Reading the intro and campaign summary, it seems quite interesting and I'm looking forward to running it, but I have noticed a lack of suggestions along the line of "The party should be about 3rd level", or any other such advice.
Which I suppose is the idea, leaving it up to me. And I have no problem figuring out just what my party can handle and what they can't.
The problem is, I am beginning to feel like I need to read hundreds of pages to figure out the best place to start and then analyze dozens of encounter CRs to estimate the correct levels for the party. And when they're done with that little corner of the sandbox, I need to read hundreds of pages again to figure out the next corner of the sandbox, and evaluate dozens of encounters to figure out if they're the right level here or should I give them a diversion to gain XP, etc.
Maybe I just missed it, but there doesn't seem to be a "best path, go here, then go here, at these suggested levels" guide anywhere in the book.
Again, it's a sandbox, I get it, but now I have a monumental book to read to just figure out where to start and at what level.
Does anyone have any familiarity/experience with this campaign and can offer advice on what worked or didn't work for you?
If you have a copy of the book, I suggest reading Bill Webb's introduction. It doesn't answer your questions, but it explains why those things are not present in the book.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you have a copy of the book, I suggest reading Bill Webb's introduction. It doesn't answer your questions, but it explains why those things are not present in the book.
Oh yeah, I read that before I posted. Check my post, I already said that I know why that stuff isn't there, I get the sandbox idea.
Now I'm just looking to see if some GMs out there have started this yet and have any advice, info, suggestions, anecdotes, whatever - anything that might serve as a guide to, at least, starting it the best way.
As a side note, I'm a little disappointed that this campaign is SO MUCH of a sandbox without even level suggestions. Frankly, it would have been better organized with just two chapters:
1. The introduction it already has
2. One giant chapter that is an indexed list of encounters by CR.
Or a different organization might have been to expand the introduction by a hundred words or so, most of which would have said "I recommend the PCs be level X to start the portion of the adventure on page YYY." Maybe throw in another hundred words in between those recommendations, such as "If they're not level X, refer to the encounters on pages AAA - BBB as needed."
Then I could just dive right in. Read the intro, start them off with some level 1 encounters to get the ball rolling, mix in the plot-specific stuff as needed. Bingo. Done.
As is, I can still do that - but without the organization, I need to read 300 pages before I start the campaign, instead of just reading 30 or so and then staying ahead of the PCs' progress.
Don't get me wrong, I like what I've seen so far and I'll use it, but normally when I drop this kind of cash for an adventure it's because I'm paying someone else to do the work for me - but with this campaign, the work incumbent on the GM is vastly more arduous than most.
I almost feel like I could have done much the same thing with just a 5-page synopsis, a few dozen maps, and my stack of Bestiaries and the NPC Codex. This could have been a 50 page book advising me on how to create the encounters and why, and I could do the rest - from the players perspective, it might have felt the same, and from my perspective, the work I do would have only been a little increased.
TL;dr: I'm still hoping some GMs out there have slapped together some guidelines that helped them and are willing to share. I'll do the same, once I my PCs start into the guts of the story.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think one of the main ideas in the Lost Lands work is that sometimes they PCs run into things that they cannot handle.
I have a group in Bards Gate right now, they were resting from adventuring but had not completed the previous adventure. They wanted to sniff around for rumors and other opportunities.
I brought in the guy who asked them to help with the problem at the grave yard. They scared off the people in the graveyard that night and got an offer to meet Kaden. They were guided into the swamp to meet him and then went back to Bards Gate.
They then went off to finish the previous adventure with thoughts and talks about Kaden and his mission to the coast.
They also have a person who built a character that is very interested in the Desolation.
I have stopped worrying about CRs. I did say they probably wanted to be 7th level before going to the Desolation.
In these adventures 7th level characters are faced with rats and stirges, and then faced with CR11 horrors they probably should run from. It is more like it would be in the real world.
I think modern gamers have been programmed to expect only things they can handle (usually) in the order that they can handle them. They do not get skeletons at 10th level or CR 16 encounters. They get what they expect.
In the old days, and Bill is a very old days kind of gamer, it is more about exploration than it is about following a story. What I like about the whole thing is that my group can drop what they are doing and they can go on to the Desolation, or follow Kaden's quest or back to Rappan Ahtuk.
That whole book is not intended to be an adventure you run them straight through. It is almost a campaign setting with encounters. The main story thread may never be completed. They can go where they want based on some rumor, or get on the path of the Sword of Air story line.
I look forward to the Sundered Kingdoms. I will be running my in the Lost Lands for years to come, and may not run another adventure path for many years (although I will play them and collect them).
I am sure we will explore Tsar, the rest of Rappan Ahtuk, Endhome, everything in the Sword of Air.
Go grab the Lost City of Barakus. There's some good low-level stuff there. Start them at Endholme, throw in some rumors that lead into the Sword of Air stuff (admittedly one of the things from FGG I don't own... yet) and toss 'em in. Otherwise PM me and with a little guidance from you we can work out some side quest that get's your players up to speed and into the campaign.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I presume you're looking for more than the "one way to start" section? (Page 6 of the swords and wizardry version). That indicates it is intended for PCs of 2nd-5th level and provides a decent hook for getting things going (whether you take the Geas suggestion or not) based around Bard's Gate.
However, I think Shem's view of Sword of Air being a campaign setting, rather than an adventure is certainly a useful mindset to adopt. As such, you probably do need to read hundreds of pages to really see its full potential at your table.
Besides greater prep-time and greater improvisational demands, the other essential ingredient for successful sandbox adventures (in my opinion) is player buy in. If they're walking around trying to work out what they're "supposed to do" next, then I think this adventure is going to fall flat.
Sadly, this is my favourite RPG book of all time, but I suspect I'm never going to be able to run it. My players are far more comfortable playing heavily railroaded adventures.
|
|
My group has played several session in RA, and then got teleported near Bards Gate. They asked around town and found an issue they thought my be interesting to explore and started an adventure from Stoneheart Valley. They have been back to town twice since then and have been exploring a tomb between visits.
They are currently between 5th and 7th levels.
At this stage going into either Sword of Air or the Desolation will be an easy transition.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There will be a few spoilers in the following so, I'll cover some of this up just in case. I'll caveat that I'm running this in Swords and Wizardry so Challenge Rating, ECL, things like that are all very vague on my end.
The main hook I used to get my party interested (and they don't even know they're on part of the storyline yet) is power. I have two magic users in the group who are hungry for more spells - you get them at a much slower rate in S&W than PF. The group has been spending time in Stoneheart Valley (a great starter adventure for this, imo)... After some digging, the PC's caught wind of a magic user who may be willing to trade services for spells (get your mind out of the gutter - QUESTS!)
Thus far the party has taken the time to go to Stoneheart Forest and meet with Kayden. Check out Kaydens chapter in the book by the way. It feels out of place, being near the middle, but it's actually a decent place to start. There's a lot of interesting material there besides just "he's an evil wizard who thinks he's the good guy". I had his Ogre Mage butler escort the PC's to his mansion under cover of illusion so they wouldn't get the whole 'evil wizard' vibe. While there, they were able to talk Kayden into letting them do a couple of quests for him. Being a wizard who's holed up in his evil swamp, it's nice for him to have some PC's on the outside doing his bidding.
What's really nice (from a DM perspective) is that Kayden can give quests that are optional for the party. It gives them a) something to do b) without forcing them to do it. And Kayden has the resources to reward them.
The first quest I had Kayden give them was to bring the broken vial from Eralion's Crypt (in the Ruined Keep outside of Fairhill - Stoneheart Valley). It's a win-win. Kayden gets something to study, the PC magic users get a low level spellbook.
Other options - gather spell components, manticore eggs, find out what the priests are up to in Stoneheart Mountain Dungeon, bring dust from the edge of the Blight, things like that. Remember, it's a very open world, and the PCs should feel free to accept or deny any quests. They're doing this for their own advancement in both power and wealth (and coincidentally, Kayden's too!).
Later on though, as the party gains in power and influence, he can start sending them on more specific missions. Eventually leading up to the point where he either feels confident enough in them or fears them enough to Geas them into attacking Sorten the "evil wizard". Who is actually a good wizard. And that will bring about it's own set of adventures. He may even tell them that Sorten knows where the Sword of Air is. Or at least that he thinks Sorten knows where the Sword is. And that it can be used to save the world! (so Steve says anyway).
Regardless, I find it's best in a sandbox to remember that the PC's can and will go where they want. Keep throwing out hooks... not all at once, you don't want to overwhelm them, but each session make sure they know all the options. It's not a railroad. More like Skyrim. The main quest is there, but you can ignore it and still have a really good time.
I just started them on the road between Fairhill and Bard's Gate. A quick goblin encounter to bring them together and now they're in Bard's Gate, getting a goblin-hunting mission from the guards.
I was tempted to try to start with those gnolls up in that fortress way at the north end of the map; they come with an "adventure start" introduction too. But they're not level 1 content either, and soooo far away from the rest of the story that it seemed too out of the way.
So we'll probably spend a level or two doing "random" stuff for now, making friends, learning the town, gaining a little fame - enough to draw attention of Kayden for the first main story plot hook.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I put the map on the wall, actually both maps together, and just having it there they look at things like the Dragon Hills and wonder what is going on their. Greed can be a strong motivator.
If they decided to go find out what that, or anything else on the map is about I would let them go with no comment.
They will get themselves in plenty of trouble just having that map stare at them every time we play.
Bards Gate is a long ways away from Endhome and the Lost City of Barakus, but Rappan Athuk and Zelkor's Ferry are a bit closer. As is Stoneheart Mountain Dungeon. I'd highly recommend checking those out for options to get your PC's a couple of levels before diving headlong into SoA.
|
|
Rappan Athuk is almost 1000 miles away if you go by the scale on the map. Nothing is close.
I sat down with Bill and talked about this a few weeks ago. The second chapter of Serpent Skull is about a 1000 mile trek and it took several game sessions, like 4 to 6 (and we play a long time during a session), I suppose you can rush it along but there is always going to be something to slow progress and the group will want to check certain things out.
On the other hand I think that the idea of getting anywhere is a huge undertaking might bring in a mind set that I want. I am not sure yet but I am working on it.
Eventually the group will want to return to RA. I guess the trip should be epic.
SOA actually drags you all over the map if you are working on the actual quest. A short trip in the lost lands is at least 100 miles.
It is also almost 1000 miles to the Desolation from Bards Gate.
It is going to be a very long campaign...
Speaking of maps : is there a full map of the "unified" lost lands somewhere in the new modules ?
I have access to some of the older modules, but I have difficulties putting the whole region together.
Currently, the maps available include the Akados Region and the Sinnar Coast, available HERE on the Frog God Games website.
The only issue with that 1000 miles is that it takes two months to go anywhere. I am considering dropping the scale a bit.
|
|
I have thought about that too. In the second chapter of Serpent Skull it was a 1000 mile trek into the jungle to find a lost city. It took two months game time to get there. I think it took us three or four long game sessions for the group to arrive.
The this reason I have considered (but not decided yet) to make the hexes 10 miles rather than 50 miles.
Currently my group is in the Tomb of Abysthor and by the scale on the map it is 130 to 150 miles from Bard's Gate. At 10 miles a hex it is more like 30 miles. They can make that trip in a hard days travel.
I am still struggling with the ideas around scale.
Although the idea of the scale is that this place is huge, and it is very true. It is huge.
Having a big dungeon like ToA just 30 miles away from a metropolis like Bard's Gate seems to close. Why hasn't that place been fully looted if it's just a day's march? Why do the high level NPCs of Bard's Gate (and there are plenty of them) let that Tomb just sit there only a day away when at any time a legion of monstrous nastiness could sally forth and wreak havoc on the countryside and farmlands and tent city that surround Bard's Gate? It would kinda be like imagining Berlin and Paris being 30 miles apart in 1940.
I know, I know, the caster/martial threads have proven that verisimilitude is a dead word, but at least for me, I'd prefer it to be over a hundred miles away.
But yes, there's a lot wilderness on that map to cover...
Is it that far Shem? I have a party doing that trek in Serpent Skull now also. They have been at it for 3-4 sessions already and just left the first city in between so they have a ways to go yet. I was considering cutting it more like in half, as you are right DM_Blake, 10 miles makes things too close. I think originally it was only about 3-4 days from Bard's Gate when I ran ToA for the first time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
At 150 miles ToA would be about almost a week away.
That is a lot of trouble to get into on the way home.
Bah.
You call it trouble; I call it adventure. You see it as an obstacle; I see it as XP.
I believe the introduction to the Sword of Air giant campaign book says outright that the overland in this world is relatively peaceful and most overland encounters are with animals like deer or maybe at worst a bear or a few wolves. Most of the non-animal encounters are with low-level stuff like orcs and such. Very few encounters are with anything of note. Bill specifically says that in his world, if you want the good XP and loot, you gotta go into dungeons. I think that last bit is just a bout a direct quote that's in there somewhere.
So if we follow that guideline, those 150 miles can go by in a sentence: "It takes you a week, but along the way all you saw were some wild animals that ran from you." And done.
Did that 150 miles take a week? Nope, it took 10 seconds for the GM to say that and the party is home. Heck, if the PCs have a few levels under their belts, you can add "Oh, and you found a patrol of orcs. You killed them easily, here's 200 XP and 30 GP for each of you."
But, if you want them to have a little side adventure, it means it takes longer to get home, but they get an ADVENTURE with all the good stuff that comes with it - never a problem unless they have a ticking clock on their main quest.
At 16 miles a day that is more like 9 days. Aren't they kinda the same thing? Trouble and adventure?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I suggest Stoneheart Valley series (Crucible et al) to get them started. Heck, there could be easy-import clues in the shadow-wizard's lair, for example.
This one is intended to be a long, long journey...
This is similar to how we've gone about it. My group finished the Crucible quest and a few overland lairs - and I story-lined in several reasons for them to go to the old Burial Halls (Tomb of Abysthor). They've played around with that, but the biggest thing that's tied it in to the overall arc is their connection to Kayden.
We play S&W so spells are much more rare to come across. The magic users (we have two) have hooked up with Kaydenwho helps them along with spells, identifications, sage work, etc in return for doing jobs for him. Gathering rare components, things of that nature. Definitely going to be a long game here, this won't be over anytime soon.
|
|
My group has been doing the ToA and they were in Bard's Gate recovering, shopping, drinking, etc. One of the players (with the Paladin) left for the night and the rest wanted to find something to do without going back to the Tomb. I introduced the priest connected with Kayden. They went to the graveyard, and then a day or two later went with him to Kayden's place and talked to him. No Paladin... They are working on the Tomb again but they have it in their minds to go to the tower now.
A good time...