against mentle attacks. Still, let's include it as a mastery and see how others like it- can't hurt at all.
You have V.P.A as a choice as early as 2nd level. However with the class's current progression you don't select your first Psychic Mastery until 4th level- either V.P.A. needs to change or the class's progression has to.
Edit: Also, I have it set so you can edit the document yourself. Wasn't sure if you knew that or not.
Whoops, that's my bad, I misread the table and thought you got a mastery at 2nd, like a rogue talent.
4th and every 6 levels thereafter is better, it means you can get 3 over the course of a career, and you don't step too heavily on the Bard's toes with the similar ability.
Not a problem; glad you like the setup.
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Added Psychic Bulwark and Psychic Stiletto masteries to more closely mimic how Psychic Shield used to work.
Still means no Psychic Shield skill, but means that if you try to TK a Telekinetic it's an opposed check before they make the save. Psychic stiletto means that you're better at busting up Psychic bulwarks.
Alright, we need to decide on a capstone for the Psychic class and also decide how we are going to handle psykills; I know you want squeeze them into six broad ones- how would they work in your mind with skill unlocks?
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Each of the 6 skills should have a base use, and then every Odd level a new use gets selected.
I don't have my Psychic's handbook in front of me.
But at level 1 a telepath might get Mind Touch, and then at 3rd they might choose between Suggestion, Sleep, Mind Reading etc.
It means non-Psychic characters might take the base ability in a psychic skill or two, but a Psychic gets to be both broader and deeper.
I might not be explaining myself well, but if I get time tonight I might post up some notes.
Looking forward to your more in depth input but I think I hear where you are coming from; still looking forward to it.
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Telepathy (Cha)
You can use this skill to read, influence and communicate with other minds. All uses of this skill have the [mind-effecting] descriptor.
Base Skill: Sense Minds
You can determine the presence and location of other minds.
Check:
You can make a DC 15 Telepathy Check, to sense the presence of any creature with an Intelligence score within 30 ft. of you. For every 5 points that you beat this DC you increase your sensing radius by a factor of 10, you may always choose a lower factor.
Sense Minds
DC - Radius
15 - 30 ft.
20 - 300 ft.
25 - 3000 ft.
30 - 30,000 ft.
35 - 300,000 ft.
40 - 3,000,000 ft.
With a successful check, you sense the presence of other minds, their approximate number, their general type (animal, humanoid etc.), and their approximate location.
The larger the number of minds present, the more general the information tends to be. Any creature immune to mind-effecting abilities, and those who are under the effects of a Psychic Bulwark, or similar effect that prevents mind reading or divination effects does not appear. You can also attempt a Sense Minds check on a place you can see, such as a building (or ship or even planet in space) with the same effects as above.
Special: You can take a 10 or 20 on a Sense Minds check.
Strain: 0 +1 per 5 DC past 15 beaten.
Telepathy Unlocks
Every three levels a Psychic may select another use for this skill from the below list (see Psychic's handbook or later additions for descriptions of what these do).
All saves are based on 10 + 1/2 Telepathy Ranks + Charisma bonus + Misc.
Domination
You mentally control another's actions. (Prerequisite: Suggestion. 8 Ranks in Telepathy)
Drain Emotion
You can drain intense emotion calming those around you.
Dreamwalk
You can enter another's dreams.
Empathic Projection
You can impose emotional states on others.
Empathy
You can sense the emotional states of others. [/b]
Illusion
You can fool the senses of other creatures, creating illusions.
Invisibility
You can become invisible to creatures that can be affected by Mind Effecting abilities. (Pre-Requisite: Illusion)
Mental Contact
You can make Telepathic Contact with another Mind.
Mind Reading
You can read information from another creature's mind.
Mindswitch
You exchange minds with another creature.
Psychic Blast
You can psychically assault another's mind.
Psychic Static
You create interference for other psychic abilities.
Psychic Surgery
Psychic Surgery allows you to remove other psychic influences or to alter memories and behavior.
Sleep
You can psychically put other creatures to sleep.
Suggestion
You can implant suggestions into the minds of others.
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All righty, it has been awhile but a few things:
1.) The Psychic has been updated so it actually has a capstone now, gets Wild Talent at first level, and some wording has been updated. Specifically I am working on updating the actual Psychic Skill feats and I have decided to actually name them directly after the seven disciplines of psionic powers, as given to us by the brilliant Dreamscarred Press. This I credit as Dudemeister's idea as it I feel it's what he had in mind. I'm sure he can confirm for us at any rate.
Either way, this means we have two new psychic skills to stat up: Metacreativity- creating solid, mental constructs- and Athanatism- manipulating the dead with psychic powers.
So with those two we have:
-Psychokinesis, Psychoportation, Metacreativity [Int]
-Clairvoyance, Psychometabolism [Wis]
-Telepathy, Athanatism [Cha]
This setup seem okay with everyone?
2.) So part of the delay is that I have been trying out this update first hand in playtest. In one I am GMing while a player roles a straight Psychic (level 7, Psychokinesis and Psychportation) ) and then I am playing in a Skulls and Shackles game with a Tactician (level 5, Psychokinesis and Telepathy [with feats]).
Both of us are enjoying the rules but we are both finding it like we are not getting the most out of our feats as they are. Despite the Psychic getting a new use of their ability every three levels, and me getting mine through the Skill Unlock feat (Telepathy), we both don't get to commit to encounters with our psychic skills. For me it isn't that terrible as I still have class features to fall back on. However my player's class features are, essentially, these psychic skills and it seems wrong he impacts so little. So I have two solutions to propose to fix this:
A.) Psychic skills can have further abilities bought like the skill tricks from 3.5, with skill ranks and the purchase value being equal to half of your current abilities with a skill rounded up.
Example: You have the Telepathy Skill feat and can use Sense Minds and Illusion with it. This gives you 2 abilities with Telepathy and now you want to be able to use Dreamwalk. Having just leveled you have 7 skill points to distribute but you can opt to spend one of those ranks, not distribute it, and unlock a further ability with Telepathy, Dreamwalk in this example.
B.) Every two ranks in a psychic skill rank grants you another ability of said skill.
Thoughts, ideas, or solutions?
Just an idea but what about Psychic Flexibility, similar to a Brawler where a Psychic can access any Psychic feat they qualify for, for one minute.
Or perhaps they can do so any time at the cost of some strain?
I like the thought of it; you mean as a Psychic Mastery, correct?
Also, any thoughts on how to best handle awakening more uses with psychic talents.
Hmm, gotcha. I will need to try those options out, see what works.
Any imput on updating and creating new things for the psykills? I feel like the psychic is good for now. We need to progress.