Draugr Captain at the Temple of Besmara


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


My team is running into a real problem with Inside Lucrehold. Since all of the henchmen are Draugr Captains, there is a very high chance (every attempt so far) of there being one at the Temple of Besmara location. Now, the Draugr Captain is immune to the Swashbuckling trait, and the location Temple of Besmara gives all checks "the Pirate or Swashbuckling trait". So, is the Draugr Captain sitting at the Temple of Besmara just completely invulnerable? Even if you chase the villain to that location, you have at best a 50/50 shot of encountering it before the Captain, and encountering the captain makes you pitch your hand unless you have armor to absorb the 27 damage you're about to take.

It just seems like it can't be the spirit of the game that there exists henchman that is literally impossible to hurt. I think this is an unintended effect of the two cards in tandem. Thoughts?


I believe the Shrine to Besmara says "Your checks have the Pirate or Swashbuckling trait." That sounds like a choice between the two. So just choose Pirate.


Also, would this even work in the event that it did just give the swashbuckling trait? Immunity means you effectively can't play cards or use effects that grant the power. As far as I'm aware, immunity doesn't mean 'your check is zero if it's immune.' So, in that hypothetical (no Pirate option) case, I think you'd just ignore the power of the temple of Besmara, wouldn't you?


I was thinking about that too when I posted. Here is the rule about immunity:

S&S Rulebook p10 wrote:
If the card you’re encountering states that it is immune to a particular trait, players may not play cards with the specified trait, use powers that would add that trait to the check, or roll dice with that trait during the encounter.

So the question, if it hypothetically said "and" instead of "or" in the location power, would be, does "use powers that would add that trait to the check" cover a location power like this?

At first I thought Toxic Cloud was a similar example. Once in play, that card's power isn't worded to be optional either. But you aren't using the power once Toxic Cloud is in play. What prohibits an "in-play" Toxic Cloud for a bane immune to the poison trait is the "roll dice with that trait" part. You simply don't get to roll the dice with that trait.

I think I would conclude though that the "use powers" part doesn't care whether the power is optional or not. If the power would add that trait to the check, you just can't use it, regardless of whether you would normally make a choice about activating that power.

It seems to run a bit counter to the golden rule (cards overrule the rulebooK) and the immunity rule doesn't say "never" (which lets the rulebook trump cards) but given the situation it would create, I'd think it was the most logical application.

Thankfully though, this says "or" and we don't have to go there (yet).


isaic16 wrote:
Also, would this even work in the event that it did just give the swashbuckling trait? Immunity means you effectively can't play cards or use effects that grant the power. As far as I'm aware, immunity doesn't mean 'your check is zero if it's immune.' So, in that hypothetical (no Pirate option) case, I think you'd just ignore the power of the temple of Besmara, wouldn't you?

There are cases, however, where a trait can be applied before the immunity comes into play. Consider the case of an Ally-granted explore, which puts Swashbuckling on its combat check. Swashbuckling isn't optional; it's part of the explore's checks.

The same thing happens with the location power: Swashbuckling becomes part of the explore's checks. Thus:

Damiel tries to pull out his Alchemist's Fire... but it would deal Ranged Alchemical Fire Swashbuckling damage, so he can't do it. He can't molotov his Buoyancy spell, because it would add +1d6 (Fire or Poison) Swashbuckling damage. Lirianne tries to help, but her remote shooting ability adds +1d4... which picks up Swashbuckling because the check is at T. of Besmara --- so she can't do that. In desperation, Damiel tries to punch the Draugr Captain... but his raw Str roll has Swashbuckling, so he doesn't even get to do that!

Tallying up all the dice Damiel couldn't roll for the check, he gets a total of 0.

I forget if the Draugr Captain forces a Fortitude check the way ordinary Draugr do; but if he does... then the Con/Fort check would ALSO have Swashbuckling and be subject to the Draugr Captain's immunity.

---

Luckily, though, T. of Besmara DOES have the Pirate option, which savvy players would be well-advised to take.


So, this might sound stupid, but hear me out.

The wording on the Temple of Besmara is really weird. As far as I can recall, there is no other card in the game that adds "one or the other" trait to your checks. Do we know for sure that we get to choose it? That seems like the answer that would make the most sense, but there is no documentation anywhere I can find that supports it. Other possibilities include random determination, or alternating back and forth.... or maybe it's even supposed to be restrictive rather than additive, as in "a check that has the pirate trait may not also have the swashbuckling trait, and vice versa".

Please understand, I'm not trying to disagree with you. In fact my tendency is towards concurrance. I'm just wondering, how do we know for sure? Where, if anywhere, does it say exactly what that means?


I have an example: Damiel's molotov ability lets you add 1d6 and the Poison or Fire trait. (It's not actually called molotov, that's just what I call it.)

"Or" does one of two things in this game.

1. P or Q, as If !P then Q.

This applies in cases such as Shipwreck Graveyard's location power, or drowning type Task Barriers: you must succeed at a check, or something bad happens. (If you think about it, all checks against boons work this way: succeed at the check to acquire or banish the boon.)

2. P or Q, as P XOR Q.

This applies in cases such as Damiel's molotov power, close abilities that say "succeed at a check or banish a card with X trait," and here at Shrine of Besmara. You choose either P or Q for how to resolve the effect, and then resolve it as such.

"Your checks have the Pirate or Swashbuckling trait" means that for each check you make at S. of Bessy, you choose whether the location adds Pirate or Swashbuckling.

-----

It's never restrictive, because traits can't be removed unless they are explicitly removed by some power (and I believe there is a card that can add or remove Swashbuckling.) So if Jirelle plays a Rapier, she still adds Swashbuckling to that combat check even if the location is adding Pirate.

ETA: There is a third use of "or" that comes up: If P or Q, then W. Several powers offer you a few different ways to invoke them. :)


Turantula wrote:

So, this might sound stupid, but hear me out.

The wording on the Temple of Besmara is really weird. As far as I can recall, there is no other card in the game that adds "one or the other" trait to your checks. Do we know for sure that we get to choose it? That seems like the answer that would make the most sense, but there is no documentation anywhere I can find that supports it. Other possibilities include random determination, or alternating back and forth.... or maybe it's even supposed to be restrictive rather than additive, as in "a check that has the pirate trait may not also have the swashbuckling trait, and vice versa".

Please understand, I'm not trying to disagree with you. In fact my tendency is towards concurrance. I'm just wondering, how do we know for sure? Where, if anywhere, does it say exactly what that means?

When I first read it, it came off as a bit weird to me too, so I understand where you are coming from. There really isn't much in the rules about how to read the powers. All I can say is, what else could you possibly take the power to mean? I don't think there is another way to understand it other than what I said above. It might have been a bit more obvious if it was worded as "Add the Pirate or Swashbuckling trait to all your checks." But even as written, I can't come up with another possible way to understand it.

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