
kyrt-ryder |
A replacement for the Fighter class.
Role: Kicking ass and taking names with nothing more than her flesh and blood body and the arms and armor wielded by it.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 2d6
Starting Wealth: 5d6 gold coins pocket change, plus whatever equipment the Soldier starts with.
Base Attack Bonus: Full [1 per level]
Good Saving Throws: Fortitude, Reflex, Will
Skill Ranks per Level: 4+int
Special Note: the Soldier's profession is not one which can be entered into and then sidestepped so easily. Once this class is started, it can not be multi-classed out of only completed.
Bonus Feats: The Soldier receives a bonus combat feat at every level he takes the class. He ignores all numerical prerequisites for these feats and continues to ignore those numerical prerequisites for any feats those feats serve as prerequisites for, throughout the entirety of his life [unless he retrained away his Soldier Levels.]
Level 1: Armor Training: The soldier takes no penalties to movement speed from any armor he wears nor suffers any penalty for sleeping in armor of any weight category. Furthermore, he gains DR 1/- this DR stacks with Adamantium Armor and bonus increases by 1 at BAB + 5 and every 4 points beyond.
Lastly, Armor Check Penalty is reduced by one for every Soldier Level taken.
Level 2: Survival Training: The soldier gains a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This bonus increases by 1 at BAB + 5 and every 4 points beyond.
Level 3: Weapon Training: The soldier gains a +1 bonus to hit and damage when attacking with a weapon [including Unarmed Strikes.] This bonus increases by 1 at BAB + 5 and every 4 points beyond.
Level 4: Endurance Training: A solider of this level obtains Fast Healing 1.

Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
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Really poor design to break the class system. If you have to make a bunch of rules that limit whether or not people can take the class, that should be a sign that it's time to go back to the drawing board.
The abilities themselves are just numerical bonuses and fast healing, which makes the class broken and incredibly boring. Two very bad things to have in a class's design.

johnnythexxxiv |

Honestly, with the exception of Survival Training (which is too powerful), the class features are fine, if on the strong side. The fact that the class runs 2d6 per level is just a bad idea though. A lot of spells are hit die dependant, some of which would be beneficial to the Soldier, but his being up to 4 HD ahead of his same level allies cuts off his access to them. Likewise, your HP would be through the roof since you get to apply Con bonus to each hit die. If you want a class to have oodles of HP, go with a d12. If that still isn't enough, Rouge Genius Games created the armiger class which has all results under a 6 treated as a 6 on its health rolls. Personally, I think that is overkill when your class also provides DR and Fast Healing.
But Cyrad hit it on the nail when (s)he said that flat numerical bonuses are boring. Extra feats in and of themselves are not interesting enough to make this an interesting class, you need to include SOMETHING with at least a hint of flavor in it that expands a character's options in order to draw anyone besides powergamers to play a class, and you don't currently have that. As it stands, I would only play this if I was going to be a Fighter for the rest of my levels, any other class has actual class abilities that I wouldn't want to put on hold for just a couple of feats and numerical bonuses.

johnnythexxxiv |

Having a Hit Die expressed in multiple dice does not mean having twice as many Hit Dice.
But it does... at 4th level you'll have 8 d6 hit die. That's all any spell (and Con bonus) cares about, the number in front of the d. Nowhere in all of Pathfinder (or 3.X for that matter) has that not been the case. There is no such thing as a Hit Die expressed in multiple dice, that is something unique to your class.

kyrt-ryder |
You're inferring rules that aren't there Johnny. It's true that nothing with hit dice expressed in multiples has been printed before, but for that very reason there aren't rules stating what you're saying.
You do not have 8 d6 hit die, nor is the con bonus applied to each d6.
You have four 2d6 hit dice. It's the exact same thing as having four d12 hit dice except a bit less swingy [and .5 more HP per level, aka one more HP every two levels.]

johnnythexxxiv |

Eh, it's still too awkward for my tastes. Roll 2d12, take the better number, would sit better with me (although 2d10 take the better number would have a closer "average" value). Regardless, the class could still use an ability that injects a bit of flavor into it or expands its options outside of combat at least marginally.

kyrt-ryder |
In my personal opinion, you should never have a d10 or d12 die. They're too swingy. Far too often I've seen the d6 person wind up with way more HP than the higher dice person [and before you say 'take the average,' it's kind of silly having hit dice if they aren't going to be rolled.]
I suppose I could get behind Johnny's 'roll twice and take the better result' method, though it would need to be either an overarching rule or be another class ability of sorts.

kyrt-ryder |
That's why there's alternate rules for ability score generation. However, ability score generation is completely irrelevant. You shouldn't make up new types of hit dice just as you shouldn't make up new BAB and save progressions. It's bad form to mess with the math of the game like that.
Bad form?
I could see how it might be inadvisable, because the math of the game relates to so many different components.
In all likelihood that's probably part of why Paizo altered 3.5 rather than build their own d20 game.
Not sure how that makes it 'bad form' [or specifically what you mean by 'bad form' in this context.]

Gilarius |

You're inferring rules that aren't there Johnny. It's true that nothing with hit dice expressed in multiples has been printed before, but for that very reason there aren't rules stating what you're saying.
This might be true in Pathfinder, but 1st edition AD&D's ranger had 2d8 hit points for its first level.
At that time, CON bonus hit points referred only to a character's level, not number of hit dice.
However, the other criticisms are valid - no 'theme' or feel to the class, merely over-powered mechanical benefits so every character should take all 4 levels in it - except those which would be penalised for not staying in their original class, usually spellcasters.
To achieve the same results, simply add your over-powered abilities to all non-casters.

Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |

Bad form?
I could see how it might be inadvisable, because the math of the game relates to so many different components.
In all likelihood that's probably part of why Paizo altered 3.5 rather than build their own d20 game.
Not sure how that makes it 'bad form' [or specifically what you mean by 'bad form' in this context.]
I need to explain why breaking the math standards of the game for not really any good reason is a bad design?

kyrt-ryder |
It's the designers judgement what is or is not a good reason.
EDIT: to put things in perspective, this was a sample class I threw together while pondering ideas for the foundation of potent martial characters who would then take other classes intended to be picked up at level 5 [perhaps a separate group of classes every 4 levels, aka every Tier of Play?]
As far as the math goes? In my home games I've gone MUCH farther than that, stripping ability modifiers out of Attack rolls, Damage Rolls, Saving Throws, Hit Dice... and replacing them with static modifiers according to level and level-based-options.

Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |

It's the designers judgement what is or is not a good reason.
Yes, and my judgment does not see good reasons here.
Also, from my experience, I've found that even if you intend to houserule the way certain things work, it's still a good idea to try to design with PF standards. For example, I usually houserule that characters get Weapon Finesse for free. However, I still design classes with the assumption that characters still have to invest a feat into Weapon Finesse. Likewise, if you made a houserule that changes the Hit Die of classes, it's still a good idea to use standard Hit Die for the class you're designing. This not only makes your content more reusable, but also makes it easier to blanket your houserules.

Oskar Metalsound |

Is this supposed to be a full 20 level base class or a 4 level prestige class? Cause as a full 20 it's incredibly powerful. In addition, all the class features are just numerical bonuses with seem designed to make the class strong by having the highest numbers. Giving it Good saves for everything and a total of +5 to all saves by level 17, in addition to the cloak that a character of that level would have, means you can have a character with a base 21 to all saves before any ability bonuses. At least one save (I'd go with Reflex) should be made a poor save.
The Armor training isn't so bad if you remove the DR and either the sleeping in armor bonus or the Armor check bonus, but together it completely defeats any penalty to wearing the heaviest armor.
Ignoring the numerical prerequisites is a really weird wording of the feature. Does that mean they ignore ability score requirements and level requirements? Because if so, that completely breaks the progression of feats as characters level. Ignoring ability score prerequisite is alright, but if it ignores level requirements as well it should be down to at least once every 4 levels.
Also, make it d12 hit dice if you want high HP. 2d6 just looks confusing for managing hit dice. I know you said earlier that the character at level 4 would have 4 2d6 hit dice, but it runs completely counter to how every other version of hit dice works in the game. It doesn't even effect all that much, because the range of the dice went from 1-12 on a d12 to 2-12 on 2d6. All you did was eliminate the possibility of getting 1 hit point.

kyrt-ryder |
Is this supposed to be a full 20 level base class or a 4 level prestige class? Cause as a full 20 it's incredibly powerful.
Neither. It's a 4 level base class with abilities explicitly intended to scale according to BAB after the class is over.
In addition, all the class features are just numerical bonuses with seem designed to make the class strong by having the highest numbers. Giving it Good saves for everything and a total of +5 to all saves by level 17, in addition to the cloak that a character of that level would have, means you can have a character with a base 21 to all saves before any ability bonuses. At least one save (I'd go with Reflex) should be made a poor save.
It's intentional, laying a rock solid foundation for whatever special abilities the followup classes may have.
Also at this lowest level combat maneuvers are at their most viable, giving the class plenty of options in combat. [Along with a bonus feat every level.]
The Armor training isn't so bad if you remove the DR and either the sleeping in armor bonus or the Armor check bonus, but together it completely defeats any penalty to wearing the heaviest armor.
Fighters get fundamentally all of that, this is the Fighter class, condensed into 4 levels.
Ignoring the numerical prerequisites is a really weird wording of the feature. Does that mean they ignore ability score requirements and level requirements? Because if so, that completely breaks the progression of feats as characters level. Ignoring ability score prerequisite is alright, but if it ignores level requirements as well it should be down to at least once every 4 levels.
This is intentional. There isn't a combat feat in the game I wouldn't be fine with a level 4 character having [although most of them are burried under a mountain of prerequisites anyway.]
Also, make it d12 hit dice if you want high HP. 2d6 just looks confusing for managing hit dice. I know you said earlier that the character at level 4 would have 4 2d6 hit dice, but it runs completely counter to how every other version of hit dice works in the game. It doesn't even effect all that much, because the range of the dice went from 1-12 on a d12 to 2-12 on 2d6. All you did was eliminate the possibility of getting 1 hit point.
Indeed that's all it did. Like I said this isn't important to me, I just dislike the swinginess of hit dice over d8 when expressed as a single die.

Oskar Metalsound |

Neither. It's a 4 level base class with abilities explicitly intended to scale according to BAB after the class is over.
Okay... That's a really weird concept for a class. Why, exactly, do you want to stuff everything the Fighter does into what is, effectively, a 4 level prestige class that has features that stack with all class levels? You really should either expand it out to a full 20 level class or specifically make it a 4/5/10/whatever level prestige class. As it is now, the class is so different in how it works from everything else that it's hard to visualize how it would work in a Pathfinder game.

kyrt-ryder |
kyrt-ryder wrote:Okay... That's a really weird concept for a class. Why, exactly, do you want to stuff everything the Fighter does into what is, effectively, a 4 level prestige class that has features that stack with all class levels? You really should either expand it out to a full 20 level class or specifically make it a 4/5/10/whatever level prestige class. As it is now, the class is so different in how it works from everything else that it's hard to visualize how it would work in a Pathfinder game.Neither. It's a 4 level base class with abilities explicitly intended to scale according to BAB after the class is over.
You take it when you want to [presumably from Character Level 1] and when it's over you take something else.

Oskar Metalsound |

Oskar Metalsound wrote:You take it when you want to [presumably from Character Level 1] and when it's over you take something else.kyrt-ryder wrote:Okay... That's a really weird concept for a class. Why, exactly, do you want to stuff everything the Fighter does into what is, effectively, a 4 level prestige class that has features that stack with all class levels? You really should either expand it out to a full 20 level class or specifically make it a 4/5/10/whatever level prestige class. As it is now, the class is so different in how it works from everything else that it's hard to visualize how it would work in a Pathfinder game.Neither. It's a 4 level base class with abilities explicitly intended to scale according to BAB after the class is over.
Honestly, it feel more like this would work better as a template of sorts that can be applied to other classes.
Template: Soldier
Level 1: Soldiers Fortitude, Soldiers Training
Soldiers Fortitude: Soldiers are trained to be tough. All Martial Classes with this template may increase their Hit Dice by one step (i.e. d10 to d12, d8 to d10, so on)
Soldiers Training: Soldiers often pick up odd skills while they serve. A Soldier receives 4 bonus Skill Points per level
Level 2: Survival Instinct, Cunning Tactics
Survival Instinct: A Soldier needs to keep their wits about them. At level 2 a Soldier gains a +1 Inherent Bonus to all saves. Starting at level 5 and again every 3 levels after, a Soldier receives an additional +1 Inherent Bonus to one saving throw of her choice. These bonuses stack.
Cunning Tactics: At level 2 and at levels 4, 6, 8, 10, 13, 16 and 19, a Soldier receives a bonus Combat feat. Additionally, a Soldier treats all her ability scores and class levels as being 2 higher when it comes to meeting prerequisites for feats.
Level 3: Weightless Armor, Strike with Purpose
Weightless Armor: A Soldier is trained to be at ease in her armor. Starting at level 3 and again every 3 levels after, a Soldier treats the Armor Check Penalty of their armor as 1 less. Additionally, a Soldier may reduce the Movement Speed penalty of any armor she wears by 5 feet per 2 Soldier levels she posses.
Strike with Purpose: A Soldier is trained to strike with purpose. Beginning at level 3, a Soldier may add a +1 bonus to any single attack and damage roll she makes this turn with a weapon she is proficient with. At level 5 and every 4 levels thereafter, she may add an additional +1. This bonus may be added to a single attack or divided in +1 increments as the Soldier sees fit. A Soldier must apply a bonus to attack before the attack is rolled and must add the same amount to damage on that attack.
Level 4: Solid Shield, Rally
Solid Shield: Any time during her turn as a free action, a Soldier may forgo her Shield Bonus to AC to obtain DR/Adamantine or Magic equal to the Shield Bonus. This bonus becomes DR/Adamantine if the shield is magical. An Adamantine shield provides DR/Magic and a Magic Adamantine shield provides DR/-. This does not stack with Adamantine Armor.
Rally: For a number of rounds per day equal to her Martial Class level, a Soldier may obtain Fast Healing 1. At level 8 and every 4 levels thereafter, the Fast Healing value increased by +1, to a max of 5 at level 20.
Level 5: True Warrior
True Warrior: Starting at level 5, any Martial Class with the Soldier template may use her class level as her BaB.
Just off the top of my head, that basically functions as a template that allows any class to replicated the Fighter niche, without the issue of being a 4 level base class.