I'm currently DMing Rise of the Runelords, and we're going to finish up Chapter 2 tomorrow, most likely; if not tomorrow's session, than the next one.
Something I've really noticed to this point, however, is the players and their characters have enormous rage against the Skinsaw cult and desire to wipe them off the face of the earth completely. I've been looking into ways to do that, and was reading about The Forever Man and his shenanigans.
So, I thought: What better way to have some fun with the party than have them face something like that guy? IIRC (don't have my books right now), he's probably higher level than they are now, so I'll have to tone him down if I do use him, but I wondered if there were any modules that use him/deal with ending him--or a similar villain--or if I'll have to write my own (which I think is the case).
I wanted to ask the experts here if anyone else has dealt with this Bad Dude before, what they did, and especially if anyone has some suggestions for a plot to kill him that I can work with, as I'm fairly new to Pathfinder and Golarion so probably don't have all the lore down yet.
EDIT: I also have access to some older modules from previous editions, too, so I can mine those if someone has a suggestion.
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There are no other canon modules or stories that reference the Skinsaw Cult that I know of.
The Hidden Cult of Norgorber within Magnimar, dedicated to the worship of Norgorber as that "Reaper of Reputation" is led by Staunton Vhane, the Forever Man, who is given in the Magnimar: City of Monuments book as a level Taldan Human 15 Cleric. Not much else is written about him.
Be aware that James Jacobs accidentally used the name Staunton Vhane again in Wrath of the Righteous as a Dwarven NPC, they're not the same person.
As for bringing him down to a place where a level 6~ party can kill him? I wouldn't do it.
EDIT: I feel I should also point out, the Cult of Norgorber is NOT the Skinsaw Cult. They are two different things.
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The Forever Man is okay not using his birth name anymore anyway, so it should all work out there.
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What would the PCs make into believing that after they killed X there's yet more to come? All leads point towards her (and then onwards to her sister... I know), but as the leader of the cult and the one manipulating Ironbriar and having manipulated Aldern Foxglove I think that killing her should convince the PCs of having erradicated the last of the Skinsaw cult.
Otherwise, and if you want to stick with the theme of Runelords, I'd give them a final showdown using one of the pilings of the Irespan (here you could use the resources presented in the first installment of Shattered Star).
James Jacobs wrote: The Forever Man is okay not using his birth name anymore anyway, so it should all work out there. Built-in scrying failure.
Ruyan.
Askren wrote: There are no other canon modules or stories that reference the Skinsaw Cult that I know of.
The Hidden Cult of Norgorber within Magnimar, dedicated to the worship of Norgorber as that "Reaper of Reputation" is led by Staunton Vhane, the Forever Man, who is given in the Magnimar: City of Monuments book as a level Taldan Human 15 Cleric. Not much else is written about him.
Be aware that James Jacobs accidentally used the name Staunton Vhane again in Wrath of the Righteous as a Dwarven NPC, they're not the same person.
As for bringing him down to a place where a level 6~ party can kill him? I wouldn't do it.
EDIT: I feel I should also point out, the Cult of Norgorber is NOT the Skinsaw Cult. They are two different things.
Hm...maybe I misread it. Isn't the Skinsaw cult part of the Cult of Norgorber, more accurately, worshiping him in the guise of Father Skinsaw?
Also, I can't remember reading this, but is the Seven's Sawmill the only real Skinsaw cult in Magnimar, or are there other actual Skinsaws in Magnimar? I know killing Xanesha ends the threat...but that seems so trivial that only a dozen or so cultists in the entire city are members of the Skinsaw, and once they're gone, that's it.
I should mention that the party has stated on multiple occasions that they want to destroy the Skinsaw cult...both in character and out of character, and while chit-chatting before and after sessions. That's what I'm trying to cater to, anyway.
EDIT: Before we began the campaign, I showed them the character hooks in the player's guide, and almost all of them have something to do with the Skinsaw cult in their backstories, and my group never has more fun than when their backstories are included in the adventure somehow.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Seven's Sawmill as the end of the Skinsaw in Magnimar seems...anticlimactic? Is that the word I'm looking for?
Inchoroi wrote: Hm...maybe I misread it. Isn't the Skinsaw cult part of the Cult of Norgorber, more accurately, worshiping him in the guise of Father Skinsaw? Norgorber has a few different guises, and thus different methods of worship. Most people who give reverence to him do not actually worship him as Father Skinsaw, in fact that's kind of an import from Cheliax. But no, the Skinsaw Cult (the Brotherhood of the Seven is their real name) is it's own entity, and not an implicit part of any other Norgorber worship or cults. Most all Norgorber worship doesn't involve murdering people.
Quote: Also, I can't remember reading this, but is the Seven's Sawmill the only real Skinsaw cult in Magnimar, or are there other actual Skinsaws in Magnimar? I know killing Xanesha ends the threat...but that seems so trivial that only a dozen or so cultists in the entire city are members of the Skinsaw, and once they're gone, that's it. Nope. Specifically referenced in the guide Magnimar, City of Monuments is the Brotherhood as "a tightly-knit secret society that worships Norgorber as Father Skinsaw", distinct from the Hidden Cult of Norgorber, a "Master guild of thieves that secretly funds several loosely affiliated gangs in the city above." They are not the same thing at all.
However the Brotherhood of the Seven is the only "Skinsaw cult" in Magnimar, I suppose you could use that wording. Meaning yes, they are the only group who worships Norgorber as Father Skinsaw and murders people for that cause.
Quote: I should mention that the party has stated on multiple occasions that they want to destroy the Skinsaw cult...both in character and out of character, and while chit-chatting before and after sessions. That's what I'm trying to cater to, anyway. It might be worthwhile to introduce them to the Hidden Cult of Norgorber specifically so they can learn that Norgorber worship is not like, inherently evil, and while they may be a little morally-ambiguous, not all people who venerate Norgorber are murdering fanatics.
Quote: I guess what I'm saying is that the Seven's Sawmill as the end of the Skinsaw in Magnimar seems...anticlimactic? Is that the word I'm looking for? The real ending of Skinsaw Murders was supposed to be the Misgivings Manor, but no one writing the book realized this so they accidentally put it in the middle.
Askren wrote: The real ending of Skinsaw Murders was supposed to be the Misgivings Manor, but no one writing the book realized this so they accidentally put it in the middle. Yeah, I got that impression, too.
Maybe I can do something with going after the Brothers of the Seven, then...
Who are the Brothers of the Seven? I know that Justice Ironbriar is one, but who are the others? Maybe I'll have to group target them instead, so they can get their lust for wiping out the cult done.
Damn not being able to bring my books to work...
Maybe give each of them their own cult members; a la the Seven's Sawmill was just Ironbriar's minions, and the others are now going to target the group, to make their lives difficult and end them for Father Skinsaw.
Inchoroi wrote: Who are the Brothers of the Seven? I know that Justice Ironbriar is one, but who are the others? Unknown, this is never covered in any sourcebooks. The only information we have is that Justice Ironbriar is the current leader, and that he took over for Vorel Foxglove when Vorel disappeared (he died in the process of attempting to become a Lich in Misgivings Manor's underground). The actual cult of the Brotherhood of the Seven as a branch that broke off from a larger group in Cheliax decades ago and has kind of turned into it's own thing.
Though as the Runelords books seem to indicate, the Brotherhood of the Seven is referred to as some larger entity, seemingly run by some council of important people living double-lives, but when actually engaged it seems to mostly be some random cultists run by Ironbriar, with no other leadership or heirarchy.
If you want to build it up into a much bigger entity, run by a council of actual, powerful people stationed around Magnimar in secret, much like Ironbriar, that is perfectly do-able, it just seems like it would be something that would take a long time to uncover and deal with, and not really just a thing to wrap up at the end of the book.
Askren wrote: Inchoroi wrote: Who are the Brothers of the Seven? I know that Justice Ironbriar is one, but who are the others? Unknown, this is never covered in any sourcebooks. The only information we have is that Justice Ironbriar is the current leader, and that he took over for Vorel Foxglove when Vorel disappeared (he died in the process of attempting to become a Lich in Misgivings Manor's underground). The actual cult of the Brotherhood of the Seven as a branch that broke off from a larger group in Cheliax decades ago and has kind of turned into it's own thing.
Though as the Runelords books seem to indicate, the Brotherhood of the Seven is referred to as some larger entity, seemingly run by some council of important people living double-lives, but when actually engaged it seems to mostly be some random cultists run by Ironbriar, with no other leadership or heirarchy.
If you want to build it up into a much bigger entity, run by a council of actual, powerful people stationed around Magnimar in secret, much like Ironbriar, that is perfectly do-able, it just seems like it would be something that would take a long time to uncover and deal with, and not really just a thing to wrap up at the end of the book. I appreciate you putting up with the noob questions...
Yeah, its looking like this'll be a bigger detour than originally thought, but they're so gung ho about it, so I'll give it a try.
So, I need to
1. Identify the other six members of the Brotherhood of the Seven; is it ever explained why they call themselves that, or is it a safe trope that there were originally seven members? Maybe five now, since Vorel died decades ago. That also seems to imply that these individuals are longer-lived than average, so humans might be out completely.
I can assume its never written up in any books dealing with Cheliax, is it? I know I don't have any of those...I'll have to see if my old DM has them, in that case.
2. Build a plot around them; they'd definitely want to target the party, because the party will be out to get them as it is. I had wanted to include one of the character's past friends as a brain-washed patsy or other minion, to provide some closure on that plot thread he presented when he made the character (I had mentioned to him the Skinsaw Cult before I had bought the Magnimar book, and he ran with it).
Two more hours until I get home...
Inchoroi wrote: is it ever explained why they call themselves that, or is it a safe trope that there were originally seven members? Maybe five now, since Vorel died decades ago. That also seems to imply that these individuals are longer-lived than average, so humans might be out completely. Nope, the origin of the name is never explained. Vorel Foxglove was a human.
Quote: I can assume its never written up in any books dealing with Cheliax, is it? I just checked the Cheliax, Empire of Devils companion book, and there does not seem to be any mention of Norgorber or Skinsaw in the book at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, Vyre (the city the cult is said to originate in) does not actually exist on the Cheliax map at all.
If you intend to construct a plot involving the Skinsaw cult that is the Brotherhood of the Seven, you may way to reference the Inner Sea Gods book, as well as mostly similar information in Faiths of Corruption. Since this is an area where information is scarce and will have to be written, you want to make sure you understand the specific details about Norgorber, who he is, his various incarnations and forms of worship, and how and why the Skinsaw aspect of him differs from normal worship, and then from there delve into how and why a coalition of powerful individuals might meet in secret to venerate this particular aspect of the god in the form of murder.
Askren wrote: Inchoroi wrote: is it ever explained why they call themselves that, or is it a safe trope that there were originally seven members? Maybe five now, since Vorel died decades ago. That also seems to imply that these individuals are longer-lived than average, so humans might be out completely. Nope, the origin of the name is never explained. Vorel Foxglove was a human.
Quote: I can assume its never written up in any books dealing with Cheliax, is it? I just checked the Cheliax, Empire of Devils companion book, and there does not seem to be any mention of Norgorber or Skinsaw in the book at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, Vyre (the city the cult is said to originate in) does not actually exist on the Cheliax map at all.
If you intend to construct a plot involving the Skinsaw cult that is the Brotherhood of the Seven, you may way to reference the Inner Sea Gods book, as well as mostly similar information in Faiths of Corruption. Since this is an area where information is scarce and will have to be written, you want to make sure you understand the specific details about Norgorber, who he is, his various incarnations and forms of worship, and how and why the Skinsaw aspect of him differs from normal worship, and then from there delve into how and why a coalition of powerful individuals might meet in secret to venerate this particular aspect of the god in the form of murder.
Thanks, Askren! Those books should be helpful, if I can get a hold of them for a couple minutes. I'll have to go visit my old DM to get a look at them.
However, I had an epiphany, which I think might work out better. Its certainly a shorter plot than before, but has a fun little twist to give them some fun stuff to do.
This would take some work, but put them into book 3 -- the PCs go up to Turtleback Ferry to investigate rumors, or track down maps/letters/info from Xanesha's lair. They find the gambling boat still there, and several of the Brothers of the Seven on board for their meeting. Lucrezia, Xanesha (if she survived), and 2-3 other characters you make up.
It always seemed to me that that boat would have made an amazing place for an intrigue-based adventure...
FWIW I always thought the Skinsaw Cult in Magnimar was a bit of an abberation. Nearly all other worshipers of Norgorber as Father Skinsaw would be solitary psychopathic serial killers. Getting a bunch of those to work together and share methodology can't have been easy as my (limited) understanding is that not only do most of them have a way of killing that is intensely personal, but also they are not stupid and know that what they are doing is perceived as wrong by others and secrecy is survival. Every other person that knows is a weak link.
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