Paladin of Iomedae in my party want to explore themes of falling and redemption. He is planning to fall. He is exhibiting pride, anger and a little too much love of smiting. I am throwing little warning signs, like tarnished armour etc. (he doesn't need them, but it seems appropriate) I am waiting for that one moment where he does that one thing that causes his deity to abandon him. This will likely be when he draws a weapon on an ally in anger. Feel free to suggest possible alternatives.
My questions to you are these:
How to describe/convey this? My current thoughts are towards describing an overwhelming sense of emptiness, sorrow and loss.
Will it be immediate? A deity likely knows whats in your heart. Will a deity of companions and loyalty abandon her champion when he turns on an ally or when that ally lies dead?
I like paladins falling in order to do something that he believes will be really, really good for a lot of people, only it's also kind of evil.
Arthas razing that city in order to stop the plague is a pretty well-known example, only it's better when it actually works.
Otherwise, it easily becomes a more Anakin-style 'woe is me' type of fall.
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Honestly, there are some people on this board that seem to think that if a paladin trips and accidentally kicks a dog that he instantly falls. I'd hate to play with these people if they are GMs and anyone has the misfortune of playing a Paladin.
So long as the Paladin's actions are generally in line with his code of honor, then he doesn't fall so long as he feels remorse for what he has done. Amends would be a requirement for him to overlook these indiscretions, otherwise they would begin to pile up and he would eventually feel his power weakening.
I like to think about Paladins losing their power as a sliding scale. The more indiscretions made by the Paladin that goes against his code of conduct and/or alignment the weaker his connection with his god becomes. I like to think of it as he is keenly aware of his deity becoming disappointed in his actions.
This might manifest as nightmares, a strange non-mechanical exhaustion that seems to take him (Assume he has been in a regularly good or energized mood from his deity's infusion of energy) or even a divine penalty to his rolls.
However, there should never be an "instant fall" scenario unless he does something absolutely horrendous, and half-way through that he should be getting a -5 divine penalty to everything to portray his deity's disfavor of his actions.
You also have another roadblock: Iomedae hasn't quite grasped the concept of true godhood, similar to the Drunken God and Nethys. She remembers what it is like to be mortal, and might go out of her way to help keep her paladins on the straight and narrow.
However, you need to keep in mind that the Golarion gods are on par with the Earth gods in terms of how often they interact with their followers. The only major exceptions to this are divine characters (for this example: Clerics and Paladins) that are scions of their gods. From this perspective, we can assume that they have an emphatic link with their gods, and should their gods decide to contact them they can do so.
So, in response to your question:
The paladin should be keenly aware that he is doing things that are wrong. He should know that his Deity is disappointed in what he is doing. You can portray this as him taking negative divine penalties. In one of the modules (Hangman's noose, I think it was) has a Paladins that realizes he wrongfully sentenced a man to death. He renounces his Paladinhood, and therefore falls, on his own accord as he finds this to be unforgivable.
So, what I think you should do is start giving him permanent divine penalties to all d20 rolls. He does things that Iomedae doesn't approve of, instead of losing his powers he begins accruing penalties, first -1, then -2 and so forth. He then can choose to fall, losing all of his paladin powers, but also losing all of the penalties. The only caveat being that if the divine penalties equal his paladin levels he auto-falls. This way it isn't Iomedae that is abandoning him, but him abandoning Iomedae to go his own path. When he decides he wants to return, Iomedae will welcome him with open arms so long as he undertakes some sort of test to prove his worth once more.
An alternative if he wants his pc to fall: (similar to what the dragon suggested)
The party finds clues that some child nearby is possessed/a demon in disguise/whatever. They know that the child has to be stopped before it grows in power enough to become a big threat.
Certainly the mother doesn't believe it when told that her kid has to be killed and stands in front of the child in a "over my dead body" way... the paladin now takes her up to it and runs both through with his sword.
Now he saved the town/district/kingdom from evil but he killed a unarmed and innocent woman to do so.
How to convey his fall: Depends on his level. He looses his powers, did he already have aura of courage? If so all around him feel less optimistic and sure about being able to take on their enemies.
Divine grace and divine health, that would have made him look especially healthy before are gone, he is less sure footed and less strong willed. The hero figure turns into an everyday man. A thug in armor with innocent blood dripping from his sword.
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Heavily, since they wear heavy armour.
I think the paladin falling is not about the deity abandoning the paladin. But about the paladin abandoning the deity. The god May still love the paladin but only the sinless can have the powers of a paladin. At least in my mind the paladin fall because he walks out of the ligth not because the ligth abandons him.
In my game paladin powers are also Independent of gods.
In my game paladin powers are also Independent of gods.
So I could play a paladin of Aroden in your games?
So I could play a paladin of Aroden in your games?
In my game paladin powers are also Independent of gods.
you could play a paladin and you could like/worship/look up to who ever you wanted if it allowed you to be on the straigth and narrow. But you would never be a paladin of Aroden or any other god and no god would be able to take away your powers.
Edit: i dont have rogues, or barbarians of Aroden either| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If the attacker's CMB+roll result is greater than the Paladin's CMD, the trip is successful, and the Paladin falls prone.
How does a Paladin fall...
Prone, usually...
How to describe/convey this? My current thoughts are towards describing an overwhelming sense of emptiness, sorrow and loss.
There will be a point that the Paladin loses his right to wield the powers of good. That will need to be decided by you, the GM. I read your post as you working with the Player on this story so let me know if I am wrong.
As to how to handle it, once he hits that point, say NOTHING. The next time any paladin power is used or would be invoked as normal tell him it fails.
If he tries to lay hands, tell him no succor happens. If he tries to smite evil tell him that the power never surges within him. If he is forced to make a save tell him that the power that strikes him seems much stronger than he thinks it should be and that doubt plagues his mind and spirit.
Or just have someone intimidate him in the next fight. That alone should shake him to his roots even more.
Lets hope he has not invested in any Paladin only feats.
He forgot to tie his shoes
I love that you are working with a willing player on this ;)
There are two sides to this (IMO) - Mechanically - and conceptual role playing.
Mechanically if the paladin does *anything* that breaks the code they fall - that is they loose all paladin powers - this is as simple as telling a lie, or as complicated as doing something morally grey. In a mechanical sense the paladin can pay for an atonement spell - follow the directions given and be back to good graces. This is all how the rules work with a bit of 'gm factor' in how much they feel the paladin should suffer - it works much like confession in a Catholic church with a cost in gold for the character.
Conceptually if you and your player are on the same page to make it epic you have 'the sky is the limit' really. Many people gm the paladin as having physical qualities that denote the favor of their god (many people don't also but from your post it seemed you do). In that case I suggest continuing down that road and having the paladin powers flicker/not work correctly as they continue to transgress. Smite suddenly not working after the first hit, detect evil 'flickering' - if they are high enough level to be immune to disease perhaps have him catch a nasty cold.
If you do it this way I suggest skipping the atonement spell (although you could roleplay that up as well) for a more personal encounter with their deities herald - but only after he asks for forgiveness. Depending on the level you might go with a lower level servant - but this could make for a huge character moment - the Paladin should get a quest - I would say as he does the quest and if he stays true to the code he should get his powers back slowly (with smite being the last to return).
If he is going full anti-paladin play it up - but I think conceptually he has to be a full paladin to make that choice - the forces of chaos don't want a failed champion - they want a servant of justice that they can get to turn - to that end if he's starting to exhibit those traits it would be totally appropriate to have demons attempting to use whatever flaws he's displaying against him with offers of power, or easy ways to achieve his goals if he just offers them his services. I would say those offers would start small - for instance 'If you let me live I will help you during your next battle' type of things which isn't a outright violation of the code, but starts the path down a full on deal to be a champion of chaos... Perhaps with the last deal being a choice to die an ignoble death, or save thousands of innocents by willing damming themselves - lots of potential for good stories there....
Hm, I'd say the moment he fell would be the moment he struck away a good ally, not the moment he threatened them, or if the ally was evil. I always like playing neutral evil spellcasters, an my buddy likes playing a paladin, so I tend to have to be on my toes while working on some of my less tasteful enterprises. I'd describe the moment he fell similarly to the way others did earlier (Feeling of emptiness etc.) but with a physical marker as well, like the customary gleam leaves his equipment, or the holy symbol on his blade, shield water explodes in a blast of energy, describe the moments after, as the paladin tries, with mounting frustration, to call upon their god, and receives only a great void of silence.
Dumped Dexterity, forgot to tie his shoes, had a tragic public mishap and found out too late the guy with the goatee and tiny horns was full of s+%@:-)
Since your player is also planning on redemption, I think it would be important to work out that angle as well. There are a couple ways of doing this:
1) Have the Paladin feel any of the emotions you or others have mentioned.
2) Have whatever the final act is committed before the fall be one that makes the Paladin have a "My goddess, what have I done?!" moment and when he tries to heal by laying on of hands...can't.
3) If the final act doesn't immediately alert the Paladin (who by rights should probably have been getting some signals by now), something else must happen later to make the Paladin realize he's fallen - the Paladin may still pray or whatever but no longer feel the connection spiritually. In any case, at some point the Paladin should do something that makes him realize how far off the deep end he's gone.
How does a Paladin fall...
Prone, usually...
Not if he wears Catfall boots like Boots of Landing.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universa l-items#TOC-Boots-of-Landing
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I'm going to get a lot of flack for this, but as DM, I let the player decide when/if his paladin falls. I've had one player ease into it, getting closer and closer to the edge, and then finally dive full gonzo into it by sacrificing a person to his new demon-god. I've had another player whose paladin never looked twice in that direction, and stayed lily-white the whole campaign. And I've seen just about everything in between.
The upshot is that people aren't afraid to play paladins, and aren't afraid of exploring the moral elements of the class -- because they know that I'm not going to arbitrarily kick them out of the game because of it.
And it's important to note that I have NEVER had a player claim to be remaining LG while he/she commits evil acts, so all this stuff about "But you have to punish the players if they abuse their powers!" is nonsense, in my experience, assuming you don't play with 4-year-olds.
Thanks for the ideas. Some things I really need to think hard about here. Some things that will require much less thinking about... :)
Gilfalas, it is indeed a collaborative effort.
We already have the essence of his path to redemption planned out - he took one of my ideas and ran with it, he has made it a LOT harder on himself in the process.
Indagare, Point 3) he is definitely getting some warning signals, but is caught up in his own sense of superiority he's brushing them off.
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Came in the see the funny answers, not disappointed =D
yup, apparently one of the things I need to think hard about is how to title my threads... :)
When you say "He is planning to fall" I assume you actually mean that you are planning on having him fall. I would expect if the character was planning on falling, he would already not be a Paladin, since I don't think anyone who doesn't really want to be a Paladin is one.
It sounds like you want to go with a theme of 'he would be a good guy, but he has some anger management issues.' Which is a perfectly justified reason for a Paladin to fall.
I'm not quite sure where you are coming from thinking you would kill an ally though. Is the thought that you fall > get pissed > kill off ally for Fun or Ally disagrees with you > get pissed > murder ally > fall. Either is somewhat workable, but the first is more embracing the darkness, while the second is momentary lapse of control, and probably easier to come back from.
Honestly, funny answers is the only good things that can come out of a paladin thread.
If you want to address this mechanically take away his paladin mechanics piece by piece that only benefit him directly. Let him keep his lay on hands until the very end. Take away his Divine Health, Divine Grace, Aura of Courage all through the end until he loses smite evil and lay on hands....
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Falling isn't about making a mistake. There are spells like Atonement and Phylacteries of Faithfulness to help with those.
Falling is about becoming so disillusioned and angry that you stop caring about the consequences of your actions.
It isn't the paladin's god turning their back on them. It is the paladin turning their back on their god.
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When you say "He is planning to fall" I assume you actually mean that you are planning on having him fall. I would expect if the character was planning on falling, he would already not be a Paladin, since I don't think anyone who doesn't really want to be a Paladin is one.
It sounds like you want to go with a theme of 'he would be a good guy, but he has some anger management issues.' Which is a perfectly justified reason for a Paladin to fall.
I'm not quite sure where you are coming from thinking you would kill an ally though. Is the thought that you fall > get pissed > kill off ally for Fun or Ally disagrees with you > get pissed > murder ally > fall. Either is somewhat workable, but the first is more embracing the darkness, while the second is momentary lapse of control, and probably easier to come back from.
I mean the player wants his character to fall, and a slow fall is more in keeping with the theme. The character of course remains convinced his actions are righteous.
He has had an ongoing conflict with the party rogue since joining the campaign that he is now escalating (with the rogue players permission) and it looked to me like that may be one direction to take it.
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I had a spectacular game with a paladin who planned to have his character fall once. He wanted to be an antipaladin Knight of the Sepulcher, but the party started out as heroes - he played a fantastically arrogant and self-assured spoiled brat of a young nobleman, absolutely obsessed with his own self-importance and righteousness. The villain in this game hurt the party BAD early on - enough to really draw out the vengeful attitude of the players. This paladin took the vengeance aspect to the extreme, and let it consume him. When things came to a head, he was presented with a remarkably clear choice of whether to save an innocent and let his quarry escape, or chase him down and get vengeance once and for all. He didn't even think twice, and plunged right after him, leaving the rest of the party behind. They caught up with him after they'd saved the hostage - just in time to see the villain run the now ex-paladin through and toss his bleeding body off a rooftop.
He survived... barely. Something brought him back to a half-life (the undeath-tainted nature of the Knight of the Sepulcher archetype), and he rejoined the party... but now his vengeance fueled his power, instead of tainting it. Mr. Pseudo-Death Knight was right bloody terrifying too. Very fun character.
I would go with the falling is caused by the paladin going too far, for example, they face a villain who has escaped from prison, a truly evil person, who surrenders when he is defeated, and gloats to the party/paladin that he's just going to escape again/get of on technicality/ be protected by wealth or power from justice; maybe have this happen several times, and then one time the paladin just says no. and kills him in cold blood, after he had surrendered.
Some miro ripples in character may happen, but warning signs as in place indeed. The key in the fall is deliberate action completely co trary to the ideals of good and order. He can yell at people and just get migraine, but the moment he swings that blade with intent to wound and/or kill unprovoked - that's a fall.
I'd recommend the fall to be immediate. Not necessarily obvious - no booming voices and such, but I'd have observers notice a faint radiant aura around the paladin they didn't notice before. But now they do - because right at that moment it fades away. As for the ex-pal noticing he's screwed up? Most cases he should already be aware of it - whatever he did to cause it must've been deliberate after all. Most noticably however he should notice that the power he relied on till now just doesn't work anymore. Smites don't even initiate, he's more vulnerable when subject to spells, that dumb skeleton suddenly give you goosebumps when you'd just send it back to rest any other day.
So long as the player's alright with it and this is where he/she wants to go...
Look for a signs of a good tipping point (for example, if the player is going with Wrath as the Paladin's deadly sin, plan a good final combat with that enemy your Paladin loves to hate), and then make the lead-up to it dramatic and memorable: thunder, lightning, pouring rain, howling wind... if your player's on the same page you are, he/she will surely take the hook.
After that, I'd play around a bit with various hints, signs, and omens that the shadows have gathered around this Paladin, the protections and benefits of good have been severed, and now darker forces are offering further temptations by offering favors, gifts, and boons to the fallen Paladin.
I wouldn't make all such deal-with-the-devil offers double-edged swords, though: losing Paladin benefits is bad enough, the player should surely get something to to make up for the lost powers, as a reward for good role-playing. (But I'm sure that both you and the player will want make at least some such bargains opportunities for the Paladin to fall even further. It makes for a good story!)
Probably already suggested, but in terms of describing it, I'd probably focus on a particular sense of loss. Where you used to have an overall good feeling, one that you were backed by someone, you're now alone. Like a child severely disappointing their parents to the point of them turning their backs on the kid in shame and any amount of screaming or crying won't get them to stop from walking away from you (although you can be redeemed).
Where you had a hum of power enveloping you, it's gone. Almost like life had gone completely silent. Stuff like that too.
He forgot to tie his shoes
Oh g&+ d~+n you you stole my joke.
Well, then...shortly after Springing.
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By killing goblin babies.
...what? What'd I say? Why's everyone looking at me like—
*Hooked offstage*
~into the pit trap that he failed to see.
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Grease Spell.
Heavily, since they wear heavy armour.
And easily, since most don't put a lot into Dex.
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By killing goblin babies.
...what? What'd I say? Why's everyone looking at me like—
*Hooked offstage*
Indeed.
My Lamashtu worshiping PC won the favor of her CE god, by saving goblin babies, and raising them.
:)
See? Who says we can't all get along? My half-demon paladin would find plenty of common ground there!
Of course he would probably object to the form of 'raising' you'd be doing, as he'd want to teach them more civilized values... but I digress!