There have been quite a few threads and discussions here about the difficulty of the introductory scenarios in Wrath of the Righteous. In some cases, folks have expressed frustration in their team's inability to get through one of the early scenarios or in the feeling that their failures/character deaths were due primarily to luck rather than anything they had control over.
I believe that many players' experience with Wrath of the Righteous would be improved with some 'strategy ideas' or something similarly tutorial-esque built in to the instruction booklet itself to help groups either get started (if they are brand new to the PACG) or get oriented to some of the nuances in the adventure path or with specific characters (if they are PACG veterans). For instance, I would propose something like the following (expanded, cleaned up, and nicely written) for the Wrath instruction book:
Strategy Hints & Tips
- Scouting and Evasion are vital: There will be a lot of unpleasantness in your Worldwound adventures -- more than you may have seen if you played Rise of the Runelords or Skull & Shackles. In those worlds, your team may have been able to boisterously knock down every door and destroy everything in your path; that strategy may not work as well here in Wrath of the Righteous. Don't feel like you must fight every bane in each location -- scouting and evasion tools can help you prudently fight when you have the edge and avoid trouble that you (or your team) are not yet prepared for.
- Your deck is your life: Since there is a lot of unpleasantness around, you will want to be judicious in using your cards from your deck in Wrath of the Righteous, especially if that use will discard, bury, or banish the card. Choosing to discard a card at the end of your turn may help you cycle through your deck to get a desired card sooner, but it comes at a cost -- you will be at death's door sooner as well. Discarding a blessing or ally to explore again moves you one step closer to death as well. In a small party, there won't be much time pressure from the blessings deck, so it will be important to keep your deck well-stocked as you take your turns. In a large party, there will be more pressure to move quickly through your location on your turn, but think about your health carefully as you weigh out your choices.
- You may not have to permanently close every location to succeed: In many scenarios, defeating a henchman will give you the opportunity to permanently close a location, which usually moves your team one step closer to a successfully cornered villain (and a scenario victory!) Keep an eye out for scenarios where this is not the case such as The Elven Entanglement. When most of the henchmen do not give an opportunity to close a location, your path to victory may be quite different. Remember that in most scenarios you only need to defeat and corner the villain for success, and with a spread out team to temporarily close locations, you often only need to permanently close 2 locations before fanning out and seeking the villain for a scenario victory.
- Remember to use your character's powers whenever you can: When starting out, it is easy to get caught up in the heat of battle and forget about using your character's powers. Whether it's Imrijka's ability to potentially explore again after taking out a monster on her turn, Enora's recharging of a spell from her discard pile after she plays a spell, Seelah's use of Charisma instead of any listed skill on a check before she acts, or Kyra's ability to heal herself or a friend at her location when using a non-corrupted blessing on anyone's check to defeat, each ability is essential to your character's (and your team's) success and survival, so be sure you are using them whenever they are available!
- Don't be afraid to try out different characters at the start if things aren't working out: In the beginning scenarios, you and your character are feeling each other out. If you are playing a character and your character keeps dying, your team isn't winning scenarios, or it just doesn't feel fun, don't be afraid to switch out to a new character and start again. Success requires that you and your character are in sync throughout your adventures, but the sooner you decide that you are not happy with your character the easier it will be to get a new character tested out and up to speed for your team.
What do y'all think? I know that for many, part of the fun of the game is figuring out things like this, but for others, they may not be able to hit up the fun until they have found their way to the information in some of these tips, so making the tips available directly in the instruction book may help more groups enjoy the game.
This is a great set of strategy tips. I agree that it could have been included in the rulebook, assuming that the team knew all of these. At the very least, this could be added to the FAQ as an answer to "what am I doing wrong with WoTR?"
I think that those are all good pieces of advice. I would also add an 'Armor isn't awful' section. A fair number of players see damage reduction in general and armor in particular as an impediment for fast cycling-efficient decks. The problem is that Wrath takes those decks and stomps them into little pieces. Having some way to mitigate when bad things happen to you is essential. The, "if I always win my checks, why do I need a way to prevent damage?" philosophy doesn't seem to work this time around.
I'd probably eliminate evading from the first one. At least, if you're going to label that section as "vital". That's 100% a personal preference. The groups I've played in all scouted a somewhat decent amount, but through 3 AP runs between 10-15 people, I could probably count on two hands how many times I've seen someone evade (and most of those were probably the spell from Runelords that let you evade if you failed the check).
Josh definitely hit an important one. Especially as we see more and more Before and After you Act damage, there is a lot of damage that has nothing to do with choices or dice, you play armor or you take it.
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While I agree with the first point, I have to ask, how much scouting is there available in this? There's Ring of Climbing and... Detect Demons? Outside of character powers (and you may not have one of those characters), that's all I can think of. (The lack of Augury or even a decent replacement is probably my biggest pet peeve about S&S and WotR compared to RotR. The challenge is much higher, and now I'm even LESS prepared for it)
I was thinking about that same issue this morning. Evasion is also difficult as the cards that allow for evasion don't seem to work on the cards that a player would want to evade.
I'm mostly thinking of squishy casters evading Fiendish Trees and Carrion Golems.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only evasion spells are Create Pit and Sanctuary.
Create Pit only works on banes with a difficulty of 12 or lower. Unfortunately, the Fiendish Tree is defeated by a Combat 13 check and the Golem is defeated by a Combat 14 check.
Sanctuary is generally more effective, but it has the mental trait. I don't have the cards in front of me, but I believe both the Tree and the Golem are immune to the mental trait.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
isaic16 wrote: While I agree with the first point, I have to ask, how much scouting is there available in this? There's Ring of Climbing and... Detect Demons? Outside of character powers (and you may not have one of those characters), that's all I can think of. (The lack of Augury or even a decent replacement is probably my biggest pet peeve about S&S and WotR compared to RotR. The challenge is much higher, and now I'm even LESS prepared for it) You've got the option of mixing in cards from a Class Deck into the box; the Wizard and Cleric decks have Auguries, and the Bard and Sorceror decks have Scrying if you can wait until Deck 3. I'd consider the Wizard deck an appropriate mix-in if you've got Enora in the party.
Edit: if you're playing Seioni and have her promo card, that's a scouting power that is Basic for you.
Actually, Scrying is a pretty common card among the class decks. It's in the Fighter Deck as well. The Class Decks also have Spyglasses and other wonderful cards for scouting and such.
The only issue there is that a player would need to have access to cards that aren't included in the AP. I assume that a large number of us on the boards will have access to some or all of those cards, but I don't know if that is the case for the average player.
I'm don't think "buy more cards" is something I would want to offer as advice to newer players struggling with the game.
Bard, I probably wouldn't use adding outside products as basis for any strategy guide piece in the rulebook.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Andrew L Klein wrote: Bard, I probably wouldn't use adding outside products as basis for any strategy guide piece in the rulebook. Yeah, good point; I guess my response wasn't particularly relevant to the OP. That said, this obviously isn't going in the WotR rulebook, and Mummy's Mask and future sets may go back to more scouting cards. (Though I got the impression that scouting in MM might burn you every now and again)
'Armor isn't Awful' would definitely be a good add-in to this section, especially for returning players from RotR or S&S. Perhaps something like:
- Cards that reduce damage aren't just a safety net: In Wrath of the Righteous, there are quite a few banes that will do damage to you regardless of your ability to successfully defeat them. While armors and items that reduce damage were primarily used to lessen the sting of an unlucky roll to defeat a monster in Rise of the Runelords or Skull & Shackles, you may find more consistent use for these cards as your team plays through Wrath of the Righteous. Don't forget that you can pass excess armors and items that reduce damage to allies at your location at the start of your turn as well!
As for the comments about evasion and scouting, I agree that much of the available scouting in the early scenarios of WotR are either character or location dependent, but I still think it is worth highlighting that any scouting that is available should be valued highly. That tip may sway a player's decision in favor of a character that has scouting abilities but was dismissed because the scouting was not being valued, or may get the group to take along one of the basic scouting spells or items at the start to help smooth things out. I agree that there shouldn't be any direct mention in a base set instruction booklet of adding in class deck cards or other purchasable cards, but seeing that tip may trigger an idea among those who own those cards: 'Hey, we have some more scouting stuff over here -- let's put it in the box if we're having trouble.'
I believe that evasion is still much more powerful than many play groups give it credit for, especially here in WotR. While it's true that you can't quite create a pit big enough to hold a Carrion Golem, Create Pit still evades any nasties with a check to defeat of 12 or less (and remember that evading happens BEFORE any 'before you act' unpleasantness as well). If Enora is staring down a Combat 11-12 critter, an auto-evade to the bottom of the location deck rather than a d12+2d4+1 (average 12.5) attack spell may be quite preferable in the long run, even if the recharge check fails and Create Pit is buried. As for Sanctuary, it doesn't move things to the bottom of the location deck but it does set up any nasty that's not immune to Mental for a big hit from your team's big hitter, all without harming the character who originally encountered it -- and remember that Sanctuary can be cast on anyone at your location, so a Sanctuary in one player's hand can provide a wide net of relatively safe explorations. (Note: Carrion Golem is not immune to Mental, although the Fiendish Tree is.)
Any other ideas out there for a section such as this? Do you think a section like this belongs in a base set rulebook? Is it the sort of thing that instead belongs in supplementary online resources? Should this not be provided by Paizo at all and be left to players to figure out on their own (or with others here on the message boards) with each new set?
Hooloovoo, maybe you can convert your post to a google doc and have it stickied. That's almost as good as having it in the rulebook. The rulebook is rather static; you can modify this guide as things come up.
I don't think something like this is necessarily something that Paizo should provide; however this is something that the players can.
Personally, I'm not sure something like this needs to be in the rulebook.
For example, were I a total newbie, I'd have serious questions about certain characters. If I need to be timidly cautious* about discard/bury/banish to do things, and I should use my character powers whenever possible, why under Sarenrae's blazing sun would ANYONE ever play a spell-laden non-caster suicide engine like Crowe?
It'd just confuse me.
*I know that it doesn't say that; but giving advice that those disposals "put you closer to death's door" will tend to foster an unwillingness to take risks. It's already in the rulebook, and in the example of play (which tends to drive the point home well enough. Imrijka got a hand-wipe, resets, and things are looking very grim for her now. Alain, though, is undeterred by his kindasortafriend's plight and sallies forth...)
Even if the advice is sound, putting it in the book could have the advice be mistaken for actual rules.
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