Earth Glide + Grapple = ???

[Rogar Stonebow]

So can one with earth glide ready an action to glide through a thrown rock?

[Doomed Hero]

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

So can one with earth glide ready an action to glide through a thrown rock?

Not by RAW, but that's such a cool image that I'd use it in my game.

[Neo2151]

What in the RAW prevents it? (Just curious.)

[wraithstrike]

Neo2151 wrote:

What in the RAW prevents it? (Just curious.)

It has already been stated. How about you explain how it is allowed or at least choose some post and tell us by the book how we are wrong.

Even if nobody had found any rules to use "the book does not say I can't" does not mean you can.

I listed an example of that when I mentioned changing direction midjump and moving at a 45 degree angle. <--The rules don't say I can't, but I know better to try it in anyone's game.

[Byakko]

Exceptional abilities may be classified as non-magical in the game world, but most of them still create effects which are far beyond the realms of what is physically possible in the real world. This can be seen with many Barbarian powers as well as many creature abilities (such as most non-avians with wings). However, most of these abilities have some basis and reference in reality.

The concept that two physical solid objects cannot exist in the same place at the same time, while largely true, is sometimes proven false, which was the purpose of my examples. Solid matter is mostly made up of empty space, thus facilitating this sort of thing in unusual situations where molecular forces can be overcome or ignored. Thus, I find it plausible that a creature made out of unusual material might be able to accomplish this sort of thing in a "non-magical" way.

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I see 3 main explanations for how Earth Glide works:

1) The creature's body shares the same space as the rock, without disturbing it. If the creature teleported away, there would be no apparent change to the rock, as it was never affected in the first place.

2) The creature can easily push itself through the rock, somehow moving the material out of the way (perhaps to form a superdense concentrated earthen shell around itself as it moves?). This is a semi-"magical" explanation as it is somehow causing the manipulation of normal rock properties. If the creature teleported away, a hole exactly the shape and size of the creature would remain, perhaps immediately springing back into place depending on your explanation of how this works mechanically.

3) The creature is actually burrowing, digging its way through the rock. Essentially, this is making Earth Glide the same as normal burrowing, except somehow more stealthy. As a hole isn't left behind, presumably the creature is moving the material in front of it to the rear of it in order to progress forward. If the creature teleported away, it would leave a hole, which may eventually collapse if the material is loose. This sort of burrowing seems to strongly go against the description of Earth Glide, however.

To me, the first makes the most sense based on the description of the ability. The only thing that really lends credence to the 2nd and 3rd options is the use of the word burrow. However, I don't think they meant to use that word in the physical sense, otherwise they'd just have made it a burrow speed with a stealth bonus. Note also, that the word burrow can sometimes be used in other ways, such as particles which can burrow into material by completely ignoring what should be a physical barrier. This is actually one of the limitations of shrinking circuitry.

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Concerning air, water, and earth:

A creature without flying can still pass through air, thus can be picked up by a flying creature.
A creature without the ability to swim can still pass through water, thus can be moved in water by a swimming creature.
A creature without earth glide can still pass through rock... oh wait, they can't. Parallel broken.

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Now obviously, there is some vagueness and multiple readings of the ability. An important question to ask, then, is what is reasonable and fair?

Being grappled and pulled through air can be somewhat dangerous. However, it takes time for the creature to reach a high elevation and there are many easy ways to counter falling damage. Even if you don't have one, falling damage is often not fatal for high level characters. Further, it will often leave the body in an accessible location.

Being grappled and pulled into water can be dangerous. However, again, there are quite a few options available to adventurers to combat drowning, and such preparation needs can often be foreseen and made in advance. Further, the player often has quite a few rounds to escape due to lenient rules for holding one's breath, and it's typically easy for allies to follow and come to the rescue.

Being grappled and pulled into earth... is pretty much just fatal. While it may be possible to use a verbal-only spell to escape, there are few other options when your entire body is encased in stone. You'll eventually just run out of breath and die, with little chance for most parties to even find where you were taken.

Do you really think that Earth Glide was meant to allow a creature to kill a foe by succeeding on a single grapple to move check? I certainly don't. As there is more than one way to read this ability, why would you intentionally choose one which allows such undoubtedly unintended uses? I would not allow a creature to do something like this unless it were specifically called out in their ability or tactics.

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Wow, that got quite long. I hope some people enjoyed the read, at least. lol

[Neo2151]

wraithstrike wrote:

Neo2151 wrote:

What in the RAW prevents it? (Just curious.)

It has already been stated. How about you explain how it is allowed or at least choose some post and tell us by the book how we are wrong.

I'm actually in agreement with you that the intention behind earth glide was very likely not to allow those creatures to ignore earthen projectiles.

However, quoting a bit of flavor text from the ability is hardly stating hard RAW.

Someone said RAW says no. I don't see that to be the case. If it is the case, I was asking where that RAW existed (and what, specifically, it said.) Otherwise, it's entirely GM fiat.

wraithstrike wrote:

Even if nobody had found any rules to use "the book does not say I can't" does not mean you can.

This is true, but it doesn't mean you can't either. If it doesn't exist as a rule, it's up to either a FAQ or your GM to answer individually.

[wraithstrike]

Neo2151 wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Neo2151 wrote:

What in the RAW prevents it? (Just curious.)

It has already been stated. How about you explain how it is allowed or at least choose some post and tell us by the book how we are wrong.

I'm actually in agreement with you that the intention behind earth glide was very likely not to allow those creatures to ignore earthen projectiles.

However, quoting a bit of flavor text from the ability is hardly stating hard RAW.

Someone said RAW says no. I don't see that to be the case. If it is the case, I was asking where that RAW existed (and what, specifically, it said.) Otherwise, it's entirely GM fiat.

wraithstrike wrote:

Even if nobody had found any rules to use "the book does not say I can't" does not mean you can.

This is true, but it doesn't mean you can't either. If it doesn't exist as a rule, it's up to either a FAQ or your GM to answer individually.

Not everything you are not allowed to do or at least not intended to be allowed will be spelled out in the book. I am sure you know this, and I am sure you know that certain things even while not stated are beyond the realm of intent. My jumping idea is an example of that so instead of saying "well the book doesn't say....." when you know it is not the intent, and does not help the discussion why not just go with what you know the intent is.

A lot of things in the book are not actually stated, and for the purpose of theoretical discussions it can be an interesting thought excercise, but if you(general statement) are really trying to prove a point, and you(general statement) act as if you don't know the intent it really just annoys people.

My rules quote about earth glide was in response to ravingdork's last post. He made a case about how earth glide did not say the earth was not moved out of the way, and then I responded.

The short version is the grappled victim has no way to move through that rock. That is why burrow which should leave a hole is the better option. The elemental does actually have burrow so there is no reason that could not be used unless a GM said burrow leaves no space for the creature to occupy either. I would understand not allowing it for balance reasons, but I look at it more as one of those things the devs did not consider when writing the ability.

[Matthew Downie]

Doomed Hero wrote:

Regardless of whether it works with Earth Glide it would work with anything that has an actual Burrow speed.

I disagree. There's no space for the grappled creature to occupy.

The rules are not very clear about how Burrow works but I believe the rule was this in 3.5:

Burrow (Ex)
A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

(And if the burrowing creature did leave space in its wake, the grappled creature would have a path back to the surface anyway.)

I also disapprove of the concept for game balance reasons. Would you want players to solve all their problems by summoning earth elementals and sending them off ahead to use their tremorsense to find foes and then bury them?

[wraithstrike]

Matthew Downie wrote:

Doomed Hero wrote:

Regardless of whether it works with Earth Glide it would work with anything that has an actual Burrow speed.

I disagree. There's no space for the grappled creature to occupy.

The rules are not very clear about how Burrow works but I believe the rule was this in 3.5:

Burrow (Ex)
A creature with a burrow speed can tunnel through dirt, but not through rock unless the descriptive text says otherwise. Creatures cannot charge or run while burrowing. Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing); see the individual creature descriptions for details.

(And if the burrowing creature did leave space in its wake, the grappled creature would have a path back to the surface anyway.)

I also disapprove of the concept for game balance reasons. Would you want players to solve all their problems by summoning earth elementals and sending them off ahead to use their tremorsense to find foes and then bury them?

I was looking for this earlier. I guess I could not find it because Paizo never brought it over. Well, if that is how burrow works in Pathfinder then that kills the burrow idea also.

Of course it is not specified so I can't use this as a rule, and I dont know why they left it out, but how burrow works should be explained.

Time for another FAQ I guess.

edit: I also agree with you because that also means GM's could do it to players.

[Ravingdork]

Matthew Downie wrote:

I also disapprove of the concept for game balance reasons. Would you want players to solve all their problems by summoning earth elementals and sending them off ahead to use their tremorsense to find foes and then bury them?

What's so bad about that? That's clever gaming at its finest! I already have players who frequently summon air elementals to whirlwind dozens of humanoid enemies into the air over and over again in one round. This really wouldn't be altogether different--especially when you consider that the monster you can summon are often weaker than the monsters you generally fight (making grappling and other specialized attacks less likely to succeed).

Also, I recall there being a module somewhere in which an earth elemental actually did bury someone, or attempted to bury someone, though I don't recall the source I'm afraid.

[Byakko]

Module writers have a certain amount of creative license when it comes to using creature abilities, especially when used in a cinematic manner.

There's a significant power difference between an air elemental tossing a monster into the air, and an earth elemental burying someone. (as I previously covered) Note that the air elemental has specific rules written into the ability to allow and explain this use, whereas the earth elemental has no such equivalent text.

[Ravingdork]

If module writers can do it, why can't GMs?

[wraithstrike]

GM's can do whatever they want but that does not make it legal.

You also never answered the questions posed when I explained why this idea is not legal.

[wraithstrike]

I also think some module writers just get the rules wrong at times.