Had a discussion with my gaming group the other night about the Oracle class and it would seem that most of us, myself included, have a fairly negative opinion about the class.
It has only one good save, no full base attack bonus, a lackluster spell list, and some pretty severe built-in drawbacks (oracle's curse, which seems really forced). The only things it seems to really have going for it, insofar as we can tell, are a few cool feats (such as Divine Protection, for example) and the fact that you can go really far on just your Charisma score. Even so, it looks to us like those things are simply an attempt to cover for the class' overall weaknesses.
I've made some interesting concept characters with the class (such as Drosil the time lord or Lermos the Death Prophet), but none that I felt surpassed other potential class choices from a mechanical standpoint.
However, if these forums are any indication, there are a great many people out there who think that it is a GREAT class.
What is it that we are missing?
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Well, before I really proceed with this, allow me to ask you one question: What do you think of the cleric?
It may be the type of player you are missing. Namely, a player that wants to learn about being a divine spellcaster, yet has decision paralysis when making spell lists at the beginning of their day.
I find that sorcerers and Oracles are great training wheels for players that want to learn to play mages, yet can't make up their minds about prepared spell lists, or are unwise in their selections and take up slots with niche spells that they won't use for the day.
Such spontaneous casters force people to think long term and find spells that are useful most days. Your group might be filled with people that already know what to pick for the day, or those that avoid casters altogether (not sure without knowing your group).
Well, before I really proceed with this, allow me to ask you one question: What do you think of the cleric?
More boring conceptually, but a bit tougher mechanically. Knowing everything on the cleric spell list really helps to make the spell list seem less lackluster than it actually is. It also doesn't have a built in curse mechanic hindering it.
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In no particular order some things I like about the class:
1. Very modular design with the choice of curse, mystery, and revelations so you can better customize your theme and also not get stuck with any terrible "part of the package" powers. Contrast with sorcerer bloodlines or domains where once you make the choice you are locked in completely.
2. Curses as severe drawbacks? The only one I would really call that is Clouded Vision, with the rest fairly easy to work around, plus the downsides often come with some rather good benefits.
3. The cleric list does better suit itself to prepared casting due to the number of rather specialized spells, but realistically you are still a 9th level caster and not everyone enjoys the added stress of prepared casting. Spontaneous casting can be seen as a plus if you are one of those people.
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Most of the curses give better than they take. I just hate the curse for thematic purposes. That a divinely powered class would have a curse it can't remove using its vast magical abilities implies that your deity is just picking on you.
The best thing about the oracle is that it's a full caster able to cover the healer role while being able to handle most of the blaster role as well.
Well, before I really proceed with this, allow me to ask you one question: What do you think of the cleric?More boring conceptually, but a bit tougher mechanically. Knowing everything on the cleric spell list really helps to make the spell list seem less lackluster than it actually is.
Ah. That explains it. You think that the Oracle can't cast everything on the Cleric spell list. Well, allow me to disavow you of this misconception with one simple magic item: The Mnemonic Vestment. Now, I'll be the first to admit that more than a few Cleric spells are less than versatile at best. That being said, with this item and scrolls of those spells, you can cast them at any time. Even better, more than a few of these non-versatile spells aren't actually in-combat things, and this item can easily become a "put it on when I need it" sort of thing, letting you wear your heavy armor the rest of the time.
In addition, you seem to have not mentioned anything about Mysteries. I'll admit, if you just want divine spells, you don't really have to step outside of Cleric. But you don't go to Oracle for just divine magic: You go for the mysteries. Some of them are out and out fantastic (looking at you, Nature, Lunar, and Lore!), and really add in a lot of flavor that you just don't get as a Cleric.
Also, Curses are not drawbacks, especially at high levels. In fact, curses like Lame, Tongues, or Legalistic could quite possibly never come up, and Lame in particular offers excellent benefits. In short, a lot of the issues you seem to have with it just don't exist in my eyes. Hope this helps to explain some things, at least.
Oracles are a mechanically well-designed class. Just about every feature has some built-in progression and scaling - Curses, lots of Revelations, Archetypes, everything. There are loads of nice class features that build the type of character you want to play, and just about every mystery will leave you wanting more Revelations. Something as simple as a Battle Oracle still gets lots of good options that are hard to choose between.
It's one of those classes where you can have wildly different builds based on the same chassis, and all of them be pretty good. They can range from facebreaking to full caster by way of druid-impersonator, hypnotic pattern specialist, werewolf-guy, charisma-monster, undead lord, dedicated healer etc. You can build to a niche very well, and don't need much system mastery to do it.
Clerics are mechanically stronger but only get one or two interesting class features.
We seem to be getting a lot of this thread lately. Theme-wise, I think Oracles are a bit more fun than Clerics, and the combination of Mysteries and Curses makes them a bit more varied.
Mechanically, they have some problems, especially when compared to Clerics (who are superior healers and anti-undead measures), and Shamans (who are superior in every way).
It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
For Initiative, there's Noble Scion. Specifically, it's Scion of War. For saves, it's Divine Protection
Also, that's why you should be a Lunar Oracle instead, and pick up a tiger animal companion.
The Noble Scion: war and Divine Protection feats, respectively. Also Lunar and Lore can get CHA to AC as well. Between the 3 mysteries you can make a lot of different concepts. Lunar can especially be nasty if your level is high enough, as you can get wild shape, natural attacks which stack on top of it, and an animal companion.
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There's one pretty nifty thing about oracles that nobody here has mentioned: they're a divine casting class that uses the Cleric spell list, but they're missing that clause in their contract that restircts clerics to casting spells of their own alignment.
Ever find an intriguing-looking spell, only to realize it's verboten because it has the [evil] descriptor you're not doing "that kind of campaign"? Well, roll an Oracle! Build a zombie army! Death Knell your enemies! Spont-cast a Maximized Empowered Inflict Serious Wounds! Play with all the shiny toys your GM never let you use! And do it all with "Neutral Good" and "Chosen deity: Desna" written on your character sheet! Straight face optional!
It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
For Initiative, there's Noble Scion. Specifically, it's Scion of War. For saves, it's Divine Protection
Also, that's why you should be a Lunar Oracle instead, and pick up a tiger animal companion.
Ah, I see. Those feats can be taken by anyone, though; I thought he was talking about a specific Oracle Revelation.
In any case, I know the popular sentiment on the boards is that in-combat healing is gauche or unnecessary, but I've yet to play in, run for, or witness a Pathfinder group that didn't require in-combat healing to keep them alive. These theoretical all-gunslinger massive damage parties may exist, but I've never seen one in the wild.
I wish Oracles were actually a bit better at sustainable healing, because while Clerics are awesome at keeping low-level parties alive, they're incredibly boring to play.
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Oracles are like Clerics that don't make me fall asleep on reading the class entry.
Wasn't there a thread just like this not long ago? Anyone have a link?
*edit*
Found it: Why do people like the oracle so much?
Rather than just reposting and getting a lot of the same answers.
It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
For Initiative, there's Noble Scion. Specifically, it's Scion of War. For saves, it's Divine Protection
Also, that's why you should be a Lunar Oracle instead, and pick up a tiger animal companion.
Ah, I see. Those feats can be taken by anyone, though; I thought he was talking about a specific Oracle Revelation.
In any case, I know the popular sentiment on the boards is that in-combat healing is gauche or unnecessary, but I've yet to play in, run for, or witness a Pathfinder group that didn't require in-combat healing to keep them alive. These theoretical all-gunslinger massive damage parties may exist, but I've never seen one in the wild.
I wish Oracles were actually a bit better at sustainable healing, because while Clerics are awesome at keeping low-level parties alive, they're incredibly boring to play.
Ignoring the fact that you could use a standard action to try and kill someone real quick to address the whole in-combat healing thing.... Literally pretty much everything a Life Shaman would get for healing comes from the Life Oracle, and Oracles hilariously outheal Clerics if they go life. Add in that the Oracle literally gets cure spells for free, and more slots per day.... Yeah, I don't know how you reached the conclusion you did.
Life Shamans are worse than life oracles though. Especially some of their key abilities. Lifelink from a shaman I had to reread like three times since I couldn't believe it was that bad in comparison.
Ignoring the fact that you could use a standard action to try and kill someone real quick to address the whole in-combat healing thing.... Literally pretty much everything a Life Shaman would get for healing comes from the Life Oracle, and Oracles hilariously outheal Clerics if they go life. Add in that the Oracle literally gets cure spells for free, and more slots per day.... Yeah, I don't know how you reached the conclusion you did.It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
For Initiative, there's Noble Scion. Specifically, it's Scion of War. For saves, it's Divine Protection
Also, that's why you should be a Lunar Oracle instead, and pick up a tiger animal companion.
Ah, I see. Those feats can be taken by anyone, though; I thought he was talking about a specific Oracle Revelation.
In any case, I know the popular sentiment on the boards is that in-combat healing is gauche or unnecessary, but I've yet to play in, run for, or witness a Pathfinder group that didn't require in-combat healing to keep them alive. These theoretical all-gunslinger massive damage parties may exist, but I've never seen one in the wild.
I wish Oracles were actually a bit better at sustainable healing, because while Clerics are awesome at keeping low-level parties alive, they're incredibly boring to play.
Life Oracles aren't the only type of Oracle, for starters, and they aren't on the list of Mysteries that get to add CHA to any of their other stats, either. And being that good at healing leaves them with little in the way of other abilities (buffing, undead killing, etc). A Cleric gets to be good at healing, can spontaneously cast healing spells, *and* gets two domans (and their domain spell slots) without having to take a drawback. Non-life Oracles don't even get channeling.
Also, if you can consistently kill a creature with a single standard action as an alternative to healing, then your GM isn't really doing their job in terms of challenge level.
Spirit Guide gives the Oracle a lot of the Shaman's goodies.
Life Oracles aren't the only type of Oracle, for starters, and they aren't on the list of...Ignoring the fact that you could use a standard action to try and kill someone real quick to address the whole in-combat healing thing.... Literally pretty much everything a Life Shaman would get for healing comes from the Life Oracle, and Oracles hilariously outheal Clerics if they go life. Add in that the Oracle literally gets cure spells for free, and more slots per day.... Yeah, I don't know how you reached the conclusion you did.It's not really that big of a deal, since their CHA bonus *replaces* the other bonuses, rather than adding to it like the Paladin's CHA to saves bonus. It also takes up a Revelation you could be using for something else.
And really, it's not like there are many other good reasons to be a Nature Oracle. CHA to AC/CMD is about all they have going for them.
Also, how are Oracles getting CHA to init and saves?
For Initiative, there's Noble Scion. Specifically, it's Scion of War. For saves, it's Divine Protection
Also, that's why you should be a Lunar Oracle instead, and pick up a tiger animal companion.
Ah, I see. Those feats can be taken by anyone, though; I thought he was talking about a specific Oracle Revelation.
In any case, I know the popular sentiment on the boards is that in-combat healing is gauche or unnecessary, but I've yet to play in, run for, or witness a Pathfinder group that didn't require in-combat healing to keep them alive. These theoretical all-gunslinger massive damage parties may exist, but I've never seen one in the wild.
I wish Oracles were actually a bit better at sustainable healing, because while Clerics are awesome at keeping low-level parties alive, they're incredibly boring to play.
Meanwhile, an Oracle can cast it's "domain" spells as often as needed, gets more spells per day, and whatever it's mystery provides. A life Oracle can also jack it's channel ability up to the point where it remains relevant at high levels, which is harder for a cleric.
And while any one who can cast second level divine spells can take Divine Protection, only the Oracle is SAD enough to maximize it without some pretty intense Multiclassing.
Clerics are probably the stronger class still. But they largely get to be so by being better generalists, where as the Oracle is much better at what it specializes in. The secret to enjoying the Oracle is carving out your niche. I love Ancestor in games where you don't get wealth by levels, for example, because you get to make your own free scaling weapons and armor, with zero encumbrance or armor check penalties.
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I love Ancestor in games where you don't get wealth by levels, for example, because you get to make your own free scaling weapons and armor, with zero encumbrance or armor check penalties.
I love wood (oracles) for the same reason, but they get psuedo-full BAB with wood weapons too.
Curses as severe drawbacks? The only one I would really call that is Clouded Vision, with the rest fairly easy to work around, plus the downsides often come with some rather good benefits.
You've clearly never seen a deaf oracle in play. SO disruptive!
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Plus oracle automatically gain cure or inflict spells as well so its not like they have to spend spells known to take it either. Same as cleric.
As mentioned Spirit guide is extremely useful to grab some of the better spirit abilities and get channel even on an oracle that wouldn't have it. Plus they can swap that spirit for one more fitting on a given day.
Not to mention dual cursed which gives you free re-rolls for yourself and others as an immediate action.
Ever since I started playing oracles I've never found a cleric that is as fun. I always found their domains very lackluster for the most part and the utter lack of a capstone is disheartening.
Curses as severe drawbacks? The only one I would really call that is Clouded Vision, with the rest fairly easy to work around, plus the downsides often come with some rather good benefits.You've clearly never seen a deaf oracle in play. SO disruptive!
How so? It takes one rank in Liguistics to read lips.
Curses as severe drawbacks? The only one I would really call that is Clouded Vision, with the rest fairly easy to work around, plus the downsides often come with some rather good benefits.You've clearly never seen a deaf oracle in play. SO disruptive!
Was in a game with one for like a year. Never really had an issue as he could read lips and had a tiny chalkboard.
Knowing everything on the cleric spell list really helps to make the spell list seem less lackluster than it actually is. It also doesn't have a built in curse mechanic hindering it.
I think the core issue is that you think the cleric spell list is lack luster. I would say the first three spell levels or so are pretty lame a few stand out exceptions, but when you get to 4th level spells and up, I love the cleric list. Why do you dislike it? What do you think is missing?
And the curses, excepting the blindness one, are way more benefit than curse. I actually like the curses and wish some of them were accessible to other classes.
You know what's so much cooler than neat class abilities with associated penalties? Neat class abilities without associated penalties.
And yes, one of our big beefs is with the spell list. It is positively boring! What's more, half of it are reactive spells (such as cure or remove) rather than proactive spells. The latter tend to be much more beneficial.
I think I must have been getting the oracle's deaf curse and the monk's vow of silence mixed up some how. When I went to look up some horror stories of how disruptive it could be, it was always the latter, not the former causing the fiascos.
Anyone know how to discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses? j/k :P
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You know what's so much cooler than neat class abilities with associated penalties? Neat class abilities without associated penalties.
Yeah, but the oracle penalties aren't really much to worry about. My wasting winter Orc creeps everyone out with intimidate and still has a decent diplomacy check. And my flame oracles revelations are super awesome.
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Anyone know how do you discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses? j/k :P
Make then role-play their character while wearing a ball gag, welder's mask, and noise-cancelling ear-protectors. :)
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And yes, one of our big beefs is with the spell list. It is positively boring! What's more, half of it are reactive spells (such as cure or remove) rather than proactive spells. The latter tend to be much more beneficial.
I don't know about that. You just need to look harder.
Like I said, low levels are weak. At 1st, you only really have Murderous Command and maybe Burning Disarm if your GM reads it leniently (and in my opinion incorrectly), but second brings Burst of Radiance and Spiritual Weapon. Sound Burst is also pretty solid early on for the stun. Third is another "eh," with Summon Ancestral Guardian (incredible with a rod of dazing), Chains of Perdition (repeated Dirty Tricks every round!), and Bestow Curse.
But once you get to 4th+, I know my 12th level Oracle has laundry lists of spells I wish I could fit into my build. Blessing of Fervor is awesome, Airwalk is almost always better than Fly in my experience, Debilitating Portent, Hallucinogenic Smoke, Stone Shape, Terrible Remorse....
At 5th, you're looking at Plane Shift, Greater Command and Greater Forbid Action, (un)Holy Ice, Wall of Stone....
At 6th, Heal/Harm are straight up nukes, Chains of Light is Reflex based paralysis!
I didn't even mention all the awesome buffs and summons. I don't know, I think if you can't find something to like at the higher spell levels, you're just not looking.
You know what's so much cooler than neat class abilities with associated penalties? Neat class abilities without associated penalties.
And yes, one of our big beefs is with the spell list. It is positively boring! What's more, half of it are reactive spells (such as cure or remove) rather than proactive spells. The latter tend to be much more beneficial.
I think I must have been getting the oracle's deaf curse and the monk's vow of silence mixed up some how. When I went to look up some horror stories of how disruptive it could be, it was always the latter, not the former causing the fiascos.
Anyone know how do you discourage a player who adamantly wants to play a monk/oracle with a Vow of Silence and the Deaf and Clouded Vision curses? j/k :P
You're not entirely wrong about the spell list, but there are certainly gems. The Summon Monster line is awesome. Spiritual Weapon, Spiritual Ally, and Chain of Perdition are cool too.
You also gain some of the best buffs and self-buffs in the game off the Oracle list, which when combined with the right revelations are awesome. There's the level 10 Half Elf Oracle of the Dark Tapestry which can turn into a freaking dragon, giant octopus, or chimera. Slap divine favor on 5 natural attacks a round...
If you dislike the curses that much, just pick Legalistic. The penalty will never activate if you never make a promise.
If you dislike the curses that much, just pick Legalistic. The penalty will never activate if you never make a promise.
That's a fun one to do as an Oradin. The paladin code discourages your from lying anyway, and you can always removed sicken with your mercy.
I did that once and wrote up medical disclaimers I made the party sign to use Life Link (TM) services.
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If you dislike the curses that much, just pick Legalistic. The penalty will never activate if you never make a promise.I've always felt that they created that curse just for all the people that thought that tongues was too much of an inconvenience to deal with.
Actually the curse i really funny.
Words To favorites for.
Lunar oracle with Elf FCB (i believe, Or was it human?) Let to super ramp out your pet to hlarious levels.
Had a discussion with my gaming group the other night about the Oracle class and it would seem that most of us, myself included, have a fairly negative opinion about the class.
It has only one good save, no full base attack bonus, a lackluster spell list, and some pretty severe built-in drawbacks (oracle's curse, which seems really forced). The only things it seems to really have going for it, insofar as we can tell, are a few cool feats (such as Divine Protection, for example) and the fact that you can go really far on just your Charisma score. Even so, it looks to us like those things are simply an attempt to cover for the class' overall weaknesses.
I've made some interesting concept characters with the class (such as Drosil the time lord or Lermos the Death Prophet), but none that I felt surpassed other potential class choices from a mechanical standpoint.
However, if these forums are any indication, there are a great many people out there who think that it is a GREAT class.
What is it that we are missing?
This is exactly how I feel about the cleric. I think it is missing something, the spell list is lackluster in my opinion, and most of the domain abilities suck. Oracle I do like, and while I like the mechanics, it's the flavor of the class I enjoy more.
Most of the curses give better than they take. I just hate the curse for thematic purposes. That a divinely powered class would have a curse it can't remove using its vast magical abilities implies that your deity is just picking on you.
The best thing about the oracle is that it's a full caster able to cover the healer role while being able to handle most of the blaster role as well.
I like to think of an oracle as one who was touched by the gods. The reason for the curse is that the mortal form cannot hold even a tiny fraction of the deific power that comes with being touched by a god. Therefore, you gain a hindrance, but the energy is still divine and directly from a god so it grants abilities as well. That's just how I view it.
I don't get why people are disappointed by the spell list. I just about prefer it, to be honest. What's missing that's so important?
When I was making an Oracle, the gm said the same thing, expressing general displeasure with divines, but when he saw my spells known, he changed his tune, sayimg I was much better with the cleric list than I was. So, maybe it's just a general lack of familiarity? Too many healbots and self-buffing melee types distorting your perception of just how awesome it is?
I don't get why people are disappointed by the spell list. I just about prefer it, to be honest. What's missing that's so important?
When I was making an Oracle, the gm said the same thing, expressing general displeasure with divines, but when he saw my spells known, he changed his tune, sayimg I was much better with the cleric list than I was. So, maybe it's just a general lack of familiarity? Too many healbots and self-buffing melee types distorting your perception of just how awesome it is?
The reason I dislike the spell list is not due to how powerful the spells are, but my own play style. It just doesn't mesh well with how I play. I do still love the oracle, but it's a class I will only play with my core group where we allow third party content to help me flush out the character better. My other group is a little hesitant on 3rd party so I would almost never play it in that group.
To RD
1) Some of us really don't like prepared casters. My previous GM rarely allowed us enough info to pick the 'perfect' spell. The group never wanted to wait while I filled open slots. So I almost always had the same spell list all the time anyway. So my wizard didn't get any of the supposed benefits of the prepared caster.
In that group spontaneous casters are almost always significantly more powerful than prepared casters.
2) Don't get me started on the headache of dealing with filling and carrying spellbooks. Grrr...
3) Some people actually do like the cleric/oracle spell list. I do like the sorc/wiz spell list better, but not all that much. I've never had trouble filling up my list with either support or attack spells I need. Most clerics I've seen almost never prep the condition removal, cure, or odd utility spells anyway. My group just buys a few scrolls for me to use on the rare times they are needed.
4) Less squishy than a sorc. In some groups that is a huge deal.
5) I think the mysteries and revelations are, in general, better than most of the bloodline/school powers. Plus I get to pick and choose from a list of choices. Not stuck with a bunch of lame ones to get the couple of gems.
6) I actually like the curses. They give some odd benefits and add some differentiation to the character.
7) Though some hate it, some love having charisma as the casting stat. I personally, would prefer to use wis or int, but I do know some people love being both the primary caster and the face character.
My undead blasting life oracle was probably one of the most successful characters that I have run through a whole campaign.
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The reason I dislike the spell list is not due to how powerful the spells are, but my own play style. It just doesn't mesh well with how I play. I do still love the oracle, but it's a class I will only play with my core group where we allow third party content to help me flush out the character better. My other group is a little hesitant on 3rd party so I would almost never play it in that group.I don't get why people are disappointed by the spell list. I just about prefer it, to be honest. What's missing that's so important?
When I was making an Oracle, the gm said the same thing, expressing general displeasure with divines, but when he saw my spells known, he changed his tune, sayimg I was much better with the cleric list than I was. So, maybe it's just a general lack of familiarity? Too many healbots and self-buffing melee types distorting your perception of just how awesome it is?
I guess I'd be interested in more detail. What about your play style does it not do? I've seen very few caster concepts that can't be done quite well with the divine list. Though I will definitely admit there are some that are clearly better with the arcane list.
Illusion and polymorph are both notably lacking on the divine list. But the rest of it seems at least moderately well represented.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Huh. I have played the game in some variety or another for over 30 years. I love lots and lots of classes and ideas. The only thing I don't like is gnomes, which has nothing to do with class.
Oracle is absolutely my favorite class. A high level oracle has been my most powerful character, although his build was extravagant.
Oracles have a great spell list: all cleric spells, plus a variety of spells that serve your mystery (which might come from other lists).
Oracles are modular and custom, You can build different types of bone oracles and different types of time oracles.
I just said time oracles.
Oracle is great for multiclassing.
Oracles can fight, can buff, have decent skills, and some can apply direct damage.