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I know it's been done many times before, but this version of the no make-up experiment was particularly powerful for me. I made my kids (both boys) watch it, just to remind them just how cruel the internet is, and how unreasonable expectations for women in our society are...
Did you also explain what self esteem is and why they should have it? Or why the opinion of a bunch of random strangers isn't really as important as some seem to think it is?
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Objectification of women is a terrible, terrible thing, as is societal pressure put upon them to make them conform to some Cosmo-approved standard of beauty.
La Principessa was telling me that she's been putting on weight and that it's all been going to her breasts and buttocks. In fact, she had to stop wearing her 32 DD brassieres and buy 32 DDD brassieres.
I told her it was okay.
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Objectification of women is a terrible, terrible thing, as is societal pressure put upon them to make them conform to some Cosmo-approved standard of beauty.
La Principessa was telling me that she's been putting on weight and that it's all been going to her breasts and buttocks. In fact, she had to stop wearing her 32 DD brassieres and buy 32 DDD brassieres.
I told her it was okay.
When you coming to ny again...?
Hey! You stay away from Prospect Park, Freehold! I'm watching you!
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Did you also explain what self esteem is and why they should have it? Or why the opinion of a bunch of random strangers isn't really as important as some seem to think it is?
Depends on what you mean by, "Explain what self esteem is," because then it would be a, "No."
I pointed out that no matter who you are, how you look, or what you say, someone's going to say nasty things about you. And you have to ignore it all and not let it bother you, because people can be real jerks. Be yourself, be confident in your own abilities, and you'll be fine.
I have no worries about Impus Major -- his ability to let others' opinions slide while simultaneously maintaining an incredible degree of compassion is the envy of us all. Impus Minor is far more likely to take things personally, and he's the one posting videos on YouTube. So better to show the video to both...
Hey! You stay away from Prospect Park, Freehold! I'm watching you!
Hey! You stay away from Prospect Park, Freehold! I'm watching you!
Watch your bike, too. I hear Freehold likes to steal 'em and throw 'em at you when you aren't looking...
...or maybe that's just me. I'm charming that way...
Did you also explain what self esteem is and why they should have it? Or why the opinion of a bunch of random strangers isn't really as important as some seem to think it is?Depends on what you mean by, "Explain what self esteem is," because then it would be a, "No."
I pointed out that no matter who you are, how you look, or what you say, someone's going to say nasty things about you. And you have to ignore it all and not let it bother you, because people can be real jerks. Be yourself, be confident in your own abilities, and you'll be fine.
I have no worries about Impus Major -- his ability to let others' opinions slide while simultaneously maintaining an incredible degree of compassion is the envy of us all. Impus Minor is far more likely to take things personally, and he's the one posting videos on YouTube. So better to show the video to both...
Well that's good then, at least for the elder it sounds like. It's unfortunate that so many seem to be unable to do that these days. It's kinda sad that so many people seem so fragile. My daughter, the older kid, also has a good grip on her sense of self while my son, the younger, is a bit like you describe your younger.
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Well that's good then, at least for the elder it sounds like. It's unfortunate that so many seem to be unable to do that these days. It's kinda sad that so many people seem so fragile. My daughter, the older kid, also has a good grip on her sense of self while my son, the younger, is a bit like you describe your younger.
Well, the reason I answered so carefully is that I think that self-same "self-esteem movement" is much to blame for people's fragility. When you're constantly told that you're great, you're fantastic, and everything you do deserves an award (the infamous "participation awards"), finding out that someone doesn't like you for no good reason can be devastating.
My sister-in-law was a great example: She honestly believed that it would be better for my nephews if they never experienced negative emotions. No disappointment, no frustration, no sense of loss, etc. Needless to say, they ended up being utter train wrecks, throwing fall-on-the-floor tantrums at 8 or 9 years old any time they didn't get EXACTLY their way, to the point the parents took the older child to a psychologist and started talking about him being autistic.
The psychologist saw the problem and promptly fixed the parents, teaching them that kids need to hear, "No," early and often. Failure builds character. And now the kids are far better-adjusted, after just a couple of years of hearing, "No."
So forgive me, but the words, "Self-esteem" make me bristle. I prefer, "Being confident in both your strengths and your weaknesses."
I am a horrible artist. I will never be an artist. For someone to praise my art is facile. For me to take pride in it would be embarrassing.
But you're absolutely right -- the key is to know yourself, be confident in yourself, and not worry about what others say. I'm a fat, middle-aged, pasty-skinned white guy who will never grace the cover of GQ. The point is that I can confidently say, "So what?" and not concern myself with it. People will disagree with me on religion, politics, and even basic facts like the age of the universe. And I can listen to their (possibly hate-filled) tirades without taking it as some kind of personal shortcoming on my part.
THAT is the key, and it's SOOOOOO much harder for women than for men that it's hard to comprehend the pressure they're under...
That's why I loved the video so much. She started off without makeup and was called ugly, disgusting, and more hateful things because she dared display her blemishes. Then she put ON the makeup and was labeled a deceiver, dishonest, and hateful because it wasn't "real". She couldn't win. THAT'S the message I think is so important in that video: No matter what she did, she got hate-filled comments from low-brained anonymous cowards. And (hopefully) she was brave enough to shake it all off as the chaff it was.
Everyone needs to learn to be so brave.
I dunno. I think the "Self-esteem" movement was reacting to exactly the same problems you're blaming it for. Not that it actually fixed them, but that they pre-existed.
I agree 100%. As usual in education (worked there for 15+ years), they correctly identified a problem, and rather than spending time and money trying to come up with a solution, they just tried the first idea someone came up with... or that's what it always seemed like. Something I *really* don't miss about public education.
Bullying and taunting and cliques and mean girls and all the other crap goes back to when my parents were kids at least... Shaming and pressuring others is a huge part of that.
Again, 100% agreement, but I'm pretty sure I've seen references as far back as Greek texts (either the Iliad or the Odyssey, I believe), so try thousands of years...
It's easy to look back on as an adult or as an adult look at kids going through it and think it's easy "to know yourself, be confident in yourself, and not worry about what others say". That just means you've forgotten what being that age was like.
Are you kidding? I consider it the hardest thing a person ever does, and most of us fail, even through adulthood. If I were forced to throw out a random number, I'd guess 70-80% of adults still fail in that endeavor. It's HARD.
It's not that I've forgotten, it's that I wish it was easier...
You're really just starting to define out who you are, so it's hard to know and be confident in it. And a huge part of the development process then is about sorting out your place in your peer social hierarchy, which makes not worrying about what others say seem kind of ridiculous. We're social animals. What our peers think of us is vitally important.
Again, 100% agreement from me. I think you misread my statement as, "It's easy," when I was really saying, "Wow, I wish it were so easy for everyone..."
EDIT: Honestly, I think I was particularly lucky. I was *the* most-hated guy in high school. I couldn't walk down the hall without having stuff thrown at me. I had a guy pull a knife on me in class and carve up my shirt. After nearly 3 years, I just decided I didn't care about any of them any more, and felt the world would be better off without them. The minute I didn't care about them at all, they suddenly considered me the coolest kid in school and wanted to hang out with me. And I refused. Which made me even cooler.
Teenagers make no sense. Never have. Never will.
I completely agree with you that at least one, if not the only, source of the problem is kids being brought up without ever hearing no and being rewarded for things that really aren't worthy of reward. It gives no real sense of perspective on anything, so way overboard is just the default starting position.
And as you say, quite a few constraints have been put on educators so they usually don't have the option to provide some discipline. You try that now and you're likely to face a law suit for child abuse or some nonsense.
And then you see news stories about people's kids being picked up by CPS for playing outside. Parents are being forced to hover or risk having their kids taken away. Some busybodies seem to think there are pedophiles and kidnappers under every bush. Things are just going really wonky in this society.
Edit: also, expecting reasonable comments on YouTube is just crazy. That's where you go to see commentary from the dregs of humanity. I suppose 4chan, or whatever it's called now, might be worse, but not by much.
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Its pretty simple. People are angry, belligerent, and nasty balls of hormones that would kill you in a heart beat and step over your corpse for an ipad.
Children have not learned to hide this as well as adults have.
None of the youtube comments are beyond what i would hear back in highschool from the worst kids in the class. What the internet has done is to expose people to the absolute worst people from everywhere, and removed the possibility of the person you're talking about smacking you upside the head: which is the only thing that keeps too many people in line. Its not a larger societal change.
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
(quote may be faked, but the faking itself is old enough to demonstrate the point anyway)
When did the participation trophy become a thing?
When did the participation trophy become a thing?
Back in the 1970's when I was in school, at least in my area. I know that when I was in elementary and middle school, if you were in 4th place or below you just "sucked it up" and dealt with it. By my junior year in high school I know I participated in a statewide math competition and everyone got a medal just for showing up. Definitely by the late 80's it was a strong trend everywhere I heard about, and people were already making jokes about it.
And it's still going strong today. My kids have mandatory annual science projects. They get ribbons no matter how they do, just for doing their actual homework.
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While I agree with you for the most part, BigNorseWolf, I think you missed the HUGE part anonymity plays in this. You did talk about, "...removed the possibility of the person you're talking about smacking you upside the head," but I think it's even more than that: If people are guaranteed anonymity, they have no hesitation in spewing the vilest, most vicious stuff about others you can imagine.
The difference is that in the past it was limited to gossip in sewing clubs and locker rooms (stereotyping, folks!), and it was a generally-respected principle that such bile would not get back to the ears of the target. With the anonymity of the interwebs, many feel it's perfectly OK to vent their phlegm on their targets directly.
I'm not so sure it's a generational thing. Many exposed cyberbullies have been in their 40's and 50's, not just angry clueless teens. As even I am getting tired of hearing me say, I think it's a combination of the protection of anonymity and the HUGE pool of people from which the interwebs draws its bile.
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When did the participation trophy become a thing?Back in the 1970's when I was in school, at least in my area. I know that when I was in elementary and middle school, if you were in 4th place or below you just "sucked it up" and dealt with it. By my junior year in high school I know I participated in a statewide math competition and everyone got a medal just for showing up. Definitely by the late 80's it was a strong trend everywhere I heard about, and people were already making jokes about it.
And it's still going strong today. My kids have mandatory annual science projects. They get ribbons no matter how they do, just for doing their actual homework.
damn. Can't find my glasses.
Nobody, pass me those rose colored ones by you for a sec?
I completely agree with you that at least one, if not the only, source of the problem is kids being brought up without ever hearing no and being rewarded for things that really aren't worthy of reward. It gives no real sense of perspective on anything, so way overboard is just the default starting position.
And as you say, quite a few constraints have been put on educators so they usually don't have the option to provide some discipline. You try that now and you're likely to face a law suit for child abuse or some nonsense.
And then you see news stories about people's kids being picked up by CPS for playing outside. Parents are being forced to hover or risk having their kids taken away. Some busybodies seem to think there are pedophiles and kidnappers under every bush. Things are just going really wonky in this society.
Edit: also, expecting reasonable comments on YouTube is just crazy. That's where you go to see commentary from the dregs of humanity. I suppose 4chan, or whatever it's called now, might be worse, but not by much.
HEY!
....I met moot once, he was nice...
While I agree with you for the most part, BigNorseWolf, I think you missed the HUGE part anonymity plays in this. You did talk about, "...removed the possibility of the person you're talking about smacking you upside the head," but I think it's even more than that: If people are guaranteed anonymity, they have no hesitation in spewing the vilest, most vicious stuff about others you can imagine.
Anonymity is a large part of what keeps you from getting knocked upside the head.
When did the participation trophy become a thing?Back in the 1970's when I was in school, at least in my area. I know that when I was in elementary and middle school, if you were in 4th place or below you just "sucked it up" and dealt with it. By my junior year in high school I know I participated in a statewide math competition and everyone got a medal just for showing up. Definitely by the late 80's it was a strong trend everywhere I heard about, and people were already making jokes about it.
And it's still going strong today. My kids have mandatory annual science projects. They get ribbons no matter how they do, just for doing their actual homework.
I'm really having a hard time seeing any causal connection between this and kids being twits, unless you're also willing to concede that the participation trophy thing is also responsible for drops in racism, sexism, sexual assault, teen pregnancy and homophobia.
A twit is a twit, no matter how young :-)
When did parents start going insane over their kid's sporting events?
When did parents start going insane over their kid's sporting events?
When kids started having organized sports.
You're trying to treat your generation (and by extention, you) as the only one that's not messed up when in fact we're just as messed up as anyone else past of present. Things really don't change.
When did parents start going insane over their kid's sporting events?When kids started having organized sports.
You're trying to treat your generation (and by extention, you) as the only one that's not messed up when in fact we're just as messed up as anyone else past of present. Things really don't change.
Not at all. I would never say that my generation is not messed up. But I would also never say that things aren't changing. The human population is expanding faster than our ability to deal with those not like us can keep up. Humans have never been good at dealing with others, but there used to be enough space to distance ourselves from those we didn't want to be near. If people want to be more peaceful, more work is required now. Most people aren't really interested in putting in the effort.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong. I'm certainly not going to die on a hill I'm not really sure needs to be defended.
Meh. They said the same thing when they built hadrians wall. When they reached california. And probably when they reached the tip of south america and said "the end". Change happens, we manage.
Meh. They said the same thing when they built hadrians wall. When they reached california. And probably when they reached the tip of south america and said "the end". Change happens, we manage.
Well I certainly hope you're right. And I really hope that managing does not take the form of some sort of purge.
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Went out to lunch with La Principessa, La Principessa's Single Mother Comrade and La Principessa's Single Mother Comrade's 7-Year-Old ADHD-Diagnosed Son and the latter, for no apparent reason whatsoever, called La Principessa "Big Bra."
Out of the mouths of babes, etc.
He also referred to me as "Big Belly" (shut up, brat!) and, much more worrisome, "Daddy."
I like that kid!
Also, are you in town?
More importantly, when are you *leaving* town?
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And as you say, quite a few constraints have been put on educators so they usually don't have the option to provide some discipline. You try that now and you're likely to face a law suit for child abuse or some nonsense.
Apply that to parents as well, from what I read. A woman in texas got arrested for letting her kids play in the front yard while she sat on the porch and watched them. All because some neighbor saw the kids running around in the street and side walk (this was a quiet suburban residential area, from what I can recall) and called the police. The charge? "Child Endangerment" and "Child abandonment"... She spent six or so hours at the local jail. Her kids were left home alone because of it, during dinner time, on a school night.
I've also seen a mass of parents getting jailed for "beating" their kids when all they did was give 'em a quick spank or a slap on the back of the hand. You can't even tell your kid to shut up and be quiet when they're screaming about being unable to get a mcdonalds apple pie without getting dirty looks. Drag the screaming brat out of the store? Cops called.
People wonder why I never want kids?
Still, much as I'm a firm believer in humans, as instinctual animals with some cheap tricks like "speech" and "using tools" in their arsenal, are selfish, self-centered, spiteful, hateful things, there's still a few good apples around. We're gonna have to take charge of our own evolution and ingrain basic "human kindness" (which I don't think exists at this point) into something a bit more than just societal niceties.
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Its pretty simple. People are angry, belligerent, and nasty balls of hormones that would kill you in a heart beat and step over your corpse for an ipad.There's a free iPad?
Which one of you jerks do I (have to / get to) kill for it ?
Doodlebug.
Worry not friend. La Principessa and i will mourn you. Our marriage will be in name only.
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I completely agree with you that at least one, if not the only, source of the problem is kids being brought up without ever hearing no and being rewarded for things that really aren't worthy of reward. It gives no real sense of perspective on anything, so way overboard is just the default starting position.
I absolutely DISAGREE. Well, maybe not (but I do on the part I quoted)...but most of the time that I hear people say these things, these are the same people that WANT kids to be bullied and try to justify it.
I think kids need a stricter hand in MANY instances. What they need is to have a sense of structure and discipline. They need an environment where they can grow and develop. That has NOTHING to do with whether they receive rewards or punishments. Rewards or punishments may be tools to enforce discipline and structure, but are not necessarily a means to an end.
I think ALL kids need to be rewarded for participating in sports, for example. You want to know WHY WE HAVE AN OBESITY problem. You want to know why we have a bunch of Americans who are middle age and overweight (actually, MORE than just overweight, obese, which is a massive problem in the US). It's because they don't exercise. You know why they don't exercise...because they don't think it's fun.
Adults think they don't have time, but they have time to watch TV or movies...why is that...because they feel TV and movies are fun or far more fun than exercise.
This starts as kids...when many were taught or teased about how badly they did or were able to do. Psychologically, that built in a hatred or dislike of exercise...and to them it became an unfun activity.
I'd say, award kids and do anything and everything you can to get them to exercise. ON TOP of that, when someone says, reward the winners...and the losers get nothing...sometimes that's a VERY loaded item.
For example...I coached soccer this past season. They adhere to this, don't reward those who don't win...idea. I hated the results. Why? Because the league was loaded.
It was supposed to be a league of 9-10 year olds. I ended up with a two 7 year olds, mostly 8 year olds, and three 9 year olds.
I then saw the size of some of the teams we were playing. I asked my players if they knew them from school and how old these kids actually were. They sure seemed pretty large. We were playing 11 and 12 year olds in many instances.
It would have been challenging enough had my team of an average age of 8 year olds played the 9 and 10 year olds...but playing 11 and 12 year olds. That's not much of a challenge.
I think it was awesome that the 7 year old actually could take the ball from 12 year olds and run it down the field, but when facing two twelve year olds or at times three...that really isn't something an attacker can do against the defenders.
I think every player on my team deserved a medal 10X more than those who somehow got their 11 and 12 year olds on their teams.
But guess who won and who got the trophies and medals at the end.
I did everything I could to try to make the kids realize soccer is fun, and even if we don't win, cheating eventually catches up with those who do it.
However...I find many who think only the winners should get medals and awards don't take into account the fact that many times those wins aren't warranted...NOR do they take into account that these are kids we are raising and the effects of telling them they are no good or aren't terrific can be devastating (as in fact, looking at the rate of the US's exercise rate...perhaps with the 80% who were told they were losers previously are a major reason why most of those don't think they are any good at it or want to do it for recreation today).
In many instances, just participating takes FAR more courage (as with that 7 year old taking on 12 year olds in soccer) than winning.
And many times it's the reward that we give the kids that encourage them to do more.
This doesn't mean I'm against punishment, I think at times that's the only way to instill discipline and structure into children's lives...but at the same time, even now, I don't think we reward our kids enough for doing good, or doing good things.
I think us kids have no respect for our elders. Our generation has been poisoned by the television device, and also internet and rap.
School is whack and so are rules
Tucking in your shirt's for fools!
I would kinda like to see a whole thread just discussing spanking. The obvious jokes aside (just kidding, obvious jokes are the best part of any thread), it's an interesting conversation to have.
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I think us kids have no respect for our elders. Our generation has been poisoned by the television device, and also internet and rap.
[Writing] will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.
-Socrates, whining about kids and their fancy writing.
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Interestingly, if there is a lesson to be learned from the video, I think it has much more to do with the internet than with unrealistic body image expectations.
I mean sure the video happened to be about a girl with acne, but you can find very similar nasty comments in just about every video where someone exposes themselves. It could be one where you sing (some people will be very quick to point out that you and your voice are an atrocity), or even just express an opinion. And you are not only going to get criticized for how good your face/singing/opinion is, but also for any other conceivable detail. Cloths, appearance, accent, age, anything.
The internet is a hazardous combination of anonymity and access. *anyone* can watch your video and say *anything* without repercussion, not even the mild drawback of having to look you in the eye as they say it.
The rest is just statistics, and anyone wishing to be able to function in the digital age must be able to grasp that. Out of thousands (or in this case millions) of views, of course some will be asshats. If 5% of comments are random angry teenagers exulting in their power to offend, then for a video of 10,000 views you will get hundreds of hateful comments - and that's small scale.
More than this case is telling about beauty standards, it is about the need for people to learn to adjust to the way the internet works.
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You know why we have an obesity problem? Because food is so ridiculously abundant that pretty much everyone keeps more food than they need in a cupboard or refrigerator in the next room. And then, because of all the magical inventions available to just about everyone, our lives are largely leisurely. People don't have to spend hours on the hunt hoping to find food for dinner tonight. And humans have not yet evolved away from feeling like if there is food handy it should be eaten because there may not be food available later. Exercise is now leisure time activity, not part of day to day life. Except for people whose primary job involves manual labor, which aren't a lot.
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I'm leaving tomorrow, Freehold, and I have instructed La Principessa to stay far away from you.
As far as other topics that this thread has touched on, La Principessa likes to be spanked.
Was that Socrates or Plato appropriating his name?
That quote is from Plato putting words in Socrates' mouth in Phaedrus, but the idea actually originates from Alcidamas' On Sophists.