| amyhart420 |
Okay first I would like to say I know that the final ruling is what the GM says, no matter what. I just would like to know what other GMs would do in this position.
Okay so I recently started a campaign on Roll20.net. For those who don't know, when doing this the most common way to find players is to open a listing and wait for applications. I did this and clearly stated that no third party items were to be used. An interested player asked if advanced races were allowed and I said yes any races from official Pazio were allowed. I had not noticed at the time he actually filed his application to join, but at the end of the week when I was selecting my players I noticed that he applied a custom race. It was too late for me to give him a chance to change it since I needed to select players then in order to give them a chance to fill out full character sheets, so I had to deny his application due to the custom race.
He was mad about it and called me a hypocrite for saying I allowed advanced races but didn't allow his character since he used the point rank system to match an advanced race.
The point rank system is an official Pazio system and his character race did fit in the advanced races under this system, but when I had referred to advanced races I had only known about the ones listed here. {http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20- rp}
So I want to know what would you, as a GM, done in this case? Would you have reconsidered his character? Do you see my choice as hypocritical?
Any feedback is appreciated.
| Guardianlord |
Well the page says custom races are for GM's and players with GM oversight. As such anything created by a player should reasonably be expected to be vetted by the GM prior to acceptance. And while it is first party Paizo, custom races are more like 1.5 party content, it is easy to abuse the point system to create terrible monsters with laughable penalties for amazing strengths.
If they wanted a custom race, they should have said "I am not going to use the approved, pre designed list of playable first party races, instead I am going to use the GM tool to make my own. After which you will vet and permit or deny based on it's relation to core races and the story (or AP) as appropriate."
He could have easily used advanced monster races as PC's, still first party but also not generally allowed by GM's.
Also this should go in a different forum than Rules.
| Aleron |
You made a mistake due to the terminology involved. No big deal. Advanced races on the srd and making yourself a custom advanced race are two very separate things, though.
Personally, due to the mixup being on my part I would have given him the chance to resubmit following the rules as laid out with no custom built race. Wouldn't be fair to the other players if I allowed him as the only one with a custom one. Would reconsider his character if changed to fit the criteria though.
Wasn't hypocritical. Just a mistake.
| Protoman |
Custom races aren't Paizo races even if made via Advanced Race Guide optional race point system. He should have told you about the race specifics ahead of time. The race point system allows one to build boat load of stuff most GMs won't allow, and ones that do, definitely would want to look them over first. If a GM says "advanced races allowed" most people would assume races from the Advanced Race Guide, not "make up whatever you want using rules in the Advanced Race Guide".
| chbgraphicarts |
The RP system is cute, but potentially EXTREMELY abusable, and existing races don't necessarily deserve their rankings based on RP.
Case in point, the Wyvaran race's most-powerful feature is that it has a fly speed of 30ft (Clumsy).
That very, very quickly becomes a moot point as other methods of flight come to pass; much better than a Clumsy rating at that.
Everything else is basically on-par with an Elf, as the Wyvaran's Dragon Creature Type grant it very-similar immunities and senses.
Yet the Wyvaran is a 17 RP race, while the Elf is considered 10 RP with a whole host of more abilities than the Wyvaran, including Weapon Familiarity.
To add insult to injury, the Aasimar, a heinously more-powerful race with the option of counting as a HUMAN of all things for prerequisites and effects, is 15 RP.
And then there're Drow... Drow have 14 RP and are quite possibly one of, if not THE, most powerful race available to players.
All Advanced Races are not created equal.
I don't allow custom-made races in my games, although my group has never really had a problem with that.
There are over 30 Races in the PRD alone ranging from 0 RP to 20, and very many of those races have alternate racial features to customize those races to your needs.
There's almost no reason players should ever absolutely HAVE to make an entirely-new race, or at the least they should have you oversee it's creation, rather than simply present you with a sheet that has a final tally to it.
| LuxuriantOak |
This sounds like either a classic case of miscommunication or, a peeved player that thought he could sneak one by you.
When you said yes to the advanced races you must have meant: "yes, all races that paizo have made and said can be played"
While he either though or wanted to belive that you meant: "yes, all races paizo have made and said can be played. you can also make your own using the books"
Now, reason for the vetting of characters you do is (I'm guessing) so you can make sure that they fit each other/the theme/the setting and that nobody made any mistakes(/cheated).
If I wanted to play with you and made and elf gunslinger, you would know what that race and class can do and you would easily make a ruling if you'll allow it (some people don't like gunslinger and don't allow them) and that would be fair.
But if I said I was making a 'Flem Magus' your first qustion might be "What the hell is a 'Flem'?"
And I would answer that it's a race of four-armed swordspeople that have +4 to int AND dex, a +2 to natural AC, and a pile of immunities and some DR on top, and they also have a very complicated backstory involving different planets, skyships, comsmic territorial wars and a made up caste system that is to complicated for it's own good.
At which point your reaction would possible range from "get the f+*~ out of here!" to "this is a local LOTR-inspired fantasy game, not a cosmic john carter-rippoff, also I think those stats are Op, make something else please (You bloody twink)"
tl;dr I don't think you're a hypocrite, he either misunderstood you or is pouting because he couldn't sneak his ubermench into the game. It's a shame that the possible misunderstanding led to that he couldn't play but sometimes accidents happen and you seem to have no intention to 'sabotage' his participation.
| Bob Bob Bob |
Welcome to the wonderful wide world of the English language. Spend enough time trying to write something clearly and precisely with it and you'll soon know true hatred. I'm only half joking.
If what you said was correct (and since this is roll20 it's presumably in text you can check and not memories which are faulty) then you said that races from Paizo were fine. Races made using tools provided by Paizo are not the same thing as "races from Paizo". Not even close.
Lastly, the end of the first paragraph of the Race Builder section is "The following rules allow GMs, or even players with GM oversight, to create new races that are balanced and mesh with the core races." Bolding mine. So, at a minimum, they needed to run it past you well before the game got close to starting.
| Trekkie90909 |
I've run into this problem countless times on Roll20 (although I have no life, so I usually see their posts earlier in the week).
A) The player is exploitative. They assumed that by saying 'advanced race' you would think 'featured/uncommon' race and approve it. They did not specify they wanted to make a custom race, so really the problem lies with them.
B) "races from official Paizo," is assumed to mean published races. If you want to use the race builder (optional content) it has to be expressly approved.
C) Tantrums are a sign to kick/deny a player. 100%. Don't lose sleep over this, you did the right thing.
| amyhart420 |
Sorry about posting the the wrong section. Is there anyway I can move it or does a mod have to do it?
Thank-you all who replied. I'm glad to know that I'm not alone in thinking that my actions were fine. I was going to offer the player the chance to redo his character and play as an alternate if someone dropped out or missed a game, but after I pointed out that the custom races stated that they should be discussed with the GM before creation is when he called me a hypocrite and said he didn't want to play with me anyways.
The biggest thing that actually bothered me about it is that even when he applied with the character, he never gave any details about it other then "12-20 PR Custom race, same PR value as the Advanced Races". I believe this one line was added during an Edit that was made later which is why I believe I missed it when I read his application. But even then I would have had no information to even judge whether it was a decent race or not.
Thank-you all again for settling my worries that I made the wrong choice.
| kestral287 |
Yeah... that's a blatant attempt to cheese the system and then throwing a b@+$~fit when he got caught. No. I would have shown him the door in an instant.
"12-20 PR Custom race" realistically means "exactly 20 points Custom race", which also means "broken as f%#$".
You only need eight points (flexible bonus feat, advanced stat array) to create something strictly better than basically any existing race. Another twelve points on top of that means that balance just ceases to exist.
| Torbyne |
Adding onto the pile, the race builder should not be used without an extreme level of trust. Like allowing him to take your teenage daughter on a secluded camping trip level trust. Dont feel bad if someone dropped a custom race on you without any input or consoltation on what the race was. And this is all from a mecanics point of view. Did he expect you to pick up and run with a whole new race in your campaign? Was he going to be a only of his kind lonely monster thing?
| Felyndiira |
You only need eight points (flexible bonus feat, advanced stat array) to create something strictly better than basically any existing race. Another twelve points on top of that means that balance just ceases to exist.
Just a random comment, but you actually only need six points (static bonus feat, advanced stat array). If you're cherry-picking the race builder, there's no real advantage of having a flexible bonus feat vs. a fixed one that you can choose anyway.
A few samples of what someone can build with the race builder, though, and why you're definitely justified in banning him:
Sorcerer/Oracle God (20 RP)
Advanced Stat Array (4 RP)
Advanced Charisma (4 RP, 5 RP, 6 RP)
Lucky (1 RP)
Nets you +10 Racial Bonus to Charisma (and +2 to all physical stats) as well as a +1 to all saving throws.
*
"Super Half-Elf" (20 RP)
Advanced Stat Array (4 RP)
At-Will SLA [Paragon Surge] (6 RP)
Static Bonus Feat (2 RP)
Flight (4 RP)
Natural Attacks:
- Gore (1 RP)
- Talons (1 RP)
- Slam (1 RP)
- Wings (1 RP)
Nets you paragon surge as a SLA so you can have free flexibility, as well as an advanced stat array and six natural weapon attacks in addition to your normal melee. Plus, flight.
| ElterAgo |
First: Made a mistake is not the same as hypocrite.
Second: I would say that it would generally be understood by most people that 'advanced races' does not mean you can make up whatever you want. Having said that, I can see where the confusion might have arisen. I have met a very few people (including a GM) that have thought 'any paizo source' obviously meant they could use the custom race builder rules, the custom magic item crafting rules, the custom spell rules, etc...
Third: I will always try to be more specific on exactly what I am allowing and what I am not. (The engineer in me.) I will have a statement like:
ARG races from the core, featured, and uncommon sections are allowed except the Aasimar, Tiefling, Wayang, Samsaran, and Fetchling.
Other monster races might be allowed but only if specifically cleared by me well ahead of game day.
Custom races from the race builder will not be allowed unless created by me with input from the player.
Fourth: Now if I were in your situation, where I would feel that it might have been partially my fault, I would have given him a day to remake it and just sent an apology to the everyone for the delay.
| Dave Justus |
In a case like this, I would have said a prayer of thanks to any and all applicable deities that this person showed what a jerk they were before the game started, not during when it would be truly disruptive.
Most players with these kind of social problems have developed a low cunning that allows them to pass for decent human beings at least until a game has already started, lucky for you this one hasn't acquired that skill yet so you were able to detect him early.
| Arachnofiend |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
At this point I'm just echoing but you absolutely made the right decision here. The fact that he threw a pissbaby fit about it is proof that this was not a simple misunderstanding and that he was trying to pull the wool over your head. If he had reacted differently then maybe you could have given him a brief opportunity to rebuild, but he did not so you should not.
| kestral287 |
kestral287 wrote:You only need eight points (flexible bonus feat, advanced stat array) to create something strictly better than basically any existing race. Another twelve points on top of that means that balance just ceases to exist.Just a random comment, but you actually only need six points (static bonus feat, advanced stat array). If you're cherry-picking the race builder, there's no real advantage of having a flexible bonus feat vs. a fixed one that you can choose anyway.
Depends on what you need. Fixed can't have any pre-reqs, which hurts a lot of what people tend to use those for. If the feat you have in mind doesn't have pre-reqs, then yes, six points for Fixed is better. But using that means I can't use the 'strictly better' line, because there would still be a real edge to going Human.
| Gwen Smith |
From an intellectual property perspective, if a custom race made using Paizo's rules is "Paizo content", then Paizo could technically claim ownership of any concept built using their ruleset. So unless he intends to give Paizo the copyright on every character or race he's ever created for Pathfinder, things built using Paizo's rules do not count as "Paizo content."
| amyhart420 |
The class he had listed was "Archanist (with wizard/sorcerer splash)" Not sure if he was just listing the 2 classes that make up Arcanist or if he was trying to pull something else there.
Third: I will always try to be more specific on exactly what I am allowing and what I am not. (The engineer in me.) I will have a statement like:
ARG races from the core, featured, and uncommon sections are allowed except the Aasimar, Tiefling, Wayang, Samsaran, and Fetchling.
Other monster races might be allowed but only if specifically cleared by me well ahead of game day.
Custom races from the race builder will not be allowed unless created by me with input from the player.Fourth: Now if I were in your situation, where I would feel that it might have been partially my fault, I would have given him a day to remake it and just sent an apology to the everyone for the delay.
This was actually the first time I've ever accepted anything other then core rulebook, but I've definitely learn that next time I need to be very specific like such.
And the issue with that came down to that I had over 40 applicants and only 6 slots to pick from, with acceptance being on the tuesday before the game friday. So giving him a day's wait to possibly reply, which he didn't actually reply until 26 hours after I sent the PM with the deny, would have cut down on a lot of valuable time for everyone. I personally spent over 6 hours sending each applicant a PM to explain whether or not they were excepted and why. Out of everyone the only 2 complaints I had was him and another player who's class was not decipherable from his mini bio and he had left the class question off of the application. The second player only complained because I had a brain fart and put that he was missing his race not his class, but after I apologized and explained he understood and was fine with it.
| Scott Wilhelm |
I don't think that "advanced race" implies "custom race." I understand his disappointment, but I think he should have known better and hopefully now does. It's a shame he didn't have a chance to fix it and say, "okay, fine, I'll be a Catfolk (or whatever) instead." And maybe you could have handled that better, but you don't owe him anything. It's your game, invite anyone or no one as you want.
he called me a hypocrite and said he didn't want to play with me anyways.
He did you a favor. I don't think he was every going to be a positive addition to your campaign.
| Rub-Eta |
He was mad about it and called me a hypocrite for saying I allowed advanced races but didn't allow his character since he used the point rank system to match an advanced race.
This is probably why he isn't playing at a table with his friends.
First: I don't think that those rules are supposed to be used by players but rather DMs. I wouldn't consider those rules as "paizo offical races".Second: This world is full of idiots, when someone proves this aggressively that giving them the benefit of the doubt may be a waste of time, they're probably a waste of time. Don't bother, move along, you don't want this player anyway, he have proven this him self and the problem isn't his custom race anymore.
EDIT: It's a bit like if a DM allow Drows in their game and then a player gets pissed because "you didn't say that I couln't play a NOBLE drow!".
| Gregory Connolly |
I really wouldn't worry about it.
You are running games that have like 6 players that don't get in for every 1 that does. I think you must be doing something right. If there is that much demand for a game it really doesn't matter why a given character is rejected, there were six I liked better is a perfectly legitimate reason. It doesn't sound like an enviable position to turn away that many people.