| Michael Grate |
I'm looking clarification on how these all work.
Note-I'm assuming I'm sundering for the purpose of this but I would guess they all work the same.
In addition, the cavalier can make a free bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver if his charge attack is successful.
In addition, the cavalier can make a free bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver if his charge attack is successful.
First, if my charge hits, do I do the damage and then make the sunder attempt or is the sunder attempt made in place of the damage to the enemy?
If the latter. do I assume that because I hit on the charge that the sunder is a hit or do I have to make the sunder attempt separately?When rolling the CMB for the sunder, do I add my charge bonus and magic weapon bonus as if it is a standard attack roll?
For example:
I'm level 12 with relevant feats of spirited charge and weapon focus.
BAB-12
Strength modifier-4
Weapon focus-1
+3 War lance-3 (enhancement bonus)
Cavaliers charge bonus-4
Teammates banner bonus-2
Total standard charge attack roll: 1d20 + 26 ⇒ (18) + 26 = 44
What do I add to my CMB then? I assumed it's everything there because it's made as part of the charge but I wanted to make sure.
Now, on the damage rolls, how does this work, specifically with the challenge bonus and charging bonus?
A Lance does (1d8)
Wielding it 2 handed-6
Weapon enhancment-3
Challenge-12
Threatening alone (Order of the Cockatrice)-16 total (standard+4)
Standard attack roll: 1d8 + 9 ⇒ (7) + 9 = 16 and total when challenging and threatening alone: 1d8 + 25 ⇒ (6) + 25 = 31
Standard charging attack roll: 3d8 + 27 ⇒ (4, 7, 1) + 27 = 39 and when charging, challenging and threatening alone: 3d8 + 75 ⇒ (7, 7, 1) + 75 = 90
I read a thread about the challenge but it seemed to end inconclusively (see below) and objects are immune to crits but the challenge multiplier isn't actually a crit, just a damage boost.
Am I doing using the:
Normal charging challenge attack: 3d8 + 75 ⇒ (6, 7, 6) + 75 = 94 (assuming I'm threatening alone)
normal charging attack roll without the challenge: 3d8 + 27 ⇒ (1, 3, 5) + 27 = 36
basic attack roll with the challenge: 1d8 + 25 ⇒ (7) + 25 = 32
or
basic damage roll: 1d8 + 9 ⇒ (1) + 9 = 10
Immunities
Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits."
| Pizza Lord |
First, if my charge hits, do I do the damage and then make the sunder attempt or is the sunder attempt made in place of the damage to the enemy?
You do damage. Then you make the free maneuver.
BAB: +12
Strength mod: +4
Weapon focus: +1
+3 War lance: +3 (enhancement bonus)
Cavalier's charge bonus: +4
Teammate's banner bonus: +2Total standard charge attack modifier: 26
+26 seems correct for what you've listed. I will mention that if your target is smaller than your mount (typically Large-size) and on foot then you receive a +1 higher ground bonus as well.
What do I add to my CMB then? I assumed it's everything there because it's made as part of the charge but I wanted to make sure.
Typically it will be BAB + Str + Size.
So right there you will have: 12 + 4 = 16. As for size, while you count as sharing your mount's space (Large-size) I couldn't find anything that technically said you count as Large with my quick skimming, so just +16 CMB so far.'When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver.'
So I believe in this case, you will also add your +4 from charging, your Weapon Focus, War Lance's enhancement bonus, etc. Basically everything including a higher ground bonus. From what I can tell, the only difference in modifiers would be from Size.
I will mention, however, that in most cases I don't believe your War Lance can be used to Sunder things, since that maneuver typically requires a slashing or bludgeoning weapons. While you may see lances breaking all the time in (real life) jousts, that's usually from striking opponent's shields not from knights sundering their opponent's weapons.
If instead of a Sunder you were to opt to make a Bull Rush as your free maneuver, then you wouldn't get Weapon Focus or the War Lance's modifier, since typically your weapon isn't accounted for in a Bull Rush, though I certainly would add the mount's size modifier in this case.
| Michael Grate |
I will mention, however, that in most cases I don't believe your War Lance can be used to Sunder things, since that maneuver typically requires a slashing or bludgeoning weapons. While you may see lances breaking all the time in (real life) jousts, that's usually from striking opponent's shields not from knights sundering their opponent's weapons.If instead of a Sunder you were to opt to make a Bull Rush as your free maneuver, then you...
Thank you very much for the help here.
Though, one issue is that I don't see anything in regards to sunder requiring it to be a slashing or bludgeoning weapon. I think you might be referring to smashing an object.Smashing a weapon or shield with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon is accomplished with the sunder combat maneuver. Smashing an object is like sundering a weapon or shield, except that your combat maneuver check is opposed by the object's AC. Generally, you can smash an object only with a bludgeoning or slashing weapon.
| Pizza Lord |
Indeed Michael Grate, indeed.
And so I shall leave you with some ancient words that a wise man once said. They touched me and explained to me how things worked. I know, I'll admit that it sounds like a goofy platitude that could just be tossed into any post, but I am sure you will see the wisdom.
Ahem.
Another argument against "RAW" is that Pathfinder wasn't written in a regimented, hard coded format by a single, all knowing author. And it was never meant to be interpreted that way, either.
It began as cut-and-paste from a different game, went through edits by several founders who had a vision, by a company that hired more authors, contributors, and editors, all with varying levels of experience or knowledge of the original vision, and then was reprinted, FAQ'd, and changed to what we have today. On top of all that, what we have today might not be what we have tomorrow, or next week.
That leaves a lot of room for errors, ambiguities, formatting, and just plain English to mess things up.
Sometimes a legitimate conflict exists. But just because some things are left to interpretation does not mean everything should be. This is one of those occurrences where "common sense", however common you wish to define it, should be fairly obvious.
Ride on, brave cavalier.