Forgetting Your Child

[Ceres Cato]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

Oh, let me rephrase.

...instead of being arrogant pieces of s~!& and writing it off as "something selfish pieces of s+*& do".

This post is gonna get deleted, isn't it?

I totally understand AND like you. Keep it up.

[captain yesterday]

See there you go!

Now isn't that better:-D

Good stuff :-)

[GM Niles]

I don't particularly feel like a selfish person. I guess on the selfish/selfless spectrum I'm pretty average... but everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

[Ceres Cato]

captain yesterday wrote:

See there you go!

Now isn't that better:-D

Good stuff :-)

I'm confused.

[Kobold Catgirl]

I don't know about "better". "True", maybe? I think I could say worse. Your professed "view" (really more of a gut reaction, since, again, you explicitly have no interest in having any clue what you're talking about) is a very arrogant and s*##ty one.

I don't know that I'd seriously call you what I did, exactly (though it had a nice ring to it). I'm still not unconvinced that you are a troll. At best (or perhaps at worst) you have an attention-hungry and self-righteous attitude. But there is a difference between "guy who talks s%$@" and "guy who is s**+". I don't believe I know you well enough to see you as the latter, simple as it would be. Your words are bile, but you as a person are not yet opaque in your consistency.

That said, bilious words are what they are. You have clearly not yet outgrown the idea that a gut reaction is enough to sustain an opinion, and until you do, you really should go.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

I'm not a parent, but having read through the article I'll just say that if you think it couldn't happen to you, you need to read it and understand why it could.

There should be no legal punishment for these cases, their life is already a living hell.

[Kobold Catgirl]

Oh.

Oh.

I'm so sorry. I completely misunderstood what you were saying, but writing it in all-caps made it clear as crystal. Kinda like how shouting at a guy who doesn't speak your language will make him able to understand. Isn't it magical how the more abrasive and obnoxious we are, the more clear and productive discussions of this sort become?

Anyways, since you continue to have no interest in knowing what's going on, I'm going to treat your words with the same regard I would afford a man with rocks stuffed in his ears telling me a song sucks.

And by the way, for those who didn't see the Captain's message, he just said "Clearly you misunderstood me" and repeated his earlier messages in all-caps. This is the second time he's deleted a particularly abrasive message after leaving it up a couple minutes. I just ignored it the first time, but like I said: Patterns can form. Since he's done it twice, I assume he wants his message seen by me but doesn't want to have to deal with any consequences.*

*Ironic, innit?

[Krensky]

It's not that the parents who this happens too are bad parents, or easily distracted, or selfish, or anyting else you tell yourself to distance yourself from them so you can dehumanbise them as monsters.

It's that our brains, our wonderful, wonderfuls brains that are capable of so many wonderful and amazing things are also crude, ugly, downright rude kludges that make even the most extravagant Rube Goldberg machine look simple nd elegant in comparison. These hacked together neuralogies are then run by the bit we inheritied from a lizard most of the time.

Have you ever forgotten your phone? Your purse or wallet? Your keys? A bag of groceries? A text book? Your work ID? To go to the grocery store? To pick up dry cleaning? Anything? Ever?

If you answered yes, then you could forget your kid in the car. No matteer what you think. You could.

If you answered no, you're lying.

There is no crime in almost all of these cases because there was no intent. It's not even crinminal negligence because that requires that the defendent did something knowingly.

Seriously, read the article. The part you want starts with the sentance: "David Diamond is picking at his breakfast at a Washington hotel, trying to explain."

For the part on why you're so set that you couldn't do it and why the parents who do are vile monsters you want the section that begins:
"“This is a case of pure evil negligence of the worse kind . . . He deserves the death sentence.”"

[LazarX]

captain yesterday wrote:

If you're so busy you can't even remember your own child is in the car then you shouldn't have children, period.

Frankly if you treat a child like a handbag, or something else you casually forget in the car and something happens you should be held accountable, f&!# the selfish piece of s~*~.

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

It's always easy to judge from the armchair. I went to Mepacon this weekend at the end of a stressful work weak. During the weekend I ...

1. almost lost my iphone twice becasue I left it, one at the table I was judging and another at one of the vendors.

2. Was only able to use my laptop for one hour this weekend even though I fully made sure I packed it, I didn't do so for the power adapter.

3. Spent half an hour not seeing my tablet was indeed with me because I did not notice it's black form against the lining of my black bag.

4. left my digital camera in the hotel room when we checked out.

The point is... it's easy to insist that someone be absolutely perfect at the things we have responsibility for. The higher the responsibility, the more the pressure to be perfect in executing it. And we have built a high pressure toxic society that not only makes personal responsibility a greater priority, it makes it that much harder to live up to.

Unfortunately there isn't a guarantee that we can be perfect 24/7 no matter how great the responsibility, especially when we're alone.

I don't believe that society is served by setting an absolute non-varying standard of criminialising an honest mistake. That the answer for incidents like this has to be a case by case decision.

Sometimes horrific things like this happen. More often what you see are the occasional lapses when the pressure reaches a critical level. Maybe you are the perfect person who has never let circumstances get the better of him in a momentary lapse. If so, you should be doing the circuit because you obviously have something to teach us lesser mortals.

By all means don't read the article. You might wind up learning something that clutters up that simplistic bipolar mode of analysis where everything is black and white with no shades in between, which seems to be the favorite way for Americans to look at the world.

[thejeff]

Kryzbyn wrote:

What if it happens more than once to the same parent(s)?

If the one in a million chance happens to the same person twice? Then you're looking at actual intentional murder, most likely.

Or possibly mental issues. Not insanity, but dementia or early onset Alzheimer's or something.

But like the Kobold said, get back to me when it happens.

[BigNorseWolf]

Krensky wrote:

If you answered yes, then you could forget your kid in the car. No matteer what you think. You could.

If you answered no, you're lying.

Or too ugly to date.

[thejeff]

Krensky wrote:

It's not that the parents who this happens too are bad parents, or easily distracted, or selfish, or anyting else you tell yourself to distance yourself from them so you can dehumanbise them as monsters.

It's that our brains, our wonderful, wonderfuls brains that are capable of so many wonderful and amazing things are also crude, ugly, downright rude kludges that make even the most extravagant Rube Goldberg machine look simple nd elegant in comparison. These hacked together neuralogies are then run by the bit we inheritied from a lizard most of the time.

Have you ever forgotten your phone? Your purse or wallet? Your keys? A bag of groceries? A text book? Your work ID? To go to the grocery store? To pick up dry cleaning? Anything? Ever?

If you answered yes, then you could forget your kid in the car. No matteer what you think. You could.

If you answered no, you're lying.

There is no crime in almost all of these cases because there was no intent. It's not even crinminal negligence because that requires that the defendent did something knowingly.

Seriously, read the article. The part you want starts with the sentance: "David Diamond is picking at his breakfast at a Washington hotel, trying to explain."

It's a very human reaction though. We want there to be a reason. Not just a horrible accident. That gives us control.

We want them to have been bad, neglectful parents, because that means it couldn't happen to us, because we're not like that. We don't have to worry about it because we're careful and we'd never forget.

Of course, the worst thing about that is that it means people aren't interested in ways of preventing this. Gadgets that set off alarms if the kid's in the backseat when you leave or just simple techniques like the teddy bear on the front seat.
I wouldn't forget my kid. I don't need that to remind me.

[LazarX]

thejeff wrote:

Of course, the worst thing about that is that it means people aren't interested in ways of preventing this. Gadgets that set off alarms if the kid's in the backseat when you leave or just simple techniques like the teddy bear on the front seat.
I wouldn't forget my kid. I don't need that to remind me.

Everyone assumes that they'll never be the one to slip up tragically like this.... until it happens.

[Tacticslion]

Kobold Cleaver: I flagged your post as "Personal insult/abusive" because, having spoken much with captain yesterday, I'm quite positive you're assigning a deeply personal motive - malice and petty baiting - to what is, in fact, an honest emotional reaction and opinion. Stop that.

Thanks.

[captain yesterday]

I think the reason I've never forgotten my kids is because of that one letter *I* When I'm with my kids I always think in terms of *We* as in we're going to the store or we have to stop by uncle dirk's house on the way, not *I* have to do this or that.

Might not work for everyone, but we haven't forgotten a kid once yet in 11 years of parenting

And in regards to deleted posts, I thought that's what the delete button was for, they were insensitive which is why they were removed by me almost immediately :-)

[Kobold Catgirl]

Tactics, I understand why you flagged that post and don't object to it. I can't exactly say I'm sorry, but the post does deserve to be removed if you feel in such a way.

That said, captain yesterday might want to mind the way he portrays himself. You can't say what he's said and treat it like a joke. I think the +3 favorites on that post clearly demonstrate that I'm not the only person who was wondering whether or not he was approaching this issue sincerely.

[Tacticslion]

So, I'm going on record as noting that I disagree with both NobodysHome and captain yesterday - two people that I have high regard for - because of, as with many here, personal experience. Because of that high regard, it's difficult posting this, but hey, that's life.

Not too long ago, I had an appointment for my youngest child at a doctor's office that was a ways away.

I packed his food, had the diaper bag in the front, and had extra clothes ready to go. I was ready.

I picked up my oldest from school.

I'd been sleep deprived lately - various reasons, some reasonable, some dumb, but I was working to get enough sleep to function properly. I'd been having a bad day - three "bad news" calls, including the death of (distant) family members and family-friends, among others; as a result, I turned my cell phone to vibrate to ensure no more current distractions. We'd gone through rather extreme traffic, having to drive for an hour and half over what should be forty-five minutes of driving, had gotten bad food from our drive-through (meaning I had a hunger eldist child with plenty of food that'd gone bad before we ever got it, making it seem like I'm just taunting him...), and was running late.

We avoided a car accident, though narrowly several times (I don't know why the other car made that decision to cross three lanes, turn around twice at the light-change place, and then cut us off again, but I suspect substance abuse; I did not add my suspicion to the phone'd in report), and it was raining (a great thing, as I love the rain, but it's a pain to drive that far through with that much traffic and especially after harrowing traffic decisions). My eldest was bombarding me with questions - as is the wont of young children - and I was doing my best to get us there safely and without (anymore) incident.

We arrived, I parked right near the entrance, and I grabbed everything in the car, prevented my eldest from running into the street, held his hand, and walked quickly and safely into the doctor's office. At which point I realized, I'd left my youngest in the car. You know, the one that I was there to bring to the doctor. He was right there - it wasn't really any distance whatsoever to the car - but it was humiliating and terrifying. I felt horrible - like the worst kind of human - and had to restrain open weeping as I prayed repeatedly.

It took all of maaaaayyyyybe one minute, I guess?

It was eye-opening.

What if I was there for my eldest instead? Would I have remembered? What if I was there for some other reason entirely? What if what if what if whatif whatif whatif whatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifwhatifWhatIfWhatIfWhatIf
WHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIFWHATIF.

... goes through my head all the time.

When we were first pregnant, we took parenting classes. The nurses there were great, but they gave terrible, terrible stories about how to be a good parent. Things it seemed like everyone should know, of course: don't leave your child in the car, don't shake your baby (no matter how tired/exhausted/etc.), and so on. Really obvious stuff, for the most part (along with less-obvious things like a story about how a single mother strapped for cash accidentally killed her child with "water poisoning" - not "starvation" but "poisoning" - because she didn't add enough formula to the bottle - something I'd never even heard of before).

I'm not going to claim to be the best father.I can't: I've got my own dad and my father-in-law to compare myself to.

But I love my kids. I would die before hurting them.

And now, thanks to a very brief moment in time, I can empathize, thoroughly with someone who forgets them.

Attention Deficit? Maybe.

The thing is, I will agree with the captain: those who might forget don't deserve to have kids... but then again, I agree with the others in that I think it can happen to anyone. In case that's not clear, I don't think anyone deserves to have children, because that's treating it like a "right" like kids are something that we should have access to because they're property or something.

Instead, I look at them as an enormous responsibility. I look at it as something that is severe and in need of your every ounce of work. We don't deserve children, but they deserve good parents... and that's something you need to work at every day just to be.

I want to be a good parent, and I'm going to do my best - hopefully better, what with Aid Another checks from my wife! - but I harbor no illusions about the fragile nature of my own mind, and I harbor no ill-will towards those who've been harmed by their own forgetfulness and distraction.

What if?

I hope I would have remembered later. Maybe I would. I can't know. But I can know that I'll do my best not to forget again. I pray that's enough.

EDIT: to fix the page. Sorry.

EDIT 2: Worth noting that the time referred to above, was not the same as this one. Incident in question happened some time before the Trikethon was even a twinkle in the school's eye...

[Kobold Catgirl]

By the way, having read the full article, I regard the captain's vitriol towards these parents as "Personal insult/abusive". I haven't flagged him because he's not targeting a member of these boards, but his unabashed flaming against people he hasn't even bothered to educate himself about? That's not okay. He's approaching this horrible issue with total flippancy.*

That's why I can't say I'm exactly sorry, though I did promptly clarify my feelings a little on the next page.

*Yes, Captain, you are. If you weren't, you'd have bothered to read the article and learn the facts. You just don't appear to care that much—certainly not about facts that might contradict your worldview. Again, I would highly recommend that you read the article. It makes me and those debating with you uncomfortable that you don't feel obliged to inform your beliefs before deriding ours.

[GM Niles]

@Tacticslion My personal experience is very similar to yours man. The way I felt when my daughter said "Daddy, ducky" when I was 3/4 of the way to work...jeez. What if she hadn't spoke to me? What if she fell asleep?

[thejeff]

That's the thing. We're human. We screw up. We fail. It's what we do. Luckily we're usually pretty robust, but sometimes the consequences are serious.

But that's why acknowledging that possibility as horrifying as it is and taking measures to mitigate it is a much better approach than denying it. Gadgets to warn you. Teddy bears on the front seat. Rituals of checking the back everytime - not just a glance in the rear view mirror and not just when the kid is in the car, but everytime.

Sometimes simple things: From a completely different setting, but the same part of the human psyche - It's been shown that making doctors go through checklists during surgery drastically cuts down on medical errors. Even with good, experienced doctors, doing operations they'd done many times before. Doctors didn't like this to start with. It's insulting. They're the experts. Confident in their skill. They know what they're doing.
But it still works. Because they're human and they still make mistakes. Forget simple things. Sometimes with tragic consequences.

[Krensky]

captain yesterday wrote:

I think the reason I've never forgotten my kids is because of that one letter *I* When I'm with my kids I always think in terms of *We* as in we're going to the store or we have to stop by uncle dirk's house on the way, not *I* have to do this or that.

Might not work for everyone, but we haven't forgotten a kid once yet in 11 years of parenting

And in regards to deleted posts, I thought that's what the delete button was for, they were insensitive which is why they were removed by me almost immediately :-)

You haven't forgotten your kids because the holes haven't all lined up yet. There's an exceptionally good chance they never will. You're no better then the parents discussed in the article though. If you have ever forgotten anything, anywhere, at any point (and you have), well, you could forget your kid just as easily.

Sure, everyone has methods and routines to reinforce this stuff. No one is perfect though, and the machine that is you memory could fail at any time your basal ganglia shouts down your hippocampus or cerebral cortex and something doesn't reset your memory processes.

[captain yesterday]

Oh yes not reading a stupid article CNN has published 3 variations of in the last year and a half (of which I did read, wasn't pleasant) is abusive and insulting, bait much? Did not know trolls were so small, and such thin skin!

There you go, flag this :-)

[TriOmegaZero]

captain yesterday wrote:

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I wish I hadn't. It IS too heavy, for any day of the week.

[Krensky]

EDIT: Nevermind, I figured it out.

[Kobold Catgirl]

captain yesterday wrote:

Oh yes not reading a stupid article CNN has published 3 variations of in the last year and a half (of which I did read, wasn't pleasant) is abusive and insulting, bait much? Did not know trolls were so small, and such thin skin!

There you go, flag this :-)

I'm not a troll. I'm a kobold! You can tell by my teeth, which lack prominent incisors, and my upper-body strength, which is, proportionately speaking, substantially lower than that of a troll.

I'll admit, though, it's a bit easier to know how to react to you when you're going all-out assjackal. Thanks for that.

[Tacticslion]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

No I did not read the article, I doubt reading it will change my mind and that is too heavy for a Monday morning :-)

I wish I hadn't. It IS too heavy, for any day of the week.

Oof. Took me three sit-downs with an hour between just to get through it.

Hands-shaking, knee-vibrating, shiver-inducing wretchedness.

(Didn't alter my opinion at all, but it was... a heavy read.)

[TriOmegaZero]

The thing that comes to mind most readily is maintaining accountability of my assigned weapon while in the field.

Every waking moment of your day and even when you are asleep, you keep control of that weapon. It's drilled into you. The chain of command will drop on you like a ten ton sack of s~&* if you can't account for it.

And yet service members of every rank end up having that 'oh s+$&' moment once or twice.

You don't have that conditioning, that outside pressure as a parent. The internal pressure is there, of course.

But still, sometimes you forget, the same way sometimes lightning strikes.

[captain yesterday]

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

captain yesterday wrote:

Oh yes not reading a stupid article CNN has published 3 variations of in the last year and a half (of which I did read, wasn't pleasant) is abusive and insulting, bait much? Did not know trolls were so small, and such thin skin!

There you go, flag this :-)

I'm not a troll. I'm a kobold! You can tell by my teeth, which lack prominent incisors, and my upper-body strength, which is, proportionately speaking, substantially lower than that of a troll.

I'll admit, though, it's a bit easier to know how to react to you when you're going all-out assjackal. Thanks for that.

you got a problem with me outside this thread? You seemed to single me out, not sure why but if you got an axe to grind have at it:-)

[Yuugasa]

I honestly have nothing but sympathy for the parents, having lost a daughter myself I can tell you there is simply nothing in this world as painful as losing a child (I feel ok saying that as I've also been beaten nearly to death before and I have a nerve disorder that occasionally makes me feel like I am literally on fire, so, I have something to compare it to.)

If I had been responsible for that death too...I simply cannot imagine the suffering.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking this one. We're not comfortable facilitating a conversation that's already begun to become a platform for disparaging people regarding their decisions as parents and just flat out arguing. We welcome people from all backgrounds and this kind of topic doesn't contribute to the kind of environment we'd like to have around here.