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I would expand martial mastery to include all weapons, period.
This makes the fighter easier to play, because there are fewer situational bonuses.
This also makes the fighter more versatile, because he's not locked into a single weapon or even weapon group -- he can be a master of all weapons.
I actually like Fighters being masters of a particular weapon-set. It allows enough variability to be interesting without giving an unconditional bonus (which are actually basically unheard of for class abilities...Barbarians need to Rage, Slayers need to spend their Swift actions and target specific people, Ranger bonuses only work on specific targets, etc.)
I'm also trying to maintain backwards compatibility on Archetypes, which involves not tampering with Weapon Training too much (which I'm comfy with, Weapon Training is a good ability), which makes the whole idea more trouble than it's worth, IMO.
I consider archetypes nothing more then a couple custom feats needing to be devised, so meh.
:)
I don't think letting the fighter get cured by Good Sticks more easily is actually going to change anything. The only game effect will be saving a round or two, or making in combat healing of him slightly more effective.
That's basically it. Cost savings over time will likely be negligible.
==Aelryinth
Huh. I can see ONE thing where it might change the fighter's focus.
IF ANY buff spell cast on him used the fighter's level (which is what I do for potions for the fighter), that makes the fighter the master of consumables all around.
Since he can't cast buff spells...I just figure this to be fair, since he's going to get far more buffs off potions then any other class, except maybe the Barb. ANd the fighter is about using gear to the max, helpful potions should be in the mix.
And he still has to pay for them. But drinking a potion of Divine Favor and getting +3 off it should make other classes envious, if they only get +1! :)
==Aelryinth
Even easier, make one scaling bonus that applies to everything. Call it the "war master's edge" or something. It would be a competence bonus that applies to all weapon attack rolls, weapon damage, CMB/CMD, AC with armor, reducing ACP, DR/- when wearing armor, saving throws, ability and skill checks, leadership score, and effective caster level of potions consumed. It could start at +1 at 3rd level and increase every 4 levels thereafter (+5 at 19th level), and would be the fighter's primary class feature.
That would indeed be pretty simple.
Alas, what would he do with all the other ten+ dead levels now?!?
==Aelryinth
Alas, what would he do with all the other ten+ dead levels now?!==Aelryinth
Ha! We could, I don't know, give him actual out-of-combat class features? Like free leadership, etc.? "At 9th level, you gain one of the following: a loyal mount (griffon, hippogriff, or Pegasus); or equivalent magic item (wings of flying, carpet of flying, or figurine of wondrous power (bronze griffon))." Then you'd be able to get around adequately, and you'd also have incentive to keep up your ranks in either Ride or Fly.
Even easier, make one scaling bonus that applies to everything. Call it the "war master's edge" or something. It would be a competence bonus that applies to all weapon attack rolls, weapon damage, CMB/CMD, AC with armor, reducing ACP, DR/- when wearing armor, saving throws, ability and skill checks, leadership score, and effective caster level of potions consumed. It could start at +1 at 3rd level and increase every 4 levels thereafter (+5 at 19th level), and would be the fighter's primary class feature.
I'd avoid making it a competence bonus, since Inspire Courage also grants competence bonuses to hit and damage.
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Even easier, make one scaling bonus that applies to everything. Call it the "war master's edge" or something. It would be a competence bonus that applies to all weapon attack rolls, weapon damage, CMB/CMD, AC with armor, reducing ACP, DR/- when wearing armor, saving throws, ability and skill checks, leadership score, and effective caster level of potions consumed. It could start at +1 at 3rd level and increase every 4 levels thereafter (+5 at 19th level), and would be the fighter's primary class feature.
This is certainly an interesting idea. It's not very consistent with other Class Designs at all, but if doing a radical redesign of all Classes from the ground up, it sounds like a solid way to simplify some things.
Though I must agree with Kudaku regarding the type of bonus.
I'd change Inspire Courage to a Morale Bonus, makes more sense that way. A Bardsong doesn't change a character's competence, it inspires courage.
That'd power down Bards significantly unless you make Good Hope not a morale bonus (and that spell is the definition of a morale bonus). And Bard doesn't need to be powered down.
Is it safe to say you're trying to address the squishiness of the fighter with these, as well as making them a bit more mobile?
He was using a competence bonus because the fighter is about skill and providing an example, not being the cheerleader and screaming blindly "You can do it!!!"
In other words, the bard is shouting, "You're an awesome swordsman, KILL IT!" and you're like, "Hey, I AM an awesome swordsman, it's so dead!!!"
The fighter is, like, "Watch this, noob!" and he does something, and you're like totally, "That was SO AWESOME, and he made that look soooo easy! I know I can do that, too! JUST WATCH ME SCHOOL THEM!" and you go ahead and do that awesome niche move, too!
Or maybe he's cursing at you to watch your breathing and stay on GD form and stop dropping your bloody shoulder and get back to HIGH GUARD HIGH GUARD YOU IDIOT!!! And you do it, and whoa, it actually works better. It's like the fighter actually knows what he's doing!
Ergo, Competence vs Morale bonus. The fighter is providing an example to emulate, a competence bonus. The bard is making you fight above your level with supernatural power and blind enthusiasm, a morale bonus.
And I wouldn't say its depowering the Bard, it all depends on the level of bonus. It certainly reduces the NEED for the bard, and it makes the fighter a leader on the field of battle. But he's not going to be able to inspire competence fighting in the back row, or singing lullabies like the bard is back there.
==Aelryinth
I've always hated the general reliance on Flying items at higher levels for martials, typically as levels go up they become increasingly easier to dispel. If said item was always treated as having a caster level equal to the Fighter's BAB, I could dig that.
As the most gear reliant of classes, no reason you couldn't do that with ALL of a fighter's gear, including consumables.
==Aelryinth
I see.
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And I wouldn't say its depowering the Bard, it all depends on the level of bonus. It certainly reduces the NEED for the bard, and it makes the fighter a leader on the field of battle. But he's not going to be able to inspire competence fighting in the back row, or singing lullabies like the bard is back there.
Bards currently grant Morale Bonuses with Good Hope and Competence Bonuses with Inspire Courage, and these two stack. Making it so they can't is a serious power-down in almost any remotely balanced version I can think of.
I see.
So what do you think?
Of my most recent version of the fix, not the rather off topic discussion occurring at the moment.
They changed the bard's Inspire Courage from Morale to Competence in the 3.5 ---> Pathfinder transition specifically to avoid the problem that IC was incompatible with tons of bard spells like Good Hope and Heroism. Reversing that change simply "because a morale bonus is more appropriate" seems shortsighted.
If you don't think the bard should grant a competence bonus that's fine, but in that case you should just create a new bonus category. Have Inspire Courage grant an "inspired" bonus instead of morale or competence. The bard can still put up Heroism, Good Hope and Dance of a Hundred/Thousand Cuts with a clean conscience, and your theme issues are put to rest.
Edit:
But he's not going to be able to inspire competence fighting in the back row, or singing lullabies like the bard is back there.
Oh, I think we're talking past one another. I understood the class feature Kirth suggested to only affect the fighter, not everyone around him. Since it's a competence bonus and only affects the fighter, it means that he gains no bonuses from Inspire Courage. Changing the theoretical War master's Edge to be a different bonus type or untyped instead of a competence bonus would be a net buff to the fighter.
Well, since you asked...
First thing, and this is my standard preamble, remember that while praise is awesome and feels great to see someone appreciate your hard work, constructive criticism is useful and helps you identify issues that'll help you grow. So don't take any of this personal, as none of it is meant to be!
Second, more unique to this, is that I personally do not think the fighter needs much if any fixing. However, if I wanted to have that debate, there have been and will be ample opportunities for me to do so in other threads, rather than muck this one up. And given that it's obvious you do think it's necessary to the point of spending a fair chunk of time coming up with a fix, for the purposes of this critique, I'm going to come from the frame of mind that a fix is necessary, so hopefully it'll help you out the most. This also means that I will not be responding to any responses to my post that I think will turn it into a "do they need a fix?" post, as I recognize that a lot of people disagree with me, and there's only so much I can do to minimize my perspective as I'm only human :)
I'll go ability by ability. Most of them are considered from the perspective of only changing them (so, for example in my section about Good Saving Throws, I assume Spell Defense and Indomitable Will exist).
1) Skills: Knowledge (local) makes sense, as does Perception (to a lesser extent, but still enough to fit. Gotta have that situational awareness!). I do not think Sense Motive makes much sense, and nor does the floating class skill. The fighter is all about being great at fighting, and to give them a floating class skill, something even the most skill-focused classes don't get, just feels weird. I'd recommend just adding K(local) and Perception. The base 4 skill points makes sense: the paladin is too focused on saving orphanages to have base 4 ranks, so with all the comparative free time the fighter has, they should probably have a few more skills. But I am curious if it just means they'll dump Int more.
2) Good progression Will saving throw: Personally, I see this as clashing with some of the most popular tropes of the fighter, which are that they are easily corrupted, or they're the tavern drunk, or they're the guy who only knows how to sword and to be just and lets the thinkers do the thinkin'. Throwing aside my personal beliefs, and looking at it from the perspective I said I'd look at it from, I think this is not entirely warranted, as it boosts the baseline quite a bit, and I find weaker abilities that can be optimized to be better designed, as opposed to a very strong baseline.
3) Man Of The World: OK, so this one is trying to solve the problem of out of combat use for the fighter. I'm not a fan of this solution. There's nothing intrinsic to the fighter, someone who fights well, that means that unlike the ranger who used to be a turnip farmer, or the pampered noble who gains roguish tendencies to overcome the doldrums of noble life, the fighter should get bonuses from a "past life". The fact that a fighter of equal level, with equal investment in ranks, equal ability score mods, and equal equipment could be better at a skill than any of the skilled classes is something I find to be overpowered, stealing the spotlight from the skilled classes in the areas they should be good at. If there is a martial/caster disparity, it's in out of combat abilities, so I think this is on a good thematic path to fix the problem, but I'm not a fan of the solution. Perhaps a system where they can trade bonus combat feats for some other effects would work, to keep the "past life" theme up. Instead of focusing purely on combat, the bonus combat feats could be spent on other abilities. The problem is that most such abilities don't really make sense for why they'd be limited to the fighter and no one else. (Ahh, the curse of Ex abilities.) Maybe an idea will form for me by the end of this post.
4) Spell Defense: I find this to be very overpowered, and can't think of any thematic reason for this. "They're tough!" Which is why they have a good Fortitude save and d10 HD, but doesn't explain why they somehow get a +2 untyped bonus on all saving throws. Compared to many other 2nd level abilities, it's very strong. Based on the math presented in the Statistics by CR table for monster creation (very useful table for balancing abilities, btw), a creature with good saving throws should be successfully making about 70% of spells (64% from levels 1-10, 75% from levels 11-20), with creatures with poor saving throws should be making about 48% of them (44.5% levels 1-10, 51.5% levels 11-20). This change, with the Good Will saving throw, totally free and with no additional effort (traits, feats) puts them at about the same percentages as the above averages. To me, one of the hallmarks of good design is having a baseline that is not too good for free, but allowing optimization to get better.
Since, from my perspective, the ability doesn't make much sense thematically, is an untyped bonus to a very broad class of saving throws, and makes them too good for little effort spent, I'm not a fan of it. I get that Bravery is seen as fairly weak, but I also understand the rationale behind it, given how archetypical the corrupted warrior trope is. (Link to the Genius Guide to Bravery Feats. I should disclose that my friend wrote this, but it takes the idea of Bravery and tries to make more feats that play into it, granting new abilities to those who have Bravery. Very interesting take.)
5) Quick Healer: I quite like this. 5e has the second wind ability for fighters, which translated to PF is a swift action once per short rest (1 hour of downtime spent resting) that heals them 1d10+fighter level in HP. This is a similar idea, although primarily for out of combat healing it seems. I'm a bit more partial to the 5e version, given that it allows them to be the tough guy in combat, rather than the guy who just recovers from wounds faster when others heal him out of combat. If I were to recommend a change, it would be something like this:
Quick Recovery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, whenever the fighter regains hit points, he gains an additional hit point per fighter level.
I'm A Tough Guy and/or Girl (Ex): The fighter's ability to resist damage that would fell lesser combatants is legendary. As a swift action, the fighter can heal himself 1d10 + his fighter points of damage (the bonus hit points healed from the Quick Recovery ability have already been factored in). Once the fighter uses this ability, he cannot use it again until he spends at least 1 hour in quiet rest or leisure activity, or until the next day, whichever comes first.
The advantage of Quick Recovery is that it's much simpler, and doesn't require the GM or players to keep track of the CL of various abilities, wands, etc. No more "Uhhh, thanks for the healing, but what's the CL of the ability?"
6) Martial Mastery: Good ability. Should reference the fighter weapon groups from the Weapon Training ability, but that's just my developer hat talking, and for a house rule, it's not really necessary to say this, as you know what it means. This is just mostly to get you to think a bit more like a developer if you decide to jump into 3pp or what not.
7) Complete immunity to fear is a bit much IMO. The fighter should be great against fear, as they are brave. That's what they be, yo. But I think this is just too much. I like the idea of reducing the effects of fear for non-magical sources. I generally consider hard counters to abilities to be poor design decisions. Why should a level 6 fighter be immune to Cthulhu's Unspeakable Presence ability? I think removing the immunity to magical fear would make for a better designed ability, but even then, what is essentially immunity to shaken is pretty strong too. Perhaps an ability like this would be better:
Don't Afraid O' Nuttin' (Ex): At 6th level, the fighter's fearlessness allows them to ignore the things that would cause lesser men to tremble in fear. In addition, the fighter shifts all fear effects down a level (so cowering becomes panicked, panicked becomes frightened, frightened becomes shaken). The fighter still counts as having the highest fear level they would've been affected with, but instead have the effects of the previous fear level. If an effect would cause the fighter to just be shaken, the fighter ignores all penalties of the Shaken condition, but still counts as having it for the purposes of stacking fear effects to produce a stronger version of the fear effect. If they are ignoring the penalties of Shaken, and are affected by a fear effect that would make them Frightened (which would essentially change them to be suffering the effects of Shaken), they gain a bonus on the saving throw or on the DC equal to 1/4th their fighter level. If the fighter would have been frightened, but that was turned into Shaken due to the above reduction in fear level, they still suffer the full effects of shaken. At 13th level, all penalties applied by fear effects are reduced by half.
That ability isn't entirely clear, and if I ever submitted that for publication, the developer would probably track me down and hit me with the core rulebook, but I think it's Clear Enough For Houserules (TM) and I'm already putting a ton of effort into this post, so forgive the slight laziness :)
(Explanation: If you are Shaken by an ability, you ignore the effects. If you are shaken again, despite the bonus to the saving throw / DC, which would normally cause you to become Frightened, you are instead Shaken and suffer the effects of that. If you get shaken AGAIN by an ability that can escalate fear levels, you are now frightened.)
This makes it so they can still be killed by Cthulhu (a plus in my book), but also have a fairly unique ability that makes them more resilient. Sure, there nerves can be tested, but they are able to be brave, even while afraid. Gotta put that good face on for the rest of the party, so they don't high tail it and run.
8) Mobile Warrior: I don't think this is necessary, and it doesn't solve the main problems fighters have vis a vis other martial classes. Plus, it's like 4 feats in 1, and if the fighter wanted to be a mobile fighter, they could definitely just invest the feats. I will slap anyone who says the fighter is feat starved, btw. I feel that the fighter's ability to move at full speed in medium and heavy armor is sufficient for this purpose, giving them some bonuses other classes would love to have.
9) Resilience: Yea, this one makes sense.
10) Inspiration to Others: I really don't like this one, as it's really powerful, always on with a large range, and doesn't require expending any resources (like the bard's abilities). I do like the idea of a fighting type inspiring his allies (I wrote the Exemplar brawler archetype, after all), but I think this is the wrong way to go about doing it.
11) By itself, without the good Will progression or Spell Defense, yea sure. With one or the other, maybe. With both, I really don't think this is necessary and verges on too strong.
12) Warrior's Eye: This is a really weird ability. Suddenly you can spot who the high level assassin is, even though they rolled a 60 on their disguise and stealth checks to blend into the crowd of 200 people in front of you. Some people are really wary of giving away metagame information, so they wouldn't like this, and at this level even with just a CRB only fighter, it just takes 2 full attacks at most to kill a CR equal creature and you don't need no HP monitoring to tell that, so it's just....odd. But I guess it is fairly high level.
13) Combat Mastery: Well that's certainly all of the sudden. But, level 18, so, meh. Should be fine, although I think it would be better if it scaled up, rather than auto-awesome at 18th level.
14) Flattening of scaling abilities in archetypes. I strongly dislike this, as there are very, very good balance reasons for why abilities scale and aren't just flat huge bonuses. The game does assume certain statistics at a given level, and +5 to whatever at this level gets really ridiculous, as it throws off the balance for a good number of levels. Especially ones that add to CMB or AC.
15) TWF feat changes and related archetype changes: I think these might be OK. TWF on fighter is very strong, and quickly can get to straight up overpowered, why-do-I-even-both-doing-anything-else-with-the-kukri-dude-in-the-party levels, but that entirely relies upon full attacks, and TWF is theoretically balanced out by the penalties to hit. Except for the fighter, he's meant to be one of the most consistent hitters, and his damage soars with the number of extra attacks they make. On the flipside, it is pretty lame to not be able to use the feats you invested in to do that cool move and double slice thing that looks B.A. in films. On the flipflipside, it really messes with THF being the king of "can move and still hit hard", as with all the bonuses to damage the fighter gets, the two attacks should easily outpace the THF.
Just things to consider for those changes.
OVERALL:
I think there are some really cool ideas in here, but overall, I feel that it's way too much, even with me in the mindset that a fix is necessary. My main gripes were with all the saves and auto-immunity features, as well as the number of features that made them very good as a baseline, with no optimization necessary. I also don't find the out of combat solution satisfactory, although unfortunately I haven't come up with anything else, even this far down the post.
Even with just the skill ranks and K(Local)/Perception, Quick Healer, Martial Mastery, the toned down version of fearless, resilience, indomitable will, warrior's eye, and combat mastery, I think it's a solid boost to the fighter.
This has definitely given me a lot to think over since I read this yesterday, and I'm now even coming up with some loose abilities to better fit the themes of the fighter while not being what I would consider overpowered.
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Well, since you asked...
I did, and I'm glad I did. :)
First thing, and this is my standard preamble, remember that while praise is awesome and feels great to see someone appreciate your hard work, constructive criticism is useful and helps you identify issues that'll help you grow. So don't take any of this personal, as none of it is meant to be!
I actually agree entirely, and very much appreciate constructive feedback. Let me thank you in advance for giving it.
Second, more unique to this, is that I personally do not think the fighter needs much if any fixing. However, if I wanted to have that debate, there have been and will be ample opportunities for me to do so in other threads, rather than muck this one up. And given that it's obvious you do think it's necessary to the point of spending a fair chunk of time coming up with a fix, for the purposes of this critique, I'm going to come from the frame of mind that a fix is necessary, so hopefully it'll help you out the most. This also means that I will not be responding to any responses to my post that I think will turn it into a "do they need a fix?" post, as I recognize that a lot of people disagree with me, and there's only so much I can do to minimize my perspective as I'm only human :)
Even better! Almost all the feedback in disagreement with me up until now has been from people who think my fix doesn't go far enough. Some input from the other perspective should be very helpful.
I'll go ability by ability. Most of them are considered from the perspective of only changing them (so, for example in my section about Good Saving Throws, I assume Spell Defense and Indomitable Will exist).
Noted. I'll respond from the same perspective.
1) Skills: Knowledge (local) makes sense, as does Perception (to a lesser extent, but still enough to fit. Gotta have that situational awareness!). I do not think Sense Motive makes much sense, and nor does the floating class skill. The fighter is all about being great at fighting, and to give them a floating class skill, something even the most skill-focused classes don't get, just feels weird. I'd recommend just adding K(local) and Perception. The base 4 skill points makes sense: the paladin is too focused on saving orphanages to have base 4 ranks, so with all the comparative free time the fighter has, they should probably have a few more skills. But I am curious if it just means they'll dump Int more.
Sense Motive was by far the one I was most iffy on. It eventually got added for two reasons, the first being that the Brawler has it (and I see no thematic reason she would and the Fighter wouldn't), and the second being that I thought the Fighter should be very good at predicting when someone was about to behave in a violent manner, at least potentially. In my mind, the Fighter is by far the most appropriate class for a standard run of the mill bodyguard, and Sense Motive (particularly the hunch mechanic) is integral to a bodyguard's job.
The Floating Class skill is to represent that in many ways the Fighter is by far the most variable Class in terms of what themes it's intended to represent. Many other Classes have strong themes that their skill list represents, but the Fighter? He's just some guy who knows how to use a sword. What kind of guy? Well, that varies by the Fighter, and it seems useful to have a mechanic like this to define what sort of guy. It's worth less than half a Feat, too, so I don't feel too bad about adding it.
2) Good progression Will saving throw: Personally, I see this as clashing with some of the most popular tropes of the fighter, which are that they are easily corrupted, or they're the tavern drunk, or they're the guy who only knows how to sword and to be just and lets the thinkers do the thinkin'. Throwing aside my personal beliefs, and looking at it from the perspective I said I'd look at it from, I think this is not entirely warranted, as it boosts the baseline quite a bit, and I find weaker abilities that can be optimized to be better designed, as opposed to a very strong baseline.
Eh. Thematically, Wizards (who also have high will Saves at a base) are easily as corruptible as Fighters, the lure of power and them succumbing to the temptation for black magic are far more integral to their theme than being the tavern drunk is to a Fighter. I agree that generally they let "thinkers do the thinkin'", but intellect has little to do with strength of will, and stubbornness is a vital part of the basic archetype of the mundane warrior, I mean look at just about every action movie hero ever.
I agree that it raises the baseline as well, but the baseline in question remains somewhat lower than Paladin, and no more than even with Barbarian (who can pull ahead really easily with Superstition). It's a bit higher (Save-wise) than Ranger, Brawler, or Slayer...but those Classes have other things going for them in other areas.
3) Man Of The World: OK, so this one is trying to solve the problem of out of combat use for the fighter. I'm not a fan of this solution. There's nothing intrinsic to the fighter, someone who fights well, that means that unlike the ranger who used to be a turnip farmer, or the pampered noble who gains roguish tendencies to overcome the doldrums of noble life, the fighter should get bonuses from a "past life". The fact that a fighter of equal level, with equal investment in ranks, equal ability score mods, and equal equipment could be better at a skill than any of the skilled classes is something I find to be overpowered, stealing the spotlight from the skilled classes in the areas they should be good at. If there is a martial/caster disparity, it's in out of combat abilities, so I think this is on a good thematic path to fix the problem, but I'm not a fan of the solution. Perhaps a system where they can trade bonus combat feats for some other effects would work, to keep the "past life" theme up. Instead of focusing purely on combat, the bonus combat feats could be spent on other abilities. The problem is that most such abilities don't really make sense for why they'd be limited to the fighter and no one else. (Ahh, the curse of Ex abilities.) Maybe an idea will form for me by the end of this post.
Well, Slayer's already get a bonus on par with this one on 8 separate skills most of the time, and Rangers get something similar vs. Favored Enemies. Rogues get Skill Unlocks (in my games, from level 1), and Bards get both Versatile Performance and Bardic Knowledge (and various Archetypes can replace the latter with far bigger bonuses to certain skills than the Fighter gets).
All that said, I might well add this mechanic to the Rogue as well (to go with their Skill Unlocks). Huh. I actually really like that idea, it's totally getting added. That'd give it to the two classic 'mundane' classes who normally get no bonus on skills, which seems a solid route to go.
4) Spell Defense: I find this to be very overpowered, and can't think of any thematic reason for this. "They're tough!" Which is why they have a good Fortitude save and d10 HD, but doesn't explain why they somehow get a +2 untyped bonus on all saving throws. Compared to many other 2nd level abilities, it's very strong. Based on the math presented in the Statistics by CR table for monster creation (very useful table for balancing abilities, btw), a creature with good saving throws should be successfully making about 70% of spells (64% from levels 1-10, 75% from levels 11-20), with creatures with poor saving throws should be making about 48% of them (44.5% levels 1-10, 51.5% levels 11-20). This change, with the Good Will saving throw, totally free and with no additional effort (traits, feats) puts them at about the same percentages as the above averages. To me, one of the hallmarks of good design is having a baseline that is not too good for free, but allowing optimization to get better.
Since, from my perspective, the ability doesn't make much sense thematically, is an untyped bonus to a very broad class of saving throws, and makes them too good for little effort spent, I'm not a fan of it. I get that Bravery is seen as fairly weak, but I also understand the rationale behind it, given how archetypical the corrupted warrior trope is. (Link to the Genius Guide to Bravery Feats. I should disclose that my friend wrote this, but it takes the idea of Bravery and tries to make more feats that play into it, granting new abilities to those who have Bravery. Very interesting take.)
Spell Defense is actually identical in power level to a Feat. Specifically, the Steel Soul Feat. That requires being a Dwarf, but getting a Feat and ignoring prerequisites, while cool, isn't as game breaking as you're implying.
That said, I'm not against dropping it, except that I'd need something else worth about a single Feat for Archetypes to replace to maintain backwards compatibility. Any suggestions?
5) Quick Healer: I quite like this. 5e has the second wind ability for fighters, which translated to PF is a swift action once per short rest (1 hour of downtime spent resting) that heals them 1d10+fighter level in HP. This is a similar idea, although primarily for out of combat healing it seems. I'm a bit more partial to the 5e version, given that it allows them to be the tough guy in combat, rather than the guy who just recovers from wounds faster when others heal him out of combat. If I were to recommend a change, it would be something like this:
Quick Recovery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, whenever the fighter regains hit points, he gains an additional hit point per fighter level.
I'm A Tough Guy and/or Girl (Ex): The fighter's ability to resist damage that would fell lesser combatants is legendary. As a swift action, the fighter can heal himself 1d10 + his fighter points of damage (the bonus hit points healed from the Quick Recovery ability have already been factored in). Once the fighter uses this ability, he cannot use it again until he spends at least 1 hour in quiet rest or leisure activity, or until the next day, whichever comes first.
The advantage of Quick Recovery is that it's much simpler, and doesn't require the GM or players to keep track of the CL of various abilities, wands, etc. No more "Uhhh, thanks for the healing, but what's the CL of the ability?"
Alright, alright, I've been talked into it on Quick Healer, though I'm probably keeping it at 3rd level.
As for a Second Wind mechanic, I strongly considered it having liked it on the 5E Fighter, but feel that, in Pathfinder, instant healing is one of those things you just can't have as an Extraordinary ability. The system is sorta set up to regard instant healing as magical, and I feel like I have to go with that. Also, there's a space issue, though I guess I could theoretically find somewhere to fit it.
6) Martial Mastery: Good ability. Should reference the fighter weapon groups from the Weapon Training ability, but that's just my developer hat talking, and for a house rule, it's not really necessary to say this, as you know what it means. This is just mostly to get you to think a bit more like a developer if you decide to jump into 3pp or what not.
Thanks, it's all Kudaku's idea, but I'm really happy with it.
And, amusingly, I literally stole the phrasing, word for word, from the official Paizo Feat of the same name.
7) Complete immunity to fear is a bit much IMO. The fighter should be great against fear, as they are brave. That's what they be, yo. But I think this is just too much. I like the idea of reducing the effects of fear for non-magical sources. I generally consider hard counters to abilities to be poor design decisions. Why should a level 6 fighter be immune to Cthulhu's Unspeakable Presence ability? I think removing the immunity to magical fear would make for a better designed ability, but even then, what is essentially immunity to shaken is pretty strong too. Perhaps an ability like this would be better:
Don't Afraid O' Nuttin' (Ex): At 6th level, the fighter's fearlessness allows them to ignore the things that would cause lesser men to tremble in fear. In addition, the fighter shifts all fear effects down a level (so cowering becomes panicked, panicked becomes frightened, frightened becomes shaken). The fighter still counts as having the highest fear level they would've been affected with, but instead have the effects of the previous fear level. If an effect would cause the fighter to just be shaken, the fighter ignores all penalties of the Shaken condition, but still counts as having it for the purposes of stacking fear effects to produce a stronger version of the fear effect. If they are ignoring the penalties of Shaken, and are affected by a fear effect that would make them Frightened (which would essentially change them to be suffering the effects of Shaken), they gain a bonus on the saving throw or on the DC equal to 1/4th their fighter level. If the fighter would have been frightened, but that was turned into Shaken due to the above reduction in fear level, they still suffer the full effects of shaken. At 13th level, all penalties applied by fear effects are reduced by half.
That ability isn't entirely clear, and if I ever submitted that for publication, the developer would probably track me down and hit me with the core rulebook, but I think it's Clear Enough For Houserules (TM) and I'm already putting a ton of effort into this post, so forgive the slight laziness :)
(Explanation: If you are Shaken by an ability, you ignore the effects. If you are shaken again, despite the bonus to the saving throw / DC, which would normally cause you to become Frightened, you are instead Shaken and suffer the effects of that. If you get shaken AGAIN by an ability that can escalate fear levels, you are now frightened.)
This makes it so they can still be killed by Cthulhu (a plus in my book), but also have a fairly unique ability that makes them more resilient. Sure, there nerves can be tested, but they are able to be brave, even while afraid. Gotta put that good face on for the rest of the party, so they don't high tail it and run.
Hmmm. Interesting point on Cthulhu, though the Fighter could still be Staggered, which seems reasonable. After all, Paladins aren't killed by Cthulhu's fear effect, and Fighters being almost as brave as Paladins was sorta where I was aiming for with that ability. Nevertheless, I do like the decreasing of fear level mechanic, and might be willing to just go with that. Let me think about it.
8) Mobile Warrior: I don't think this is necessary, and it doesn't solve the main problems fighters have vis a vis other martial classes. Plus, it's like 4 feats in 1, and if the fighter wanted to be a mobile fighter, they could definitely just invest the feats. I will slap anyone who says the fighter is feat starved, btw. I feel that the fighter's ability to move at full speed in medium and heavy armor is sufficient for this purpose, giving them some bonuses other classes would love to have.
I really like the idea of 10 foot steps as a thing somebody gets, though, and Fighters are a good candidate (maybe Swashbuckler, too). It's a unique mechanic not seen elsewhere, and perhaps the only such I've added. It's powerful, but that's really sorta the point in many ways.
I do agree that Fighters aren't Feat starved, though.
9) Resilience: Yea, this one makes sense.
I thought so. :)
10) Inspiration to Others: I really don't like this one, as it's really powerful, always on with a large range, and doesn't require expending any resources (like the bard's abilities). I do like the idea of a fighting type inspiring his allies (I wrote the Exemplar brawler archetype, after all), but I think this is the wrong way to go about doing it.
Very possibly. I was never very happy about that one. It'd be pretty easy to convince me to drop it for something else.
11) By itself, without the good Will progression or Spell Defense, yea sure. With one or the other, maybe. With both, I really don't think this is necessary and verges on too strong.
That's possible, though they still wind up behind a Superstition Barbarian quite a bit.
12) Warrior's Eye: This is a really weird ability. Suddenly you can spot who the high level assassin is, even though they rolled a 60 on their disguise and stealth checks to blend into the crowd of 200 people in front of you. Some people are really wary of giving away metagame information, so they wouldn't like this, and at this level even with just a CRB only fighter, it just takes 2 full attacks at most to kill a CR equal creature and you don't need no HP monitoring to tell that, so it's just....odd. But I guess it is fairly high level.
Slayer's have an existing Talent (Blood Reader, from Advancd Class Origins) that does the same for HP only, which is just as good for the stuff you list and available at 2nd level. I feel like Blood Reader's maybe too powerful, but don't feel a slightly better version at 16th is a problem.
13) Combat Mastery: Well that's certainly all of the sudden. But, level 18, so, meh. Should be fine, although I think it would be better if it scaled up, rather than auto-awesome at 18th level.
Kensai get something similar at 19th after almost nothing in that vein for quite a while. Still, you have a point. If I ditch Inspiration To Others I'll need something for 12th level...maybe an initiative boost would work.
14) Flattening of scaling abilities in archetypes. I strongly dislike this, as there are very, very good balance reasons for why abilities scale and aren't just flat huge bonuses. The game does assume certain statistics at a given level, and +5 to whatever at this level gets really ridiculous, as it throws off the balance for a good number of levels. Especially ones that add to CMB or AC.
Eh. I was looking at them, and many Archetypes don't give anything all that good in exchange for bravery, still, you have a distinct point with those involving CMB or AC. I'll whip something a bit more balanced up. Probably still keeping flat bonuses, but having them be more +2 than +5.
15) TWF feat changes and related archetype changes: I think these might be OK. TWF on fighter is very strong, and quickly can get to straight up overpowered, why-do-I-even-both-doing-anything-else-with-the-kukri-dude-in-the-party levels, but that entirely relies upon full attacks, and TWF is theoretically balanced out by the penalties to hit. Except for the fighter, he's meant to be one of the most consistent hitters, and his damage soars with the number of extra attacks they make. On the flipside, it is pretty lame to not be able to use the feats you invested in to do that cool move and double slice thing that looks B.A. in films. On the flipflipside, it really messes with THF being the king of "can move and still hit hard", as with all the bonuses to damage the fighter gets, the two attacks should easily outpace the THF.
Just things to consider for those changes.
TWF is way more Feat intensive than two-handing, though, which is why I feel it works out okay if it's slightly better, since the two-handing guy can burn Feats and keep up.
Besides, the Two-Weapon Warrior could already do it. That bit is primarily a buff to non-Fighters who TWF (especially Rogues), it's just there to explain why I altered that specific Archetype in that way.
OVERALL:
I think there are some really cool ideas in here, but overall, I feel that it's way too much, even with me in the mindset that a fix is necessary. My main gripes were with all the saves and auto-immunity features, as well as the number of features that made them very good as a baseline, with no optimization necessary. I also don't find the out of combat solution satisfactory, although unfortunately I haven't come up with anything else, even this far down the post.
Yeah...I'm not entirely happy with just adding to skills as a non-combat feature either. As for the defensive stuff, it may be a bit too much, you're right. Perhaps I'll scale back a bit if I can figure out something to add at 2nd level.
Even with just the skill ranks and K(Local)/Perception, Quick Healer, Martial Mastery, the toned down version of fearless, resilience, indomitable will, warrior's eye, and combat mastery, I think it's a solid boost to the fighter.
I'm probably gonna keep a bit more than that, I suspect...but ditching Inspiration To Others and Spell Defenses is definitely a possibility, as is weakening Fearless.
This has definitely given me a lot to think over since I read this yesterday, and I'm now even coming up with some loose abilities to better fit the themes of the fighter while not being what I would consider overpowered.
Please share! I'd be very interested in hearing some other properly thematic options.
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You know, the more I think about it, the more I think that - other than maybe 4 skill points/level and a couple extra class skills - most of what I would want out of a fighter "fix" would be to make the unbreakable fighter archetype the baseline, but keeping most of the regular fighter class abilities as well (slotting the unbreakable stuff in at some of the emptier levels).
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So, here are my thoughts after that discussion:
The Fighter Class:
The Fighter receives 4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per level. They receive Knowledge (Local) Perception, and Sense Motive as additional class skills as well as a Good Will Save Progression. They do not possess the Bravery Class Feature, receiving the following features instead:
Man of the World (Ex): At 1st level, a Fighter defines his role in the world outside of combat, whether as simple farmer, gladiatorial champion, professional soldier, or pampered aristocrat. He picks one skill to add to his class skill list, and then selects one skill from that newly expanded skill list. When using this skill, the Fighter may add a +1 bonus. At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter they may apply this bonus to an additional Class Skill, and the bonus increases by an additional +1, to a maximum of +5 (and five skills effected) at 20th level.
Trained Reflexes (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Initiative checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd.
Quick Healer (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever the Fighter is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, he heals 1 additional point of damage per Fighter level he possesses. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing or from uses of the Heal skill. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Martial Mastery (Ex): At 4th level, each combat feat the Fighter has that applies to a specific weapon (e.g., Weapon Focus) can be used with all weapons in the same weapon group.
Courageous (Ex): At 6th level, a Fighter reduces the severity of all fear effects that are applied to him by one degree (so shaken effects go away, frightened effects are reduced to shaken, and panicked effects are reduced to frightened). The conditions still technically retain their normal severity for stacking purposes (and only for stacking).
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Fighter gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. He may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.
Resilience (Ex): At 10th level, a Fighter can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely.
Always Ready (Ex): At 12th level, the Fighter can always act in a surprise round even if he does not notice his enemies, though he remains flat-footed until he acts.
Indomitable Will (Ex): At 14th level, a Fighter gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, and this feature is identical to the Barbarian Class Feature of the same name.
Warrior's Eye (Ex): At 16th level, the Fighter is constantly aware of the battle prowess of those around him, as well as their current health, from subtle cues of movement and expression, and knows both the Base Attack Bonus and current Hit Points of all people he can see.
Combat Mastery (Ex): At 18th level, a Fighter is never considered an unaware combatant and is never considered flat-footed (though he may still lose his Dex bonus to Armor Class). Additionally, he is considered to always roll a 20 on initiative checks.
Archetypes that replace Bravery, replace the Trained Reflexes Class Feature instead.
The Unbreakable Fighter gains Improved Resilience on Fortitude Saves at 13th, as Resilience stacks with Stalwart.
Lore Wardens replace Quick Healer and all instances of Armor Training with their listed Maneuver Mastery progression. They replace Trained Reflexes with Expertise, Courageous with Know Thy Enemy (which they receive at 6th level), Resilience with Hair’s Breadth (which they receive at 10th), and Indomitable with Swift Lore.
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Well done DMW.
It's not nearly as powerful as I would make for my own game, but in the context of core pathfinder it certainly lacks that 'looking for an opportunity to multiclass out' feeling I always got when playing a PF Fighter [yes that includes Archetypes.]
Thank you very much. :)
That's definitely the goal I was aiming for.
1) Skills: Knowledge (local) makes sense, as does Perception (to a lesser extent, but still enough to fit. Gotta have that situational awareness!). I do not think Sense Motive makes much sense, and nor does the floating class skill.Sense Motive was by far the one I was most iffy on. It eventually got added for two reasons, the first being that the Brawler has it (and I see no thematic reason she would and the Fighter wouldn't), and the second being that I thought the Fighter should be very good at predicting when someone was about to behave in a violent manner, at least potentially. In my mind, the Fighter is by far the most appropriate class for a standard run of the mill bodyguard, and Sense Motive (particularly the hunch mechanic) is integral to a bodyguard's job.
If Sense Motive hadn't already been added, I would probably have suggested adding it in my first post. Both because of the bodyguard function but also because Sense Motive is the more reliable counter to feinting, which is crucial for 'duelist' fighters. In my opinion fighters should be harder to juke than barbarians and rangers.
Thanks, it's all Kudaku's idea, but I'm really happy with it.
And, amusingly, I literally stole the phrasing, word for word, from the official Paizo Feat of the same name.
I think we've come full circle! I got the idea after reading Martial Mastery and thinking: Fantastic! This is EXACTLY what the fighter needs to be less weapon-dependent!
...And then I read the prerequisites.
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If Sense Motive hadn't already been added, I would probably have suggested adding it in my first post. Both because of the bodyguard function but also because Sense Motive is the more reliable counter to feinting, which is crucial for 'duelist' fighters. In my opinion fighters should be harder to juke than barbarians and rangers.
An excellent point and additional reason for them to have it.
I think we've come full circle! I got the idea after reading Martial Mastery and thinking: Fantastic! This is EXACTLY what the fighter needs to be less weapon-dependent!
Indeed! That's precisely why I went and copied the text. :)
I'm lazy, no need to reinvent the wheel, so if I'm gonna duplicate an ability, I'll also be duplicating the text (see also: Resilience, Always Ready, which steals from the Sohei, and Indomitable Will).
...And then I read the prerequisites.
Yeah...those are, well, we'll go with 'excessive'.
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It has occurred to me that Fighter-based Classes from the ACG should probably get a few of these abilities, so I'll list those here as well (plus my preexisting Swashbuckler House Rules):
Brawler: Brawlers receive the following additional Class Abilities:
Quick Healer (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever the Brawler is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, she heals 1 additional point of damage per Brawler level she possesses. Additionally, she heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing or from uses of the Heal skill. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 7th level, a Brawler gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. She may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain.
Warrior's Eye (Ex): At 14th level, the Brawler is constantly aware of the battle prowess of those around her, as well as their current health, from subtle cues of movement and expression, and knows both the Base Attack Bonus and current Hit Points of all people she can see.
Swashbuckler: The Charmed Life class Feature is entirely replaced with the following (also called Charmed Life):
At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:
The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.
At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.
Additionally, the Swashbuckler receives the following additional Class Features:
Courageous (Ex): At 4th level, a Swashbuckler reduces the severity of all fear effects that are applied to her by one degree (so shaken effects go away, frightened effects are reduced to shaken, and panicked effects are reduced to frightened). The conditions still technically retain their normal severity for stacking purposes (and only for stacking).
Mobile Warrior (Ex): At 8th level, a Swashbuckler gains a +10 foot bonus to movement speed, and may make 10 foot steps instead of 5 foot steps whenever a 5 foot step would ordinarily be allowed. She may also make 5 foot (though not 10 foot) steps in difficult terrain
Always Ready (Ex): At 12th level, the Swashbuckler can always act in a surprise round even if she does not notice his enemies, though he remains flat-footed until he acts.
Warrior's Eye (Ex): At 16th level, the Swashbuckler is constantly aware of the battle prowess of those around her, as well as their current health, from subtle cues of movement and expression, and knows both the Base Attack Bonus and current Hit Points of all people she can see.
The Mysterious Avenger archetype receives another instance of the revised Charmed Life ability at 4th level instead of 3 uses of the official version. Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of this version of Charmed Life.
Warpriest: Sacred Weapon may be activated as a Free Action, and operates in 1 minute as opposed to 1 round increments. Sacred Armor may also be activated as a Free Action. They receive the following additional abilities:
Quick Healer (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever the Warpriest is subject to a spell that cures hit point damage, she heals 1 additional point of damage per Warpriest level he possesses. Additionally, he heals double the normal amount of hit point and ability damage per day of natural healing or from uses of the Heal skill. This ability does not affect fast healing or regeneration.
Courageous (Ex): At 6th level, a Warpriest reduces the severity of all fear effects that are applied to him by one degree (so shaken effects go away, frightened effects are reduced to shaken, and panicked effects are reduced to frightened). The conditions still technically retain their normal severity for stacking purposes (and only for stacking).
Resilience (Ex): At 9th level, a Warpriest can shake off the physical effects of certain attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely..
The Sacred Fist Archetype uses the Unchained Monk’s version of Flurry of Blows, and receives a bonus Style Feat at 9th level (as Resilience is already covered by that Archetype).
Sorry, I won't be able to respond to each thing in that post. I will respond to the final question though. But first, a slight tangent.
I ran the numbers on Poor will saves, and given just 1 feat and 1 trait, 10 base Wis, as well as standard headband / cloak of resistances at normalish levels, the fighter will be looking at a 50% success rate on the primary DCs a creature should have. This holds true to the NPCs of the NPC Codex. 50% is pretty good, meaning that by investing what-to-the-fighter-is-minimum-resources, the spellcaster has an even chance of failing to do anything to them. (Good progression bumps it up to be about 75% success rate.) This seems to imply that given the assumption of the Big 6 (<shakefist!>), Poor saves were meant to succeed around 33% of the time, so going from 2/3 to 1/2 is pretty decent, especially when the track is labeled "Poor".
The problem from saves, then, comes from GMs building NPCs as PCs, and ignoring the rules for average statistics by CR. When you build a level 15 NPC wizard as a PC would (albeit with the elite array, starting at 17 Int post-racial bonus), they're probably going to have a save DC of 28-29 for your primary school and highest spell levels. If you maximize Int at start, so you have 20, that's going to be 30 as the DC.
When the game assumes, and remember, these assumptions are what the Good / Poor saves tracks are based on, that the DC of a CR 15 NPC's primary abilities is 23, yea, a 7 point split in the excepted DCs and the ones of the optimized caster that's being thrown against the party, there will be problems. Even a CR 17 NPC should have a primary ability DC of around 24, so for a very hard fight for the level 15 party, there's still a 6 point difference in what the DC should be.
Of course there will be problems when GMs are throwing things at the party that so strongly divert from the core assumptions of the game. The same sort of problems would come up if the GM decided to deviate from the rules and give all NPCs an extra set of actions each turn.
So I view the low saves of a class not primarily a problem of the class, but mostly with the GM deviating so strongly from the rules that informed the assumptions. At the very least, the "their saves suck!" argument can be made about every single class that has a poor progression saving throw, and that alone should hint that something else is going on.
I don't have a good solution for the issue with out of combat ability. Personally, I think it makes sense that they aren't all that good out of combat, given their sheer focus in combat. (And what I find amusing is that no one complains about Street Samurais in Shadowrun being useless outside of combat.) But I still think the base 4 skill ranks per level make sense. One thing that came to mind was fixing the problem by using certain types of campaigns.
Say eventually the party gets in charge of an army. Suddenly the fighter's Profession (soldier) ranks mean he's the best at leading the army to go fight the orcs. (Next thought: Maybe they should get their level in ranks to Profession (Soldier). Next next thought: Why would an adventurer who isn't a soldier have ranks in being a soldier.)
The other thought I had was maybe a system where you could trade bonus combat feats in. A number of classes get bonus combat feats, representing combat ability, and this alternative system could present a way to focus your characters on non-combat things, unlike most other characters of the given class. I'm not thinking up anything that actually makes thematic sense, but perhaps others place different emphasis on that.
In the end, I'd probably make changes that would play up the aspects of the fighter identified in the blurb.
Something like adding K(Local) and Perception, bumping the skill ranks to 4, and then adding an ability that gives them a bonus equal to their level on all skill checks related to armor, weapons, and war. And then expand Profession (Soldier) / Profession (Fighter) to allow identification of various things, and then clamp down on giving away metagame info in other ways.
While reading this version above, I had the rough idea of a toughness pool. Probably same point values as the monk's ki pool, just based off of Constitution. My original idea was something along the lines of free action that can be taken out of turn to spend some points to reduce damage from an attack by 1d6 per point spent. Spend 2 points to add 1d6 to a saving throw. 4 to try and shake off a failed save 1 round after you failed it (even if you are mind-controlled, at the end of your turn, can only be done once per effect). Something like that. Haven't put much if any further thought into that though, so shrug. But it does play up the toughness aspect without being too complicated.
And since I'm seeing most of the issues people are saying the fighter has as not a problem with the fighter, so much as the rest of the system (GMs ignoring the guidelines that define how difficult things should be, other classes being too good at combat and out of combat things, etc), I'd probably try to give the fighter something really unique that changes how full-attack actions work. Wouldn't be pounce.
I don't think they need more bonuses to hit or to deal more damage. Probably an ability that makes them more "sticky". If you want to get away from the fighter who is facing you, you're going to have to either roll really well, or he's going to have to decide to leave you alone. Or maybe an ability that makes them count as larger than their real size (increases as you level), so that combat maneuvers don't become impossihard after 13th level. Essentially, this ability would be something to play up the control of the battlefield aspect of the fighter. They can get this already, especially with the various critical hit abilities, but those are fairly late in the game.
Probably also allow them to retrain the past 3 or more likely, starting at 1 and increasing to 3, bonus combat feats they selected, by spending an hour practicing the new ones. Once per day. This would reflect how they've studied combat more so than others. It'd be a bit like the brawler's ability, but with reduced flexibility.
If I was wanting to change the fighter, those abilities are probably where I'd start my quest at, and refine them from there.
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Sorry, I won't be able to respond to each thing in that post. I will respond to the final question though. But first, a slight tangent.
Sure! Thanks for going through it to the extent you have. :)
Saving Throws
A 50% chance to resist Dominate Monster or other 'this wrecks you for an entire combat' spells is not good. Especially on a front-line combatant. It's not character-breakingly awful, but on the other hand, why should the Slayer have better Saves than the Fighter? They're, thematically, better at offense and worse on defense, and yet mechanically that's not borne out. Barbarians are likewise much better on Saves with little justification.
I don't have a good solution for the issue with out of combat ability. Personally, I think it makes sense that they aren't all that good out of combat, given their sheer focus in combat. (And what I find amusing is that no one complains about Street Samurais in Shadowrun being useless outside of combat.)
Well, the issue with this idea is that Fighters aren't better than, say, Slayers or Barbarians in combat, so them being worse outside it is a flat downside.
In Shadowrun, you actually are directly shifting focus from combat to non-combat. From the same pool of points, even. And besides, I've yet to play an edition of Shadowrun where I can't make myself a Street Samurai/Face who's excellent at both his jobs.
But I still think the base 4 skill ranks per level make sense. One thing that came to mind was fixing the problem by using certain types of campaigns.
I'm glad we're in agreement on that at least. :)
Say eventually the party gets in charge of an army. Suddenly the fighter's Profession (soldier) ranks mean he's the best at leading the army to go fight the orcs. (Next thought: Maybe they should get their level in ranks to Profession (Soldier). Next next thought: Why would an adventurer who isn't a soldier have ranks in being a soldier.)
Yeah, the issue with this is that the same applies to literally any Profession, and that any Profession can be purchased by any Class.
The other thought I had was maybe a system where you could trade bonus combat feats in. A number of classes get bonus combat feats, representing combat ability, and this alternative system could present a way to focus your characters on non-combat things, unlike most other characters of the given class. I'm not thinking up anything that actually makes thematic sense, but perhaps others place different emphasis on that.
I care pretty strongly about theme, and can't think of a good way to make that work thematically.
In the end, I'd probably make changes that would play up the aspects of the fighter identified in the blurb.
That's, in many ways, what I'm trying to do.
Something like adding K(Local) and Perception, bumping the skill ranks to 4, and then adding an ability that gives them a bonus equal to their level on all skill checks related to armor, weapons, and war. And then expand Profession (Soldier) / Profession (Fighter) to allow identification of various things, and then clamp down on giving away metagame info in other ways.
That could work, but changing the basic way skills operate is sorta the kind of high impact change I don't like to make.
While reading this version above, I had the rough idea of a toughness pool. Probably same point values as the monk's ki pool, just based off of Constitution. My original idea was something along the lines of free action that can be taken out of turn to spend some points to reduce damage from an attack by 1d6 per point spent. Spend 2 points to add 1d6 to a saving throw. 4 to try and shake off a failed save 1 round after you failed it (even if you are mind-controlled, at the end of your turn, can only be done once per effect). Something like that. Haven't put much if any further thought into that though, so shrug. But it does play up the toughness aspect without being too complicated.
A fine idea, at least in principle, but one of my explicit design goals for this re-build is to avoid pools of points on my Fighter rebuild, simply because a lot of people who play Fighters do so precisely so as not to have to deal with that sort of thing.
And since I'm seeing most of the issues people are saying the fighter has as not a problem with the fighter, so much as the rest of the system (GMs ignoring the guidelines that define how difficult things should be, other classes being too good at combat and out of combat things, etc), I'd probably try to give the fighter something really unique that changes how full-attack actions work. Wouldn't be pounce.
Mobile Warrior is my attempt to do something that helps with precisely this without going overboard.
I don't think they need more bonuses to hit or to deal more damage. Probably an ability that makes them more "sticky". If you want to get away from the fighter who is facing you, you're going to have to either roll really well, or he's going to have to decide to leave you alone. Or maybe an ability that makes them count as larger than their real size (increases as you level), so that combat maneuvers don't become impossihard after 13th level. Essentially, this ability would be something to play up the control of the battlefield aspect of the fighter. They can get this already, especially with the various critical hit abilities, but those are fairly late in the game.
I agree that they don't need more to-hit or damage bonuses, and this is a very interesting idea, though I feel like Mobile Warrior really helps the 'people getting away from the Fighter' problem all things considered.
Probably also allow them to retrain the past 3 or more likely, starting at 1 and increasing to 3, bonus combat feats they selected, by spending an hour practicing the new ones. Once per day. This would reflect how they've studied combat more so than others. It'd be a bit like the brawler's ability, but with reduced flexibility.
That's an interesting idea as well, but not quite the direction I'm going in for this build, and is tricky to make actively useful.
If I was wanting to change the fighter, those abilities are probably where I'd start my quest at, and refine them from there.
Not a bad redesign at all, but it disagrees with my own design sensibilities a little. I'll definitely think further about something to make them 'sticky' and capable of counting as larger for combat maneuvers, that's an interesting idea...
Well, who should Dominate Person work against then? I believe one could make an argument for any class to receive the Good progression for any given save type.
Ignoring the fact that having a 50% chance to fail and rolling low is basically the definition of unlucky, then one should fix the spell.
Actually, no, that isn't the definition of unlucky, but it sounded cool in my head.
But really, the whole enchantment school is kind of dumb. It's all "Hey, we have HUGE effects that are tied to a single die roll and are all or nothing", so either the player playing an enchanter is frustrated at how often he fails to stick the spell on his foes (like my sorcerer), or the GM is frustrated at how often the I Win button comes out. And that's not even getting into the whole "Hey guys, I am completely robbing your agency of free will and forcing you to do things for me, but this definitely isn't evil" thing.
God, that whole school needs to be redone.
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Well, who should Dominate Person work against then? I believe one could make an argument for any class to receive the Good progression for any given save type.
In terms of PCs? Anyone who doesn't invest in resisting it. Especially when done by boss monsters or those with high Save DCs.
For example, at level 7, I'd expect a Fighter using these rules using my build to have a +7 to a +9 (since grabbing Iron Will is way less of a priority).
A CR 7 has a default Save DC of 17, and a 55%-65% chance of saving, but that's maybe higher than an equal CR creature's odds should be of taking out an entire PC of the same level.
A CR 10 boss monster, on the other hand, has a Save DC of 19 and the Fighter's odds of success are 45%-55% and about the average you cited.
A succubus, which is a CR 7 bear in mind, has a Save DC of 23, and the Fighter only has a 25%-35% chance to Save and may well be screwed. And creatures like this (dedicated Save or Lose creatures) aren't uncommon, heck even at CR 7 there's the aboleth as well as the succubus.
That sounds about right for characters who don't invest in defending against a Save or Lose effect.
Sorry, I won't be able to respond to each thing in that post. I will respond to the final question though. But first, a slight tangent.
** spoiler omitted **...
Have you checked out my fighter thread Cheapy?
I have added plenty of out of combat utility that I feel is in theme.
Couple of points: Spending 'points' to give bonuses to saves and hp and stuff sounds like "Gee, we should have included some combat appropriate non-combat general feats in our stamina pool remake."
Like, stamina mods for toughness and the +2 Save feats. And Fleet and Die hard and Endurance and...nm.
It's the main reason why stamina pool stuff is so underwhelming to me.
I can't think of a single fighter out there who wouldn't giddily trade in a combat feat for something like, oh, Superstitious. Or witch Hunter. or Pounce. Or Spell Sunder. Yeah, I could DEFINITELY see that happening. Let's trade, please!...which is why I was so goggle-eyed that '+2 to all saves vs magic' got a headshake. WTF?
But hey, a barb can trade in a (general) feat for these things. But we all know Fighters Can't Have Nice Things.
A swashbuckler eventually getting Cha to all saves and init is probably a bit much, don't you think?
I'd probably let him get 2/3, and init, but not all of them. The main reason being Charisma is uncapped, and so the bonus gets stupidly high if you put effort into it. Which is why Cha to saves is so much better then +2 to saves.
The problem with taking Profession (soldier) as an adventurer is a games rule problem, not a fighter problem. Like there's no reason for ANY adventurer to get good at Craft or Profession skills, yet they magically can do so.
It's like there's magic involved around learning, too. Strange.
==Aelryinth
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A swashbuckler eventually getting Cha to all saves and init is probably a bit much, don't you think?
I'd probably let him get 2/3, and init, but not all of them. The main reason being Charisma is uncapped, and so the bonus gets stupidly high if you put effort into it. Which is why Cha to saves is so much better then +2 to saves.
Oh, I'm aware of how good it is. But Paladins have a better Save Layout to start with (Swashbucklers have Good Reflex and that's it), and can get everything but the Initiative...and can get even that with a Feat.
So...Paladins can have all of that by level 2 for the cost of a single Feat. Letting Swashbucklers have it by level 14 doesn't seem unreasonable.
So, the fighter's +2 bonus against magic is going to get to scale then, too, right?
==Aelryinth
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So, the fighter's +2 bonus against magic is going to get to scale then, too, right?
I've scrapped the bonus vs. spells entirely for the moment (see the most recent revision above...I gave a scaling Initiative bonus instead).
And really, barring really unreasonable Charisma scores (few can actually manage any better than a 22 in Charisma on a character who it's not be a primary stat for, and Saves aside Swashbuckler's primary stat is their attack stat), the Swashbuckler only actually winds up better than the Fighter on Reflex Saves (and maybe a little on Initiative, though the Fighter does get +5 on that), while the Fighter winds up better on most Will Saves due to Indomitable Will.
So...that works for me. It maybe gives the Swashbuckler a bit of an edge on Saves, but Swashbuckler's are sorta forced to fight with a one-handed weapon (and shield, if they like) without TWF...they get a lot of bonuses to make that viable, but that's all they do: Make it viable, not make it actually a superior option to a Fighter using TWF or two-handing a falchion, leaving Fighters ahead offensively.
Meh. I still have problems with Fighters being so far behind barbarians on saves, especially vs magic.
You brought them up equal with a ranger...at least, a Ranger not using anti-FE save feats.
Unless you remove Superstition, you should put that back in...or offer it as a Fighter bonus feat option.
You're right in that the one good save of the Swash means he's not going to get massively overpowered with Cha to all saves. Now, you just have to give the Rogue something to equal it, in all fairness. No justification for the Swash being king of the Reflex save over the Rogue now, is there?
==Aelryinth
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Meh. I still have problems with Fighters being so far behind barbarians on saves, especially vs magic.
You brought them up equal with a ranger...at least, a Ranger not using anti-FE save feats.
What anti-FE Save Feats? I'm not recalling any of them off the top of my head.
And yeah, the Fighter's now equal to Rangers, Slayers, Brawlers, and so on. Maybe a bit better, since they have Resilience, Courageous, and Indomitable Will, plus a Good Will Save is better in many ways than a Good Reflex Save.
Unless you remove Superstition, you should put that back in...or offer it as a Fighter bonus feat option.
Eh. Paladin and Barbarian being the best at Saves works for me, with everyone else reasonably good but not quite in their league.
You're right in that the one good save of the Swash means he's not going to get massively overpowered with Cha to all saves. Now, you just have to give the Rogue something to equal it, in all fairness. No justification for the Swash being king of the Reflex save over the Rogue now, is there?
Rogues have other advantages, and I do give them some more. Twist Away plus a Ring of Ferocious Action is also a great help to them (and not most others...I wouldn't let Swashbucklers qualify for it) in terms of Saves.
Besides which, I'm rather skeptical that most Swashbucklers will actually ever pick up the Reflex Save enhancer. Their Reflex Saves are already really high, and the other options seem more appealing.
Meh. I still have problems with Fighters being so far behind barbarians on saves, especially vs magic.
You brought them up equal with a ranger...at least, a Ranger not using anti-FE save feats.What anti-FE Save Feats? I'm not recalling any of them off the top of my head.
And yeah, the Fighter's now equal to Rangers, Slayers, Brawlers, and so on. Maybe a bit better, since they have Resilience, Courageous, and Indomitable Will, plus a Good Will Save is better in many ways than a Good Reflex Save.
Unless you remove Superstition, you should put that back in...or offer it as a Fighter bonus feat option.Eh. Paladin and Barbarian being the best at Saves works for me, with everyone else reasonably good but not quite in their league.
You're right in that the one good save of the Swash means he's not going to get massively overpowered with Cha to all saves. Now, you just have to give the Rogue something to equal it, in all fairness. No justification for the Swash being king of the Reflex save over the Rogue now, is there?Rogues have other advantages, and I do give them some more. Twist Away plus a Ring of Ferocious Action is also a great help to them (and not most others...I wouldn't let Swashbucklers qualify for it) in terms of Saves.
Besides which, I'm rather skeptical that most Swashbucklers will actually ever pick up the Reflex Save enhancer. Their Reflex Saves are already really high, and the other options seem more appealing.
Yeah the only decent FE freest I can think of is Favored Defense, when coupled with a maxed FE it turns Instant Enemy into a super buff.
IF i could i feel like posting my own Fighter fix, mine was less an attempt to make them more viable versus magic and more an attempt to remove the required full attack dependency, or at least free up movement.
For the more organized version
Active Fighter
This archetype replaces bonus feats gained at first and every fourth level (1st, 4rth, 8th, 12th, etc). It never gains bonus feats at those levels.
Active Fighters gains the following class abilities.
The Active Fighters gains 4+int mod skill points per level. Perception is always considered a class skill.
Vigor (Ex):
Whatever the reason, all Active Fighters have Vigor. Vigor is a fluctuating measure of a Fighter’s ability to perform amazing actions in combat. At the start of each day, an Active Fighter gains a number of Vigor points equal to her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). Her Vigor goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her Constitution modifier (minimum 1), though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A Fighter spends Vigor to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains Vigor in the following ways.
Any feat, magic item or ability that would return or effect panache or grit can return Vigor instead, and this class ability counts as being panache or grit for prerequisites. You may also count your levels as swashbuckler or gunslinger levels for the prerequisites of feats that effect panache or grit(such as signature deed).
Critical Hit with a Melee Weapon: Each time the Fighter confirms a critical hit with a melee weapon with a natural roll of 20, she regains 1 Vigor point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the Fighter's character level doesn't restore Vigor.
Killing Blow with a Melee Weapon: When the Fighter reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee weapon attack while in combat, she regains 1 Vigor point. Destroying an unattended object, reducing a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the Fighter's character level to 0 or fewer hit points doesn't restore any Vigor.
Fighters spend Vigor points to accomplish deeds. Most deeds grant the Fighter a momentary bonus or effect, but some provide longer-lasting effects. Some deeds remain in effect while the Fighter has at least 1 panache point, but do not require expending panache to be maintained. A Fighter can only perform deeds of her level or lower. Unless otherwise noted, a deed can be performed multiple successive times, as long as the swashbuckler has or spends the required number of panache points to perform the deed.
Press the Advantage (Ex): At 1st level, a Fighter can spend 1 Vigor point when she makes an Combat Maneuver check to roll 1d6 and add the result to the check. She can do this after she makes the check but before the result is revealed. At 7th Level the Fighter may spend an additional vigor point to count the target of the combat maneuver as the Fighter’s size if the Fighter is smaller(has no effect on smaller targets).
Battlefield Awareness (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent attempts to charge or move up to either the fighter or a close ally, the Fighter can as an immediate action spend 1 Vigor point to move 5 feet; This movement can be used to, but is not limited to, (if you are the target) put an object in between you and the enemy either stopping the charge or putting you out of reach. If an ally is the target, you can place yourself in the way and the enemy's charge and the charge targets you instead, if you move in the way of an enemy's movement, then he stops one square short of moving through your space. At 5th level and 10th level the distance that you can move increases by 5 feet. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, however you threaten the area from your new location as normal, as well. At 10th level you no longer need for an enemy to attempt to charge or move up to either the fighter or a close ally, and can instead perform this anytime you can perform an immediate action.
Parry (Ex): At 1st level, when an opponent makes a melee attack against the Fighter, she can spend 1 Vigor point and expend a use of an attack of opportunity to attempt to parry that attack. The fighter makes an attack roll as if she were making an attack of opportunity; for each size category the attacking creature is larger than the fighter, the fighter takes a –2 penalty on this roll. If her result is greater than the attacking creature's result, the creature's attack automatically misses. The fighter must declare the use of this ability after the creature's attack is announced, but before its attack roll is made.
At 7th level this can be done to intercept attacks aimed at adjacent allies (even if the enemy attacking is not within reach) and allows you to spend an additional vigor point if you succeed on your parry to perform a combat maneuver as a free action, that you can use in place of a melee attack(such as sunder, or dirty trick if you have the quick dirty trick feat).
At 11th level you can Parry ranged attacks made against you or adjacent allies.
Improved Bravery (Ex): At 3rd level, when the Fighter has at least one Vigor point, Bravery's bonus applies to all Will saves, not just fear affecting.
Fighter's Instinct (Ex): At 3rd level, when the fighter has at least one Vigor point, the Fighter gains a +2 bonus on initiative checks, and never loses their dexterity bonus against invisible enemies.
Second Skin (Ex): At 7th level, as a swift action that expends a vigor point, a Fighter can ignore his armor check penalty for a number of rounds equal to his constitution modifier (min 1).
Superior Maneuver (Ex): At 7th level, when the Fighter attempts a combat maneuver, as a swift action she can spend a Vigor point to act as if she had the improved and greater feats for that combat maneuver, for that check alone. At 11th level you also gain the quick feat version if the combat maneuver has one.
Battlefield Mobility (Ex): At 7th level, when a fighter has at least 1 Vigor point she can move up to 10 feet as part of a full attack action, the movement need not all be spent at the same time, but must be taken in 5 feet increments. This movement provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. By spending 1 Vigor point she can increase this movement up to her current movement speed.
Decisive Calm (Ex): At 11th Level, when a Fighter has at least 1 Vigor point, Bravery's Bonus also Applies to Reflex Saves.
Bleeding Wound (Ex): At 11th level, when the Fighter hits a living creature with a melee weapon attack, as a free action she can spend 1 Vigor point to have that attack deal additional bleed damage. The amount of bleed damage dealt is equal to the Fighter's Strength modifier (minimum 1). Alternatively, the Fighter can spend 2 Vigor points to deal 1 point of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution bleed damage instead (Fighter's choice). Creatures that are immune to sneak attacks are also immune to these types of bleed damage.
Stalwart Rampart (Ex): At 11th level, when the Fighter has at least 1 Vigor point, she is immune to all Sunder, Trip and Overrun attempts. All attempts automatically fail against the Fighter.
Devastating (Ex): At 15th level, when the fighter has at least one Vigor point, the damage of his attacks increases by 1 for every 4 BAB the fighter possess. This bonus stacks with power attack.
Perfect Thrust (Ex): At 15th level, while the Fighter has at least 1 Vigor point, she can as a full-round action make a perfect thrust, pooling all of her attack potential into a single melee attack made with a melee weapon. When she does, she makes the attack against the target's touch AC, and ignores all damage reduction.
Second Wind (Ex): At 15th level, even while otherwise unable to take physical or mental actions, a fighter may as an immediate action remove every negative condition placed on him(such as stunned, fatigued, sickened, dazed, etc), regaining a Vigor point per condition removed. This ability can be used one time per day, and you lose all your Vigor points at the end of combat. This does not stop him from regaining conditions from on going effects.
Cheat Death (Ex): At 19th level, whenever the fighter is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer, she can spend all of her remaining Vigor to instead be reduced to 1 hit point. She must have at least 1 Vigor point to spend. Effects that kill the fighter outright without dealing hit point damage are not affected by this ability.
Deadly Strike(Ex): At 19th level, when the fighter confirms a critical hit with a melee weapon, in addition to the normal damage, she can spend 1 Vigor point to inflict a deadly strike. The target must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw or die. The DC of this save is 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Constitution modifier. This is a death attack. Performing this deed does not grant the fighter a Vigor point.
Stunning Strike(Ex): At 19th level, when a fighter hits a creature with a melee weapon, she can spend 1 Vigor points to stun the creature for 1 round. The creature must succeed at a Fortitude saving throw (DC = 10 + 1/2 the fighter's level + the fighter's Constitution modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. Creatures that are immune to critical hits are also immune to this effect.
NO offense, bandw, but I am sooooo turned off by pools. It's like the designers think that just adding a pool can solve all a classes problems. Then they call them different things, then they say they can mix...bah.
==Aelryinth