OK, so I am getting a campaign book together for my Pathfinder world and wanted to use an initiative system I used to use in D&D 3.0/3.5 but my external drive crashed some time ago, taking many of my digital notes with it. I found pieces of it, but wanted to try and find it again or modify it a bit on my own so it works in my world. Yes, this system appears clunky, but I have found it work out just fine for the most part but even I am open to suggestions.
This works for melee and ranged right now but is missing the magic end of things and more than likely could use some work (especially with the release of Unchanined).
Here is the part I found after a great deal of searching today:
FreeGamers' Initiative (For use with 3.x D&D):
Base Initiative (BI) = Dexterity + Int Mod + Size Mod + Wpn Mod + Armor Mod
Combat Initiative = Base Initiative + d10
Size:
Fine: +8
Diminutive: +6
Tiny: +4
Small: +2
Medium: -
Large: -2
Huge: -4
Gargantuan: -6
Colossal: -8
Weapon:
Unarmed / Natural: +3
Light Weapon, Dart, Shuriken: +2
1 Handed, Bows, Light X-Bow: -
2H Melee, Over-Sized 1H, Hvy X-Bow, Javelin, Net: -2
Over-Sized 2H, Siege Equipment: -5
Armor Modifier: 1/2 the Armor Check Penlaty of Armor & Shield (Round up)
Examples:
A Human Paladin wearing Full Plate & Heavy Shield w/ Longsword. He's got a 12 Int and 14 Dex. His BI would be 14 (Dex) +1 (Int) +0 (Size), +0 (Weapon) -4 (Half Total Armor Check Penalty) = 11 BI.
His Combat Inititative would be 11 +d10, or a range of 12 - 21.
Now take an Elven Monk fighting bare-handed w/o armor. He's got a 16 Dex and 10 Int. His BI is 16 + 0 + 0 + 3 + 0 = 19.
His Combat Initiative would be 19 +d10, or a range of 20 - 29.
There is literally a 1% chance the Paladin would go before the Monk, and a 2% chance they would act simultaneously - barring initiative enhancements, alternative armors, ability enhancements, etc... In a normal d20 Init system like D&D has the Paladin would actually act first 40% of the time - which is basically just flat-out random and doesn't properly reflect one's weapons and armor being used as a means of being slower to act.
Any help on this will be greatly appreciated.
I'm curious to hear how you handled spellcasters in this system. So far, it looks like the rules set is incomplete regarding spellcasters, but if it is not, then I feel a lot of Save-or-Suck casters will have quite an initiative advantage being unarmed, unarmored, and often a smaller size-category than normal. Also Intelligence to Initiative.
I am missing part of it as the original text file I had was somewhere around 8-10 pages long and had something for spellcasters as well. I found this after over an hour of scrounging the internet and came up empty on the rest.
I've seen some systems that do something like subtracting the spell level, but then there are quickened spells and other considerations like extraordinary and spell-like abilities as well.
Talked a friend and fellow RPG enthusiast about this and he suggested using a similar system for spellcasters based on casting time (as if it were the weapon for melee focused characters in above rules)and then treating any modification to that time (expect maybe Quickened) as if it were similar to the armor penalty (trade-off for the effects).
Still not sure how to work spell level into it but I am open to suggestions.
Using Dex score instead of Dex mod is redundant. They do the same thing, but one creates bigger numbers. Using Dex score has caused you to compensate by changing the system-defining resolution die from a d20 to a d10.
As far as Int goes, you could justify Wis just as easily. I would scrap this part, or maybe include it at the cost of a feat.
The size mod makes some sense. I'm fine with it, although I would bring it down to match CMB mods.
The weapon mod is what I'm really not on baord with. Count this as a free bonus to all dedicated spellcasters, all natural attacking monsters, and to the rare unarmed character. Additionally, whats to stop the two-handed weapon guy from getting the bonus and then drawing his weapon while he moves up to attack?
The armor mod is fine. I guess it makes sense, but I would couple it with some kind of perk for the heavily armored.
That makes sense. Heck I suppose 2 or 3 dice of any kind would make even a small bonus significant.
I actually really like this system. You'll definitely see certain character very consistently going first. But that seems to be the intent of this system and I think that's a good thing.
It would change combat pretty significantly. But one idea is taking the spells and actually making them go off +X Initiative later.
So for instance Quicken is +0; Standard is +3 and Full-Round is +5. (Off the top of my head. So grain of salt and all that). Then you'd do your action say "Oh, I move over here and cast this spell" then the effects of the spell happen a bit later on.
And issue I can see with this could be certain situations involving the normal move action for spellcasters. Before a wizard could cast a fireball then step into the area they cast into after the effects. That wouldn't be as easy anymore. Also it makes "readying" against spell effects simpler since you could delay your action until after the spellcaster then try to whack them to make them lose the spell.
But that's one option you could try
I actually really like this system. You'll definitely see certain character very consistently going first. But that seems to be the intent of this system and I think that's a good thing.
It would change combat pretty significantly. But one idea is taking the spells and actually making them go off +X Initiative later.
So for instance Quicken is +0; Standard is +3 and Full-Round is +5. (Off the top of my head. So grain of salt and all that). Then you'd do your action say "Oh, I move over here and cast this spell" then the effects of the spell happen a bit later on.
And issue I can see with this could be certain situations involving the normal move action for spellcasters. Before a wizard could cast a fireball then step into the area they cast into after the effects. That wouldn't be as easy anymore. Also it makes "readying" against spell effects simpler since you could delay your action until after the spellcaster then try to whack them to make them lose the spell.
But that's one option you could try
Indeed, I want this system to show the uencumbered as being faster and more likely to go first, but this applies to monsters as well when it comes to natural attacks. I have to admit I like the idea you have for spellcasters there and might have to run the numbers to see how it works out.
As for your ideas Ciaran Barnes to each their own as I want to add a sense of realism to the game with a more political and dialogue driven game (combat is not gone, just not always the only solution). The CMB idea I like and might have to use now that you brought it up and wisdom over intelligence is actually not a bad idea as I already toyed with than change myself.
On a side note, I forgot to mention I am pulling an old idea from White Wolf Games with this initiative system and do a reverse declaration initiative. This means that after initiative is rolled, the creature/player/npc with the lowest result declares their intention for the round all the way to the highest place. Then, initiative is run normally from highest to lowest. This means that the person at the top as command over the battlefield and can shape the battle a bit with their sense of all that is going on.
Other considerations I am looking into (but am open to suggestions though) is is a person changes their weapon in the middle of the round. For those that don't know the old White Wolf system, if you changed your declared actions, it cost you a point of Willpower (1-10) to change you action or you were stuck with it.
I don't really ascribe to the belief that wielding a two-handed weapon somehow makes you less responsive on the battlefield, but if it works for your group then more power to you.
The rule itself seems interesting, if a bit arbitrary. I'd caution against using wisdom only because that seems like adding yet another very useful feature to that stat, to the point that I would have trouble justifying choosing to boost any other mental stat. Not exactly game breaking, but it pushes int and cha further down the dump track for most characters.
Some folks have been asking about spellcasting. You could give a penalty to initiative based on spellcasting. Give the mage a penalty to their initiative result on the following round equal to half the level of the spell they cast (or simply equal to the spell level, if you think that's not harsh enough). For example, a mage who starts the combat with an initiative result of 14 casts fireball, so acts at initiative count 11 instead the next round. It's up to you whether to reset them on the following round, or maintain their lower initiative for the rest of combat.
In my games, we roll initiative every round (I have a simple program that does it), which shakes up combat a lot and makes things more interesting. I could see your system really meshing well with that.
I don't really ascribe to the belief that wielding a two-handed weapon somehow makes you less responsive on the battlefield, but if it works for your group then more power to you.
The rule itself seems interesting, if a bit arbitrary. I'd caution against using wisdom only because that seems like adding yet another very useful feature to that stat, to the point that I would have trouble justifying choosing to boost any other mental stat. Not exactly game breaking, but it pushes int and cha further down the dump track for most characters.
Some folks have been asking about spellcasting. You could give a penalty to initiative based on spellcasting. Give the mage a penalty to their initiative result on the following round equal to half the level of the spell they cast (or simply equal to the spell level, if you think that's not harsh enough). For example, a mage who starts the combat with an initiative result of 14 casts fireball, so acts at initiative count 11 instead the next round. It's up to you whether to reset them on the following round, or maintain their lower initiative for the rest of combat.
In my games, we roll initiative every round (I have a simple program that does it), which shakes up combat a lot and makes things more interesting. I could see your system really meshing well with that.
I'm still up in the air about Wisdom, but might even consider mixing Dexterity, Wisdom and Intelligence in some equation - I have close to 50 gaming system books here so I might see what I can come up with that encompasses all three stats or more (go ahead and call me crazy; I've been called worse).
I do intend to roll initative each round, so a program might be in order for that so I can keep track of it all easier. Maybe a spreadsheet in Open Office will work as I can whip one of those up with ease.
I still am not sure what to do about those who might switch weapons mid turn or attack a with multiple weapons (worst of the two maybe might be the easiest route to go towards).
I did have a thought though just now though regarding your comment about two handed weapons as being unfairly nixed to slow initiative. Maybe incorporating base attack bonus into it might help. After all, it would be feasibly to believe that say a 16th level fighter might have a slightly better feel for combat than a 16th level rogue or even bard for that matter as combat is their primary job.
I'll do some experiments this weekend and see what I can come up with.
As a post note, your idea about spell casters: what if a caster keeps casting spells each round? eventually, their initiative might reach 0 or lower, unless those points came back with time.
Just snowballing the idea around to stimulate discussion and discourse on the matter so might come up with something that multiple people can see as fair.
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I'm still up in the air about Wisdom, but might even consider mixing Dexterity, Wisdom and Intelligence in some equation - I have close to 50 gaming system books here so I might see what I can come up with that encompasses all three stats or more (go ahead and call me crazy; I've been called worse).
I do intend to roll initiative each round, so a program might be in order for that so I can keep track of it all easier. Maybe a spreadsheet in Open Office will work as I can whip one of those up with ease.
I still am not sure what to do about those who might switch weapons mid turn or attack a with multiple weapons (worst of the two maybe might be the easiest route to go...
I personally like to keep things simple. The game is complex enough. I would change initiative to BAB+Wisdom Modifier. This gives Martial class a bit of an edge over casters and rogues. Also, make people think twice before before dumping Wisdom.
Even though the idea makes sense, "the bigger, the heavier, the slower", the damage of the heavier/slower creatures is just not that greater to compensate a large penalty on initiative.
Imagine a group of 10 armored Ogres vs. 10 rogues of the same power level. The 10 rogues would probably act first and take down maybe half of the ogres before they had a chance to act.
Heavier/Slower could have some impact on initiave, but not determine it.
Think of something like "heavy & slow = -2 or -4 init", "light & fast = +2 or +4 init" (remember that lighter character normaly already have higher Dex already calculated into Initiavite).
I think the modifies you are suggesting too big of an impact, specially with just a 1d10. Consider using all those modifiers but rolling 2d20.
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I wouldn't use this system personally (base is too - "thick") but one thing I would change just off the cuff is using the INT modifier in the formula.
So I'm with IHiYC on this one - WIS has been the traditional modifier for perception and situational awareness, not intelligence.
Initiative should be tied to situational awareness, not how smart you are. So that would mean (if you were to add it in) using a WIS mod instead of INT.
It would make more sense when you stat out cunning (vs. intelligent) ambush monsters or animals that have good perception/wis.
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Also - I think for me (at least) I would want most creatures to have a similar base, with the big variable being the weapon or spell they are using. Unarmed (+3) to siege weapon (-5) is only an 9 point spread - if I am going to use action/weapon speed/spell speed kind of system I would want to reward players who may use weaker actions (re: lower damage) for their speed - throwing a knife for speed vs swinging a sword. Under the base numbers you have listed a slow character gets minimal benefit for switching up actions.
Initiative formula = break it down into precedences
How important is the base - under your system it's 50-75% (too much)
Other variables (mods) - under your system it's around 10-15%
Actual actions in combat - under your system it's around 5% or negligible.
The last part defeating the whole point of tactical combat (what weapon to use and when).
So your slow paladin is cleaving away at the bad guys, across the room he sees the party wizard getting beat down by an enemy monk - he switches from his longsword to throw a dagger (to prevent his buddy from dying) and he gets a whopping +2 difference? It doesn't work for me.
I would suggest that your weapon modifiers have the widest and wildest range (same with spells) of numbers with a d20. Magic Missile/Thrown dagger should be a +9 and work your way down. I would also suggest dumping DEX as a base. That base is way too thick and Dex heavy. Would make more sense to use size as a base and DEX as just a modifier.
Good luck with it though, I like reading alternatives to the existing bad and boring system currently in place.