Couple of questions have come up recently. I said I would check with the folks on the boards.
3646) Barbarian has successfully grappled a guy in plate armor. They are now standing in the square right on the edge of the deep water pier. Barbarian wants to just fall over backwards into the water with the tank (assumes he would need to focus all efforts on not drowning). Group eventually ruled it was a reposition maneuver (which failed) but the play felt falling over backward should not require any kind of check or should at least be ridiculously easy. What would be the ‘correct’ way to handle this.
3647) A particular PC (warpriest actually) has 3 different swift action buffs. Can he:
Take the normal swift action buff, use his move action for a swift action buff, then use his standard action for a swift action buff, to get a total of 3 buffs in the first round?
(It really was a situation where he didn’t want to actually do anything else for that round since the wizard and druid were area blasting).
If you succeed on a grapple check, on the next round, if you successfully maintain the grapple you can move your opponent without an additional check.
You cannot substitute swift actions in place of move or standard actions. You only get one swift action in a round.
3646) From CRB under grapple: "Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus."
3647) From CRB under swift action: You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
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A grapple is more akin to grabbing someones arm than a fancy wrestling move. So for your 1st question, I'd consider it doable via the move option once the grapple has continued into the second round if the grapple continuation succeeds.
For your second question. Swift actions are swift actions. They can't be swapped into move or standard actions. In a homebrew game, I would allow using a swift action in a standard action slot (Otherwise, a wizard can't cast a quickened magic missile in a standard, but he cast a normal magic missile spell.) I wouldn't extend the same consideration to a movement slot though. Regardless, there are no rules to back this interpretation, so as written, you can't exchange actions.
Thanks folks!
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... However, there's nothing stopping him from casting a second buff with his standard action which will let him get two buffs on in the round.
That is what he ended up doing, but he would have preferred having all 3 swift actions on the first round.
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I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.
Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
I think that having more ways to take advantage of environmental hazards would help make the game more dynamic. Maybe Paizo figured that if you could Reposition people off a cliff/balcony/tower or into a furnace/circular saw/set of grinding gears then the various Bull Rush feats would lose some of their already limited charm though.
Thanks for pointing out the Tactical Reposition feat. Investing 3-4 feats in the hope that the DM will throw you some hazardous terrain once in a while seems pretty risky, but it might be fun for a team with an AoE caster and a "pusher" who puts people back into the affected area.
I just need to remember that Wall of Fire never, ever works out as planned. Maybe Sirocco could be fun though.
Sorry, but did I miss something? He should not had been able to take two swift actions in one round, as The Crusader, Nawtyit and Grey_Mage already have pointed out.
Take your Move and Swift Actions as normal and then Ready another Swift Action. A 'Readied Action' is a Standard Action. So now you've buffed yourself twice by using your Swift and your Standard.
Readying an action is a Standard Action regardless of whether the action I am performing normally requires a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free.
For example, dropping an item I am holding is a Free Action. If I Ready to drop the item in the event that X occurs, then when X occurs, I am dropping the item as a Standard Action, not a Free Action.
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Sorry, you cannot take more than one swift action a turn, so you could ready, but when the ready triggered, you would already have used your swift, so can't do it.
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
When I Ready an action, the action that I am Readying now becomes a Standard Action. It doesn't matter if the action I am Readying can normally be performed as a Standard, a Move, a Swift, or a Free action. It is now a Standard Action that I am performing.
If I Ready a Standard Action, then I am performing a Standard Action.
If I Ready a Move Action, then I am performing a Standard Action.
If I Ready a Swift Action, then I am performing a Standard Action.
If I Ready a Free Action, then I am performing a Standard Action.
So on my turn I can perform:
as many Free Actions as the GM allows,
a single Swift Action,
a Move Action,
and
as my Standard Action any Readied Standard, Move, Swift, or Free Action.
Now suppose the GM house-rules a limit on Free Actions to 3 per turn and I have already:
Ceased concentration on a spell,
Dropped an item,
and
Spoken.
I can still Ready an action to Drop to the floor, because 'Dropping to the floor' is now being performed as a Standard action.
I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
This tight-fitting garment of fine silk has thin bone ribbing sewn into it. Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability. The shirt must be worn for 24 hours before this ability can be used.
This item would be useless for this situation.
Contributor
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I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
This tight-fitting garment of fine silk has thin bone ribbing sewn into it. Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability. The shirt must be worn for 24 hours before this ability can be used.
This item would be useless for this situation.
A teleportation-school wizard could use it to Shift. ^_^
A teleportation-school wizard could use it to Shift. ^_^I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
This tight-fitting garment of fine silk has thin bone ribbing sewn into it. Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability. The shirt must be worn for 24 hours before this ability can be used.
This item would be useless for this situation.
Since Warpriest's don't get school access, that's kind of a non-point xD
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Since Warpriest's don't get school access, that's kind of a non-point xDA teleportation-school wizard could use it to Shift. ^_^I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
This tight-fitting garment of fine silk has thin bone ribbing sewn into it. Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability. The shirt must be worn for 24 hours before this ability can be used.
This item would be useless for this situation.
Sorry - the post you were responding to said "arcane caster". The warpriest could be VMC'd, though. Unlikely, but possible.
A warpriest could use it to fervor herself some healing or activate sacred weapon.
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I would direct him to Melee Tactics Toolbox which has an invaluable item for Swift action buffers (such as my Mesmerist):
The Corset of Delicate Moves.Unfortunately it has a limit of once a day, but converting that move action that the arcane caster doesn't want to take into another swift is amazing against the BBEG.
This tight-fitting garment of fine silk has thin bone ribbing sewn into it. Once per day as a move action, the wearer can take an additional swift action. This swift action can’t be used to cast a spell or spell-like ability. The shirt must be worn for 24 hours before this ability can be used.
This item would be useless for this situation.
(Jumping on the previous post with more detail)
Good thing Warpriest is heavily Su abilities - as a swift action he could Fervor Heal, Fervor Cast, Channel (if he has swift channeling), Sacred Weapon or Sacred Armor, in addition to any non-core class abilities (Battle Cry types, perhaps).
And I said Arcane caster just because that's been my experience in using it - my Sorcerer loves it and my Mesmerist (actually Psychic, but same style) has one as well.
No, you can ready a Swift or a Move as a Standard action, but they are still Swift and Move Actions. Where do it says that they *become* a Standard Action? Nowhere. They remain the action type they were, although it costs you a Standard Action to ready them.
Remember the difference between *as a* and *become*.
EDIT: Eldebor, you are confusing the cost of readying an action with the type of the action readied. The cost is a Standard Action, but they action type of the readied action remains unchanged.
The rule of "one single action per turn" goes further, saying that if you use an immediate action, you can't use your swift action for the next turn. So no, there is no regular way to perform two or more swift actions per turn.
Following your logic you would never be able to perform a readied standard action because the act of readying is a standard and then the action you perform is also still standard action of its own.
For example, if I ready an action to make a melee attack against an enemy that comes within 5' of me. According to you the act of readying is a standard action. Suppose then Mr. Toothymaw the Orc runs in to attack me with his great axe. When he gets within five feet my readied action triggers, but wait according to your argument I have no standard actions left because I used my standard action to ready.
The type of action being readied only matters for determining if you can ready it in the first place. It doesn't matter what type the action normally is for whether you can perform it after the trigger.
I had a long-winded response, but I scrapped it because it all boils down to this:
How many Standard Actions am I allowed in a turn? Answer: 1. We all know this.
If I use my Standard Action to cast a spell, do I get another Standard for that turn? Answer: No. So far no argument.
If I use Quicken Spell to turn that Standard Spell into a Swift Spell, do I still get a Standard Action for that turn? Answer: Yes. I believe we all agree on this?
See where this is going? Now apply the same logic and reverse the order.
How many Swift Actions are you allowed in a turn? Answer: 1. We all know this too.
If I use my Swift Action to cast a spell, do I get another Swift for that turn? Answer: No. No argument still?
If I use Ready to turn that Swift Spell into a Standard Spell, do I still get a Swift Action for that turn? Answer: Yes.
If Readying a Swift Action as a Standard Action still counts as a Swift Action for purposes of how many you can do in a turn, then Quickening a Standard Action as a Swift Action still counts as a Standard Action for purposes of how many you can do in a turn.
Make sense? (Maybe someone else can explain it better)
Sorry - the post you were responding to said "arcane caster". The warpriest could be VMC'd, though. Unlikely, but possible.
A warpriest could use it to fervor herself some healing or activate sacred weapon.
makes sense and is useful anyway you split it, the warpriest is one of the most swift action starved classes anyhow
It's not flawed at all. You're simply not understanding the difference between an "Action" (what you do) and "Action Economy" (how long it takes to do that thing).
You get 1 Standard and 1 Swift action on your turn. What action does it take to cast a Quickened Spell? It takes a Swift action. Great, so now you still have your Standard free. What action does it take to Ready? It takes a Standard action. Great, so now you still have your Swift free.
Stop over-thinking this. Readying an action uses up your Standard action. It doesn't use up both the Standard action and the Standard/Move/Swift/Free action that normally is required. Otherwise as was pointed out, you could never Ready a Standard action because that would then count as 2 for the turn...which you aren't allowed.
If I want to cast a Quickened Fireball, I use my Swift even though casting Fireball is a Standard. It works the exact same way with Ready. Readying is a Standard action. It doesn't matter if the action normally takes a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free to perform. Performing it as a Ready is now a Standard.
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Elbedor, you are dead wrong. It's a standard action to ready yourself to perform your swift action. But you can't perform that action if it's impossible. And since you've already performed a swift action... you just wasted a standard action preparing to do a second swift - which you can't do.
It works differently than performing two standard actions in a turn - there's no rule saying you can't perform multiple standard actions... if you have the actions available to take them. You just normally don't.
There IS a rule forbidding you from taking two swift actions. This rule is necessary because swift actions are free actions - just with the added "once per turn only" restriction.
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And? That sentence tells you what you are allowed to ready, which does not mean that you can ready it if you have already used it.
Likewise if I had used my Standard action on a given turn, I won't be able to ready another Standard, the same is true for a Swift.
EDIT: actually, if I have used my Standard, I won't be able to ready anything. But no, the rule of one single Swift action per turn can't be overruled with a ready action.
I'm sorry, (and I'm sorry to everyone else if this has already been pointed out as I haven't clicked on this thread since my last post) but your logic is heavily flawed.
Readying an action is its own standard action. By your logic, you can no longer ready a standard action because you have already used up your standard action trying to ready something.
It's a standard action to ready yourself to perform your swift action.
I can understand how you arrive at this interpretation, but the rules don't say this. They only say Readying is a Standard action. Anything more you are reading into it.
- there's no rule saying you can't perform multiple standard actions...
I'm not sure why you would think that.
In a normal round, you can perform A standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
The rule is quite clear that you cannot take more than 1 Standard action on your turn. And since that's true, as claudekennilol points out, by your reasoning you would never be able to Ready a Standard action. Readying is a Standard action. Since you've just performed the only Standard action allowed to you for the turn, you then can't actually DO the action since it TOO is a Standard action.
This is exactly how you are thinking about Readying a Swift.
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The biggest problem with the logic is this: I ready a swift action in the form of 'If someone moves, Then I will take a swift action' to start freely converting Standard actions to Swift actions, which we all know is not correct.
I understand the rules don't seem clear to you, but readying a Standard costs a Standard. Readying a Swift will cost both the Swift and the Standard. It's not efficient because of the benefit - you're shifting your initiative and building in a contingency.
Readying is the action and you can ready any type of action and use it outside of the normal sequence of actions per round.
I understand the rules don't seem clear to you, but readying a Standard costs a Standard. Readying a Swift will cost both the Swift and the Standard.
The rules aren't clear to me? I'm not the one suggesting Ready costs more than a Standard. You apparently are though. No idea why.
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I understand the rules don't seem clear to you, but readying a Standard costs a Standard. Readying a Swift will cost both the Swift and the Standard.The rules aren't clear to me? I'm not the one suggesting Ready costs more than a Standard. You apparently are though. No idea why.
You are purposely limited in the amount of Swift actions you can take, they cannot be converted. The problem with claiming that taking a Standard Action to ready a Swift is that I can set a condition to immediately trigger my Ready, giving me an extra swift action.
Order of operations:
I know that the barbarian goes after me and will likely take a move action.
My turn begins.
I take a swift action - as a Warpriest, I Fervor heal myself.
I want to Battle Cry my allies, because the saving throw reroll is great, but no longer have a Swift action to do so.
I Ready using my Standard - I will Battle Cry (Swift) when the Barbarian moves.
My turn ends.
The Barbarian moves.
My Ready goes off, interrupting him, I get a free Swift action and my initiative does not move.
Do you see the problem with the action economy? It allows you to convert a Standard to a Swift, which while that is allowed in other systems, is not in Pathfinder.
You are purposely limited in the amount of Swift actions you can take, they cannot be converted.
I am not converting anything in the Action Economy. I am using RAW and RAI to perform an activity using the Actions given to me.
I am not taking a Standard to ready a Swift. I am spending a Standard to perform an action that otherwise requires a Standard, Move, Swift, or Free to do as the Ready action allows. Loading a crossbow with a Move or Rapid Reloading it with a Free; both involve loading the crossbow (which is the action), but the Economy requirement differs depending on how specific rules interact with the general rules. I cannot take more than a Swift action out of the Action Economy. I am not doing so as you seem to claim I am.
The problem with claiming that taking a Standard Action to ready a Swift is that I can set a condition to immediately trigger my Ready, giving me an extra swift action.
That is the problem you're having right there. I am not arbitrarily declaring that I'm taking my Standard to use my Swift. I am Readying an action and that action now requires a Standard to perform. Again you are confusing "Actions" that people perform with the "Action Economy". They are different things.
Order of operations:
I know that the barbarian goes after me and will likely take a move action.
My turn begins.
I take a swift action - as a Warpriest, I Fervor heal myself.
I want to Battle Cry my allies, because the saving throw reroll is great, but no longer have a Swift action to do so.
I Ready using my Standard - I will Readied Battle Cry (Standard) when the Barbarian moves.
My turn ends.
The Barbarian moves.
My Ready goes off, interrupting him, I get my Standard action and my initiative does not move.
First off the bold fixed the issue for you.
Second, you're still reading into the rules what's not there. You are allowed a Standard, a Move, and a Swift. In the example above you have performed the Swift and the Standard. There is no conflict.
There are two groups debating here.
First group claim that they can ready, after performing a swift action on a given turn, another swift action, and perform it before their next turn.
The second group claims they can't perform more than a swift action on a given turn.
There is a rule that supports group 2 -under Swift Actions rules- and reads "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. "
I would like to see any written rule that opposes -as an exception- this mentioned rule above and give group 1 some credibility. Do not bring interpretations and opinions, we all have some of those.
EDIT: and again, although many others and myself tried to explain to you before; readying is a standard, but the readied action does not change its type; if you readied a free, is still a free when you take it, if you ready a move, is still a move when you take it, if you readied a standard, is still a standard when you take it, and last but not least, if you readied a swift, is still a swift when you take it. Nowhere in the rules says the action taken changes its type, only that you need a standard action to prepare it, which, I believe, we all here agree.
No one in group two has explained how you can ever ready a standard action, without the benefit of a haste or similar spell giving you an extra standard. I gave an explicit example of reading an action to attack and opponent that comes within your reach. It was ignored because it does not fit the narrative that actions retain their type when readied.
Here are the rules for readying an action
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Here are the rules for how many actions you get in a normal round, i.e. without haste, feats or some other effect.
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
In a normal round you get 1 Standard, 1 Move, 1 Swift, and as many free actions as the GM allows. The text of the Readied Action action does not say anything in regards to standard actions that it does not also say in regards to swift actions.
Scenario: Level 1 Fighter readies an action to make a melee attack if an enemy comes within reach. An orc runs up to him to attack.
Questions:
1) What action type does Level 1 Fighter use to ready the attack?
2) What action type is the attack?
3) Assuming the answer to both of the previous questions is "standard" what rule states that Level 1 Fighter can take a second standard action.
The argument that the actions triggered by a readied action retain their previous type makes it impossible for anyone not under the effect of haste or a similar spell to ever ready a standard action which the readied action description specifically says you can do.
Note the language about only being able to take 1 swift action is during your turn, not the next round. Compare to the language immediate actions has that specifies what happens when an immediate action is after the turn. Realizing this, I think this might be legit rulewise even if it seems like a shenanigan.
Not terribly broken, you are losing a standard action, will likely drop your initiative count, and have a chance to lose the readied action if the triggering condition doesn't happen. I would think a condition would have to be more specific than just another character starting their turn or "doing something".
Sorry, you cannot take more than one swift action a turn, so you could ready, but when the ready triggered, you would already have used your swift, so can't do it.
This is correct.
Readying an action does not convert a Standard to something else, instead you USE your standard to allow you to act before someone else's action with another action type that is still available to you.
It does NOT say anywhere that it converts it. It allows you to TAKE that kind of action, which you must still have available.
Readying essentially trades your standard action for an interrupt effect. You must still have actions available to act.
This is a poorly written section, unfortunately, because one could argue that you couldn't use it for a standard action, as that was used to Ready...
This is where we have to assume that you ARE allowed to ready your Standard action, and still take it...
(Wall of words. Sorry. Trying to pick things apart here).
No one is suggesting that you can take 2 Swift on your turn.
Those that think Readying a Swift action counts as your Swift action are not understanding the nature of Ready. They are stuck on this idea that when you ready an action, that action somehow retains its original nature. This is not how Ready works. As per the rules of Pathfinder, Readying (and performing that Readied Action) is a Standard Action. It doesn't matter if you ready a Standard, a Move, a Swift, or a Free. It is a Standard action to ready it and perform it.
If you insist that Readying a Swift action still counts as a Swift, then you must also insist that Readying a Move still counts as a Move and Readying a Standard still counts as a Standard. Either you apply your interpretation of how Ready works across the board for all instances or you don't. You can't pick and choose different instances and apply different interpretations.
Case and Point; according to your interpretation...
#1
Wizard Readies to cast a Quickened Fireball.
Readying uses his Standard action.
Casting a Quickened spell counts as his Swift action.
Readying and Casting a Quickened Fireball uses his Standard and Swift actions.
Wizard has his Move and Free actions left.
This right here is in violation of the rules because this example is saying the cost of Readying in this case is Standard + Swift. The rules clearly state that the cost of Readying is Standard only.
But it gets worse...
#2
Rogue Readies to draw his dagger.
Readying uses his Standard Action.
Drawing a weapon counts as his Move action.
Readying and Drawing a dagger uses his Standard and Move actions.
Rogue has his Swift and Free actions left.
This is clearly wrong, because now Readying an action is costing a Standard + Move. That is not how the rules work at all. But this is what we're forced to accept if we insist that the action we're readying retains it's original nature of Move or Swift or whatever.
And here is where it falls apart completely...
#3
Warrior Readies to attack a closing target.
Readying uses his Standard Action.
Attacking counts as his Standard Action.
Readying and Attacking his target uses TWO Standard actions.
Warrior Readies his attack, but has no allowable actions left to actually attack.
Note that #2 and #3 follow the exact same reasoning you are trying to apply to #1. As you can hopefully see, it doesn't work. The reasoning of how you interpret Ready is wrong.
When you Ready an action, you are performing that action as a Standard. It is no longer a Move, Swift, or Free. It is a Standard. To treat it as a Move, Swift, or Free means that you use up your whole turn just Readying a Move (as per #2) and can never Ready a Standard, as that violates Action Economy.
Per the rules you are allowed a Standard, a Move, a Swift, and as many Free as the GM will allow. When you Ready an action, that action becomes your Standard. You still have a Move, Swift, and Free available to you. I say this with all sincerity and no snark what-so-ever, it just doesn't work the way you want to force it to.
Hopefully this helps.
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
Readying, which IS a standard action, 'lets you prepare to take an action later'...
it doesn't convert. You SPEND your standard to allow you to change when you take ANOTHER action.
I can see how you would read it to allow for a swift action, but I don't agree that it should be allowed.
Putting aside all specific>general stuff, I don't think the game developers ever intended to allow for more than one swift action per round, no matter how you intend to perform it.
To try to summarize it:
1. Rules say you get one swift action per round
2. Readying an action does not override that general rule
3. Readying does not change what type of action something is, though it might change the action economy cost (you are still using a swift action, even though it's costing a standard)
4. Hence, you can never Ready to take a second swift action, because that would be breaking rule #1
1. True.
2. True.3. False. Readying DOES change the action. It has to. I'm allowed ONE Standard and ONE Move per turn. If I move and then Ready to Move again, I can't do so according to your interpretation. I've already Moved and I've already used my Standard to Ready, so I have no Move left to me (because you're saying my readied Move still counts as a Move and I'm only allowed 1 unless I burn my Standard to do so...which I don't have because it's tied up Readied). But if Readying changes the action into a Standard, then I can Move, Ready to Move again, and then actually Move when the trigger happens.
4. False. Readying does not use another Swift action. It uses your Standard.
"The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action."
Readying, which IS a standard action, 'lets you prepare to take an action later'...
it doesn't convert. You SPEND your standard to allow you to change when you take ANOTHER action.
I can see how you would read it to allow for a swift action, but I don't agree that it should be allowed.
Putting aside all specific>general stuff, I don't think the game developers ever intended to allow for more than one swift action per round, no matter how you intend to perform it.
Please reread my post above yours as what you're saying constitutes examples #2 and #3, which is impossible and in violation of the rules.