Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Hello! I couldnt find an answer to this question with the search function, so thank you for your help.
If I am a human with normal vision, and I'm riding a horse with low-light vision, do areas of dim/shadowy illumination still count as difficult terrain?
Can I charge through this terrain or move at a normal speed if my horse can see just fine, even if I can't?
Thanks for your help!
johnnymac wrote: Hello! I couldnt find an answer to this question with the search function, so thank you for your help.
If I am a human with normal vision, and I'm riding a horse with low-light vision, do areas of dim/shadowy illumination still count as difficult terrain?
Can I charge through this terrain or move at a normal speed if my horse can see just fine, even if I can't?
Thanks for your help!
Yes, because the Horse will blindly follow the idiot directions of his rider for the most part.
First, expect table variation. :P
This is my interpretation:
1) Dim illumination provides concealment which results in a 20% miss chance, but this doesn't affect movement or the ability to charge at all.
2) If the rider can see, but the mount cannot, you can direct the mount to charge. You'll most likely need to make a Handle Animal check to push the mount to do this. It must then make a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone (for moving over half its speed). Because you can see, you can make a charge attack at the end of this movement. Because the mount cannot see, it doesn't gain the benefits of charging, and thus can't attack.
3) If the rider cannot see, but the mount can, you cannot direct the mount to charge using standard mounted combat rules. You could, however, use a trick or push the mount to "charge an enemy in that general direction". If you succeed, the mount could charge the enemy and you'd just be along for the ride. However, you'd have no direct control over the charge and are at the mercy of how the GM feels the mount would interpret your command.
Byakko wrote: First, expect table variation. :P
This is my interpretation:
1) Dim illumination provides concealment which results in a 20% miss chance, but this doesn't affect movement or the ability to charge at all.
2) If the rider can see, but the mount cannot, you can direct the mount to charge. You'll most likely need to make a Handle Animal check to push the mount to do this. It must then make a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone (for moving over half its speed). Because you can see, you can make a charge attack at the end of this movement. Because the mount cannot see, it doesn't gain the benefits of charging, and thus can't attack.
3) If the rider cannot see, but the mount can, you cannot direct the mount to charge using standard mounted combat rules. You could, however, use a trick or push the mount to "charge an enemy in that general direction". If you succeed, the mount could charge the enemy and you'd just be along for the ride. However, you'd have no direct control over the charge and are at the mercy of how the GM feels the mount would interpret your command.
3 won't work. You have to be able to see a target to charge.
PRD, Combat, Charge wrote: Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't designate an opponent if you can't see him (though you could argue that you know of an opponent and can designate him that way). You don't have line of sight to an opponent if you can't see him (far less wiggle room).
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
claudekennilol wrote: Byakko wrote: First, expect table variation. :P
This is my interpretation:
1) Dim illumination provides concealment which results in a 20% miss chance, but this doesn't affect movement or the ability to charge at all.
2) If the rider can see, but the mount cannot, you can direct the mount to charge. You'll most likely need to make a Handle Animal check to push the mount to do this. It must then make a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone (for moving over half its speed). Because you can see, you can make a charge attack at the end of this movement. Because the mount cannot see, it doesn't gain the benefits of charging, and thus can't attack.
3) If the rider cannot see, but the mount can, you cannot direct the mount to charge using standard mounted combat rules. You could, however, use a trick or push the mount to "charge an enemy in that general direction". If you succeed, the mount could charge the enemy and you'd just be along for the ride. However, you'd have no direct control over the charge and are at the mercy of how the GM feels the mount would interpret your command.
3 won't work. You have to be able to see a target to charge.
PRD, Combat, Charge wrote: Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't
... Well, let me clarify.
The rider and horse are outside on a starlit night, providing dim illumination. The rider *can* see his opponents, they're only 80 feet or so away... he just can't see them very well. If anyone has ever been outside at night in real life, use that for experience :).
Normally, however, dim illumination creates difficult terrain, so its impossible to charge. However, the horse can with his low light vision. One of my players has a combat trained horse animal companion. He pointed out the enemy 80 feet away, and told his horse to charge it.
The cavalier couldn't do this on his own - you can't charge over difficult terrain. Can he direct his horse to?
I guess as an extrapolation of this... is a human rider is riding around on a horse with low light vision at night... does he still move half speed, because the rider can't see perfectly? Or at the horse's normal speed, because the horse *can* see perfectly?
The mounted charging should not be impeded by the rider's vision. It should work.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Byakko wrote: First, expect table variation. :P
This is my interpretation:
1) Dim illumination provides concealment which results in a 20% miss chance, but this doesn't affect movement or the ability to charge at all.
2) If the rider can see, but the mount cannot, you can direct the mount to charge. You'll most likely need to make a Handle Animal check to push the mount to do this. It must then make a DC 10 Acrobatics check or fall prone (for moving over half its speed). Because you can see, you can make a charge attack at the end of this movement. Because the mount cannot see, it doesn't gain the benefits of charging, and thus can't attack.
3) If the rider cannot see, but the mount can, you cannot direct the mount to charge using standard mounted combat rules. You could, however, use a trick or push the mount to "charge an enemy in that general direction". If you succeed, the mount could charge the enemy and you'd just be along for the ride. However, you'd have no direct control over the charge and are at the mercy of how the GM feels the mount would interpret your command.
... I was under the impression that dim illumination creates difficult terrain for those affected by it. Am I wrong?
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wraithstrike wrote: The mounted charging should not be impeded by the rider's vision. It should work. Thanks, wraithstrike. It was just one of those things that, in the heat of the moment, we weren't really sure about. It seemed strange that having a mount would nullify a lot of the human illumination issues, but I guess you're right. I ruled the same way.
Thanks for the help :)
claudekennilol: I'm guessing you didn't read #3 closely? I suggest rereading it as you kinda missed what I was saying.
johnnymac: dim illumination, and even full darkness, have nothing to do with difficult terrain.
Byakko wrote: claudekennilol: I'm guessing you didn't read #3 closely? I suggest rereading it as you kinda missed what I was saying.
johnnymac: dim illumination, and even full darkness, have nothing to do with difficult terrain.
Yeah, I didn't read it closely enough. I wouldn't let the rider "push the animal to charge something that may be over there" though. Because when you direct an animal to attack, you again designate a specific target. But you're definitely right in that I misread what you were intending to say.
No problem. I wouldn't let them have the mount charge as part of mounted combat rules, either.
But in the context of simply commanding an animal to attack, using standard Handle Animal rules, I think it's reasonable to have the mount charge a foe (assuming it knows to do this sort of thing and can identify an enemy by itself).
Tigers, for instance, are probably naturally inclined to charge/pounce when attacking. So if you had a tiger animal companion and ordered it to attack an enemy by pointing in a general direction (or however handling animals actually works), they'd probably be happy to oblige regardless of your ability to see. If you happened to be mounted at the same time, you'd just kind of be brought along (although, as you've pointed out, you won't be able to perform a charge attack as part of this, since you don't meet the LoS requirements).
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