So, in the core rulebook, Clerics can dedicate themselves to an ideal rather than a God. Let's then, say that an ideal we can dedicate a cleric to is the idea that there are no such things as gods (just very powerful celestials/fiends). How would one build such a cleric? What domains and such would one use?
This can, of course, apply to any divine class that can dedicate themselves to an idea like Inquisitors and Warpriests. Also, such characters wouldn't work in settings like Forgotten Realms or Golarion, where God worship is mandatory.
Actually 3.5 had a prestige class hayvwas literally a Athiest Cleric. I believe it was in Book of Vile Darkness.
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i've played various atheist characters (including clerics) since AD&D (home games mostly). I roleplay it as my character believes gods are just very high level magic users and/or powerful outsiders. So I still pick a patron or theme to have some coherence in picking domains and alignment. The feeling changes from worshiping a deity, to asking an older brother for a favor.
I'd suggest looking through the various other classes that have "themes" e.g. Witch Patrons, Oracle Mysteries, Sorcerer bloodlines, etc., choosing one of them and picking domains based upon that.
Why i like changing the word Cleric to psychic.
Even the positive and negative forces, work well with psychic idea.
a few spell name changes: miracle changed to Alter Reality.
anyway, how i like to run a godless campaign.
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A Cleric of Atheism doesn't make any sense. Atheism isn't a belief or an ideal. Atheism is literally defined by what you are NOT, rather than what you are.
It's like saying "I'm a Cleric devoted to the ideal of not being a dog. I believe very strongly that I'm not a dog.".
And even if you say that the beings other people call deities are merely powerful outsiders, you are simply moving the goal posts. Other people accept that they are "gods" whatever that means.
In the strictest since, it means only that you grant domains and spells to your followers, and that your are functionally immortal (cannot die from age or disease).
In any setting where gods exists tangibly it simply doesn't make sense to be an atheist. In Golarion there is a group of atheist, but it's really a misnomer. They're more like a group of misotheist, meaning they hate gods. Or dystheist, which believe the entities called gods are not worthy of worship.
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Ur-priest is the Athiest Priest
They do not believe that gods are true diefic beings. They more or less see them as just very powerful outsiders but nothing more. They can actually cast magic by stealing it from the Dieties. It is a VERY cool and flavorful class.
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A Cleric of Atheism doesn't make any sense. Atheism isn't a belief or an ideal. Atheism is literally defined by what you are NOT, rather than what you are.
It's like saying "I'm a Cleric devoted to the ideal of not being a dog. I believe very strongly that I'm not a dog.".
Agreed. That said, I think you could put together a coherent religion that is atheisic (or misotheistic, or dystheistic).
In the real world, for example, Buddhism is theoretically atheist in its theology, though mixing with local traditions has resulted in some deity-worship among many Buddhists. In Golarion you might see an Iroran sect decide that as Irori ascended to godhood, so are all gods merely ascended mortals, and that mortals should seek to emulate rather than worship them. This sect would probably have a similar set of domains to Irori himself (Healing, Knowledge, Rune, Strength - perhaps add the Purity subdomain).
There are also branches of atheistic satanism that see satan as a literary figure representing individuality and rebellion against theocracy. A similar PF religion might believe that mortal will is superior to - and perhaps empowers - the gods, and its domains would include Knowledge and Liberation, and perhaps also Chaos, Rune, and Magic.
Consider that demons run around doing their CE stuff and people summon angels, and that practically every cleric is empirical evidence that divine power exists, an atheist cleric would very likely effectively be some commoner living in supreme denial.
Well, outsiders existing =! gods existing. Outsiders existing just means different planes of existence exist and there are beings made from those planes.
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With the serial numbers filed off, Razmiran Priest Sorcerers would be a good fit for this. Instead of blindly devoted adherents of a false god, make them Ur-Priests, capable of hacking divine magic scrolls with their talents.
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So, in the core rulebook, Clerics can dedicate themselves to an ideal rather than a God. Let's then, say that an ideal we can dedicate a cleric to is the idea that there are no such things as gods (just very powerful celestials/fiends). How would one build such a cleric? What domains and such would one use?
This can, of course, apply to any divine class that can dedicate themselves to an idea like Inquisitors and Warpriests. Also, such characters wouldn't work in settings like Forgotten Realms or Golarion, where God worship is mandatory.
That's about as contradiction in terms as you can get. To be a divine caster you have to have SOMETHING to believe in to ground your faith. Without faith, you can't be a conduit for divine power.
"That's what the so-called Gods want you to think. They say that we must kiss the ground on which they walk and not question ideas they have that could be wrong. True divinity is unshackling yourself from these dictators and embracing the power of creation that flows through the cosmos. It is knowing that they have all lied to you. And finally, it is in the conviction that once you have rejected their false promises of salvation, you yourself will be saved." - Brother Ides, former priest
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I'm pretty sure the divine spell-casting class you're looking for is the Oracle.
Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.
Role: Oracles do not usually associate with any one church or temple, instead preferring to strike out on their own, or with a small group of like-minded individuals. Oracles typically use their spells and revelations to further their understanding of their mystery, be it through fighting mighty battles or tending to the poor and sick.
Just write your back-story such that your character thinks of themselves as being cursed and manipulated by these powerful beings, and not buying into their divinity.
An atheistic Cleric doesn't work in my view but yes, the argument could be made that atheism itself counts as a "divine concept worthy of devotion". I'm not interested in that argument because I think it's contradictory but the CRB specifically advises you to work with your GM to go down that path. So… ask your GM. =]
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Has everyone forgotten the Ur-priest... literally an athiest cleric lol
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Play an Oracle if you want a Divine character that doesnt have to worship any God.
Atheism = sincere believe there are no Gods. Atheism in Pathfinder is a gross delusion, like if someone had the sincere believe in the Easterbunny here.
This is different from "Supremly powerful beings exist, can grant the power to do miracles, but are not worthy of worship."
Has everyone forgotten the Ur-priest... literally an athiest cleric lol
That doesn't exist in Pathfinder. Yes, 3.5 is mostly compatible, but you need the GM to approve, and should probably clear it with the other players as well.
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Atheism = sincere believe there are no Gods.
It always baffles me why people thing atheism is a belief in anything.
It's a contradiction in terms. "I don't believe in X" is not equivalent to "I believe in not X".
I don't "believe there is not" I simply "don't believe".
Play an Oracle if you want a Divine character that doesnt have to worship any God.
Atheism = sincere believe there are no Gods. Atheism in Pathfinder is a gross delusion, like if someone had the sincere believe in the Easterbunny here.
This is different from "Supremly powerful beings exist, can grant the power to do miracles, but are not worthy of worship."
The Ur-priest does not believe in gods... To the Ur-priest, dieties are nothing more than just strong outsiders. Nothing more. Not all powerful entities and such. The fact that demon princes and such can actually grant spells as well leads a bit of credemce to the idea. It is very similiar to the Old Gods in Dragon Age. The Tevinter Old Gods are essentially powerfu dragons, but they were believed to be divine. Does not make them gods though....
The Ur-priest does not believe in gods... To the Ur-priest, dieties are nothing more than just strong outsiders. Nothing more. Not all powerful entities and such. The fact that demon princes and such can actually grant spells as well leads a bit of credemce to the idea. It is very similiar to the Old Gods in Dragon Age. The Tevinter Old Gods are essentially powerfu dragons, but they were believed to be divine. Does not make them gods though....Play an Oracle if you want a Divine character that doesnt have to worship any God.
Atheism = sincere believe there are no Gods. Atheism in Pathfinder is a gross delusion, like if someone had the sincere believe in the Easterbunny here.
This is different from "Supremly powerful beings exist, can grant the power to do miracles, but are not worthy of worship."
and that's why I worship Kossuth.
I think D&D and Pathfinder define "atheism" as rejecting the gods rather than disbelieving in them. So by that definition, I don't know if you could have a staunchly atheist cleric. But you could align yourself to an ideal and tell people you don't concern yourself with the politics of the gods.
This kind of reminds me of something from the Forgotten Realms books. There was a family of arcane-hating Clerics who would capture suspected Wizards and Sorcerers and burn them at the stake. They worshipped a being they called "Entropy" which was actually just a floating Sphere of Annihilation they build their house around. But they were all clerics and could cast spells, so where did their power come from? Well it turns out their prayers and worship were being hijacked by Tiamat. She was giving them spells on behalf of their "false god".
I really like that explanation for where spells come from for weird clerics
The Ur-priest does not believe in gods... To the Ur-priest, dieties are nothing more than just strong outsiders. Nothing more. Not all powerful entities and such. The fact that demon princes and such can actually grant spells as well leads a bit of credemce to the idea. It is very similiar to the Old Gods in Dragon Age. The Tevinter Old Gods are essentially powerfu dragons, but they were believed to be divine. Does not make them gods though....Play an Oracle if you want a Divine character that doesnt have to worship any God.
Atheism = sincere believe there are no Gods. Atheism in Pathfinder is a gross delusion, like if someone had the sincere believe in the Easterbunny here.
This is different from "Supremly powerful beings exist, can grant the power to do miracles, but are not worthy of worship."
Actually the Ur-priest does believe in them they just hate them and steal some power from them.
I also agree with what Rynjin has said in this thread.
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The root of Atheism is Atheos, literally godlessness. So, Atheism is the belief in godlessness, and, thus, a belief. Agnosticism would be a lack of belief.A Cleric of Atheism doesn't make any sense. Atheism isn't a belief or an ideal. Atheism is literally defined by what you are NOT, rather than what you are.
It's like saying "I'm a Cleric devoted to the ideal of not being a dog. I believe very strongly that I'm not a dog.".
Roots are useful tools, but they are not the whole word, and definitely not the whole meaning.
Agnosticism is NOT, precisely speaking, a lack of belief. It is the stance that the answer is unknowable. There is no real, solid evidence for or against the existence of deities, is the main core of agnosticism.
Atheism is much simpler. "I don't believe". If you want something more concrete, these are the actual definitions:
Agnostic: "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."
Atheist: "a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods."
Agnosticism would be a lack of belief.
Gnosticism and Agnosticism have to do with what you know they have nothing to do with belief
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Pathfinder had Gods but they have atheists. There's an entire country that recognizes the patheons but wants nothing to do with them.
In Golarion, then, atheism is more a rejection that one should allow them to control any aspect of their lives, for good or bad.
Because clearly there ARE gods. Unlike Earth where prayer means nothing and gets you no where, Clerics has actual true Jesus powerz.
They redefine it there because it has to.
Even if your character simply states they aren't gods but higher celestial spirits... you're just changing the goalposts.
Redefined word for a redefined planet.
Except the word isn't redefined. There is already a word for the people of Rahadoum. Dystheist (or misotheist). Why reinvent the wheel when you could just as easily sub in a spare tire?
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Regardless of what atheism means or whether Golarion uses it incorrectly, it's important to consider that atheism alone is not a compelling belief system, any more than "there are lots of gods" is on its own a religion. Two complete atheistic traditions may be very different, just like Odinism is very different from Hinduism (and, as mentioned above, Buddhism is very different from atheistic satanism).
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I'm suddenly thinking of Sanja from the Dresden Files - a Knight of the Cross (as in, he's wielding a holy sword that incorporates one of the nails from the Cross) who insists that God's just an alien. Albeit an alien whose cause he agrees with and willingly fights for.
In other words, Sanja's an atheist paladin.
I can see an atheist cleric of one of the good-aligned deities. (Or even of some of the neutral (Gozreh, Pharasma, Nethys, Gorum) or evil (Urgathoa, Nocticula) deities).
Hell, I'd expect Cayden to actually agree with the assessment that he's just a guy who's more powerful than other people.
Pathfinder deities tend to fully support their heretics as long as the heretics are still within an alignment step - i.e., as long as their heart is still in the right place.
Such a cleric would view their patron as a liege of lieges rather than as a god.
It'd be a kind of goofy character, but totally doable.
Even if the beings are erroneously identified as gods, nothing stops a person from fully identifying with a sponsor and seeking to further that sponsor's cause.
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I know we like to stay away from real-world religion here, but I can't help but think, chad, that you don't actually know a lot of atheists or agnostics. So let me clarify a few things.
First, belief that there is no god does not necessarily equate to a belief that there is no such thing as a soul (see: Buddhism).
Second, some (many?) atheists believe that life is actually highly likely given conditions that remotely allow life - meaning that we are not lone freaks, but the inevitable result of the laws of nature. Try reading At Home in the Universe.
Third, not all agnostics believe that our uncertainty regarding divinity requires that divinity be uninterested in us. Before humans had any way to prove the existence of viruses, viruses still had a profound influence on human life.
Finally and most importantly, rejection of deity does not equate to rejection of moral values. You admit that believers would find it difficult to cope without the assurance that a divine being will mete out ultimate reward and punishment - and yet there are unbelievers who do perform great acts of compassion in absence of any belief that this will ultimately result in their salvation. That is laudable, wouldn't you think?
EDIT: I should point out that in the time of Jesus, most Jews would consider the Samaritans to be sinful unbelievers - herein lies the greater significance of the parable.
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A Cleric of Atheism doesn't make any sense. Atheism isn't a belief or an ideal. Atheism is literally defined by what you are NOT, rather than what you are.
It's like saying "I'm a Cleric devoted to the ideal of not being a dog. I believe very strongly that I'm not a dog.".
Dictionary definition yes, but there are plenty of atheists out there who are devout enough to turn Atheism into an ideology unto itself. You can usually identify them because they can recite the definition of a bunch of different fallacies but use them anyways without realizing it.
A Cleric who believes so strongly in the falsehood of the gods that he becomes evidence of it (due to having divine spellcasting without any connection to a god) sounds like a viable character concept to me.
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This argument is pointless, mainly because most people have no idea what atheism really is. Everybody thinks they know, but most of them have been misinformed, usually by religious people who don't have the inclination to find out - they just make assumptions and pass along their assumptions as knowledge and other people who think those assumptions come from a knowledgeable authority grab onto that misinformation and pass it along to others.
Like a snowball rolling downhill, these poor misguided assumptions turn into a widespread mass "understanding" of atheism that is completely wrong.
Ask 100 random people to define atheism, about 10-20 or so will actually consider themselves to be atheists and they'll give you 4 or 5 different definitions, but all mostly similar to each other. The other 80-90 people will be theists or agnostics and from them you'll get another 30 or 40 different definitions, many of them so wildly incorrect as to be laughable, and very few of them even remotely close to what the atheists actually said.
In short, the only way to get most people to understand what atheism truly is requires a very long and educational discussion. Posts on a forum won't get it done.
Rynjin, I feel for you. You're absolutely correct but you cannot convince anyone who isn't already convinced.
OP, what you're asking for is literally impossible.
To put it simply, theism is a belief in the existence of at least one god - nothing more, nothing less. Theism does not depend upon how many gods one believes in. Theism does not depend upon how the term ‘god’ is defined. Theism does not depend upon how one arrives at their belief. Theism does not depend upon how one defends their belief. That theism only means “belief in a god” and nothing more can be difficult to understand because we don’t normally encounter theism in isolation - instead we find theists with labels: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
However, the word "theism" by itself, stripped of all the labels, is simply the beleief in the existence of at least one god.
A "theist" is a person who holds such a belief.
So now that you know what a "theist" is, then what is an "atheist"?
To put this simply as well, when you attach the prefix "a" to a word, that prefix means "not". So "atheist" means "not theist", or more specifically, "a person who does not have a belief in at least one god."
That doesn't mean he believes in something else - "Well, I don't believe in a god so, hmmmm, let's see here, I guess I'll believe in ice cream" and it very definitely does not mean he believes there is no god.
Here's an example. If I tell you that I own a lion, do you believe me? Maybe I do, maybe I don't. Maybe I own a zoo, or maybe I'm wealthy and I bought a lion for a zoo - but it's still my lion. What if I showed you a picture of me and my lion. Do you believe me now? If you do, then you are a "lionist" (belief that DM_Blake owns a lion). If you don't believe that I own a lion, then you are an "alionist" (you lack the belief that is held by lionists). But maybe you are sure, positively sure, without a doubt in your mind, that I don't own a lion (I don't know how you can be that sure, since some people actually do own lions and you don't really know if I am one such person), but if you really are absolutely sure that I don't own a lion, then you are not an "alionist", you are an "anti-lionist" (belief that DM_Blake does not own a lion).
To sum that up:
Theist: believes in at least one god.
Atheist: Doesn't have that belief.
Anti-theist: believes there is no god.
Now that you know that, are you sure it makes sense for a divine spellcaster to CHANNEL magical powers from something in which he has no belief? Wouldn't the very first time his channeling worked be sufficiently conclusive proof that something is out there answering his channels, thereby instantly disabusing him of his lack of belief (because now he's a believer in something).
A cleric CAN choose an "idea" instead of a deity.
Examples might be "Gods are just powerful people who got powerful enough to answer prayers" or "Gods are just aliens" or "The only true god is the universe and IT answers my prayers" or "Man is god so I channel my power from the collective spirit of mankind" or some such thing.
But if you're channeling magical power, it has to come from somewhere, which makes you a "theist" regarding whatever that somewhereis. An "atheist" doesn't believe that there is such a somewhere, and loses that belief as soon as his spellcasting and channeling is provided by that somewhere.
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A Cleric of Atheism doesn't make any sense. Atheism isn't a belief or an ideal. Atheism is literally defined by what you are NOT, rather than what you are.
It's like saying "I'm a Cleric devoted to the ideal of not being a dog. I believe very strongly that I'm not a dog.".
the cleric was in fact a wolf, and thus the strong belief was genuine.
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"Man is god so I channel my power from the collective spirit of mankind"
Hell, this is basically how Aroden rolled, as I recall.
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Well... If you believe the power comes from something other than a god, then you don't have to believe in any god. As far as the character knows "divine" is faulty definition of a certain type of magic.
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I don't agree with Dawkins on much, but I do like the Dawkins scale, which holds seven positions:
1. Strong theist - this person is absolutely 100% sure there is a God. This is not an agnostic position, the person is claiming special knowledge.
2. De facto theist - this is my position on the scale, and I'd suspect that of Pascal. This person estimates the probability of there being some form of deity at much greater than 50%, but does not claim 100% certainty. It is thus an agnostic position, but the de facto theist will live their lives as though there was a god, rather than not.
3. Weak (or Leaning towards) theism - this person estimates there is a greater than 50% chance of there being a god, but not by much. It is an agnostic position with no claim of special knowledge. The person acts as though there is a god, but they are very uncertain.
4. Impartial - this person estimates there is exactly 50% chance for their to be a god or not. This likely doesn't actually exist in the populace at any point, though someone may bounce back and forth between 3 and 5 and average this over their life.
5. Weak (or Leaning towards) atheism - this person estimates there is a less than 50% chance of there being a god, but not by much. It is an agnostic position with no claim of special knowledge. The person acts as though there is no god, but they are very uncertain.
6. De facto atheism - This person estimates the probability of there being some form of deity at much less than 50%, but does not claim 100% certainty. It is thus an agnostic position, but the de facto atheist will live their lives as though there was no god, rather than so. This is, I think where Sanya (from the Dresden Files) is, and is likely where most atheists are.
7. Strong atheism - this person is absolutely 100% sure there is no God. This is not an agnostic position, the person is claiming special knowledge. There are plenty of atheists here.
Note that agnosticism/gnosticism is a claim about knowledge, not belief, as Dread Knight mentioned. Gnostics claim (or imply) special knowledge and certainty, and are associated with both 1 and 7 above. Agnostics do not make the claim of certainty, base their beliefs on estimates of probability, and can run the range from atheist to theist (2 through 6 above). In a sense, then, if we put agnosticism/gnosticism and atheism/theism on two axes (plural of axis, not axe) the above scale would form a horseshoe shape. Further, neither axis would represent moral behavior.
As to the original question, then, it seems to me that "standard" clerics would fall into the 1 category above, or at least very, very high probability levels of the 2 category. It seems reasonable to me that "atheist" clerics, who fall in the 7 category and the low, low probability levels of 6 could certainly exist. However, since their faith is literally in the absence of something, I think the only domain that really fits would be the Void domain... or perhaps simply domains important to that person particularly.