Contributor
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A local game store owner has expressed interest in getting Pathfinder Society started at her store. I couldn't answer all her questions, though, so I figured I'd ask around here. Please be gentle. :)
1a) Is there any way for a new player to try PFS at no cost? I know players are supposed to have the books for their characters, and I believe the Core Rulebook is mandatory.
1b) Does this apply to pregens? If someone wanted to try the game, could I just hand them Valeros or Seelah, no purchase required?
1c) How many people can share a book? I believe a family can share a CRB, for example.
2a) How expensive is it as a GM? I'm probably going to have to cover this myself. I have an extremely broad library, so I'm not too worried.
2b) Are there any costs other than scenarios? What do I need on hand?
3) Is there a page that will walk me through how to run scenarios, required schedules, and reporting? Also, where are the pregens and other resources?
4) Are there any direct incentives for the store running the event? She's been running D&D Encounters, which I don't know a lot about.
5) Is there anything else I should know?
Thank you in advance for your assistance. :)
Assistant Developer
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Thank you for your help in getting Pathfinder Society Organized Play started at a new store!
Your local PFS coordinators, called venture-captains and venture-lieutenants, would be the best people to talk to about any questions or concerns that you have. They can also connect you with other local players who might be interested in gaming at that store. Their contact information appears in the back of the Guide to Organized Play and also under Regional Coordinators on the GM Resources page.
If you don't have a Venture Officer nearby, the Local Chapter Handout on the GM Resources page has tips for getting started, as well as the contact information for Mike Brock, the campaign coordinator for Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
As for how to prepare to run scenarios, well, there isn't a "right" way to prep, but here are a few things I've found to be particularly useful.
1) Unless you are a walking rules encyclopedia, having the relevant rules on hand is pretty useful. Sticky notes in books, printed pages of rules, margin notes, whatever works for you. Less time spent flipping pages=more player engagement.
2) Pathfinder Wiki is an excellent resource for world lore. If you come across a proper noun and you have no idea what it is, try punching it in to Pathfinder Wiki, and you'll usually find cool information that you can use to add extra flavor to a scenario, or answer player's curveball questions.
3) You can often find resources and advice from other GMs who have run the scenario before. The top two places to look are the PFS shared prep forum and this section of the messageboards.
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Contributor
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Some background on myself: I've been playing and running since late 2e D&D. I moved to Pathfinder when the CRB came out. I consider myself an expert on Golarion lore and the Pathfinder ruleset.
I have access to virtually everything printed for Pathfinder - hardcovers, Player Companions, Campaign Setting material, APs/modules, Bestiaries, etc. I also have every Flip-Mat I could still get, and a very deep minis collection. :)
I'm more concerned about the specifics of running for PFS. There's a lot of administrative paperwork, both for me and for players, and I want to make sure I'm doing all of that correctly. I've downloaded and read the Guide (thank you, LazarX). I used to run the D&D Game Days for this store, so I have a pretty good handle on new players and pregens. :)
Some more questions:
1) I know this will sound controversial, but can I pre-ban players from events? I want to make sure peoples' initial experience is good, and there are some local players known for trollish behavior and general poor team play. I don't want to have to kick them mid-session, as that might still be disruptive.
2) The store is free-to-sit. What sort of prize support are we describing? I'm guessing boons...
3) What do I need to print for an event? I'm assuming a full set of CRB pregens, since that's what I'm likely to have people use. Anything else? I have a laptop for all my PDFs.
4) Is there a good adventure to introduce players with? I've kind of picked up that First Steps and The Confirmation were made for this.
5a) Can a player "adopt" a pregen, e.g., start leveling it as their own character?
5b) Can they use the 1st level retrain to become something else?
5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Again, thank you for your assistance. :)
Some background on myself: I've been playing and running since late 2e D&D. I moved to Pathfinder when the CRB came out. I consider myself an expert on Golarion lore and the Pathfinder ruleset.
I have access to virtually everything printed for Pathfinder - hardcovers, Player Companions, Campaign Setting material, APs/modules, Bestiaries, etc. I also have every Flip-Mat I could still get, and a very deep minis collection. :)
I'm more concerned about the specifics of running for PFS. There's a lot of administrative paperwork, both for me and for players, and I want to make sure I'm doing all of that correctly. I've downloaded and read the Guide (thank you, LazarX). I used to run the D&D Game Days for this store, so I have a pretty good handle on new players and pregens. :)
Some more questions:
1) I know this will sound controversial, but can I pre-ban players from events? I want to make sure peoples' initial experience is good, and there are some local players known for trollish behavior and general poor team play. I don't want to have to kick them mid-session, as that might still be disruptive.
2) The store is free-to-sit. What sort of prize support are we describing? I'm guessing boons...
3) What do I need to print for an event? I'm assuming a full set of CRB pregens, since that's what I'm likely to have people use. Anything else? I have a laptop for all my PDFs.
4) Is there a good adventure to introduce players with? I've kind of picked up that First Steps and The Confirmation were made for this.
5a) Can a player "adopt" a pregen, e.g., start leveling it as their own character?
5b) Can they use the 1st level retrain to become something else?
5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Again, thank you for your assistance. :)
1. You can not ban a player, but there are ways around it such as playing above their tier, or at least agreeing to do so then running at the original tier once they left. <--I think this was suggested when another GM had a similar problem.
I think there are other ways also, but I forgot what they were.
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Some background on myself: I've been playing and running since late 2e D&D. I moved to Pathfinder when the CRB came out. I consider myself an expert on Golarion lore and the Pathfinder ruleset.
I have access to virtually everything printed for Pathfinder - hardcovers, Player Companions, Campaign Setting material, APs/modules, Bestiaries, etc. I also have every Flip-Mat I could still get, and a very deep minis collection. :)
I'm more concerned about the specifics of running for PFS. There's a lot of administrative paperwork, both for me and for players, and I want to make sure I'm doing all of that correctly. I've downloaded and read the Guide (thank you, LazarX). I used to run the D&D Game Days for this store, so I have a pretty good handle on new players and pregens. :)
Some more questions:
1) I know this will sound controversial, but can I pre-ban players from events? I want to make sure peoples' initial experience is good, and there are some local players known for trollish behavior and general poor team play. I don't want to have to kick them mid-session, as that might still be disruptive.
2) The store is free-to-sit. What sort of prize support are we describing? I'm guessing boons...
3) What do I need to print for an event? I'm assuming a full set of CRB pregens, since that's what I'm likely to have people use. Anything else? I have a laptop for all my PDFs.
4) Is there a good adventure to introduce players with? I've kind of picked up that First Steps and The Confirmation were made for this.
5a) Can a player "adopt" a pregen, e.g., start leveling it as their own character?
5b) Can they use the 1st level retrain to become something else?
5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Again, thank you for your assistance. :)
2. Prize support from Paizo generally comes for conventions of 15 or more tables in a weekend. Best place to check is your Venture Officers.
3. You -must- print a signin sheet for the event, and chronicles for the GM and each player. Anything else is gravy. You will need maps, and the players will need characters, so pregens will be useful as will play maps.
4. The Wounded Wisp is also a replayable beginner's scenario. In We Be Goblins the players get to play pregenerated little terrors. It can be great fun.
5a. Yes. Just have them rebuild it enough to make it a correct character, and account for all the gear. Usually pregens can be improved upon easily. A name change is likely in order, so the player doesn't run into another character of the same name.
5b. Yes. The first level retrain is very liberal, to allow for players to try out different classes and races. Once the character is played at 2nd level, no more such changes allowed.
5c. Please support Paizo and your FLGS. If there is a possibility, they should get the CRB, in dead tree or PDF form. PDF's are only about $10 for most hardbacks.
You are certainly welcome!
PS: Yes, I skipped #1. Don't know for sure.
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As far as number one goes, you can ban players, but it needs to be for darn good reasons. When you run your event talk to the problem person(s) and let them know the basic rule in PFS for players: don't be a jerk. Make sure they understand PvP is not allowed and wantonly evil acts will get their characters removed from play. I would give them a chance though, they might surprise you.
As far as Wraithstrike's suggestion goes, absolutely don't do that. In your case, it sounds like it doesn't matter, since you're starting PFS from scratch. Don't respond to peoples' disruptive and jerky behavior with a jerk move of your own. That's it for my PFSSA (Pathfinder Society Service Announcement), I'll get off my High Horse.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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While outright banning someone is pretty hard, you can always reserve the right not to GM for an individual. It means they can go and play PFS somewhere else, but you dont have to deal with them.
While you should give everyone the benefit of a doubt, if those players have already proven themselves to be jerks in other campaigns, you dont have to indulge them just because they switched game systems.
As far as number one goes, you can ban players, but it needs to be for darn good reasons. When you run your event talk to the problem person(s) and let them know the basic rule in PFS for players: don't be a jerk. Make sure they understand PvP is not allowed and wantonly evil acts will get their characters removed from play. I would give them a chance though, they might surprise you.
As far as Wraithstrike's suggestion goes, absolutely don't do that. In your case, it sounds like it doesn't matter, since you're starting PFS from scratch. Don't respond to peoples' disruptive and jerky behavior with a jerk move of your own. That's it for my PFSSA (Pathfinder Society Service Announcement), I'll get off my High Horse.
I have not played a PFS game yet, but I read the boards here because I am always considering it. This is different from what I read, and yeah I agree the being passive-aggressive is not a good idea. That answer I gave was the one I read due to a GM supposedly not being about to turn a player down.
Now if a player constantly causes trouble(social issues, not just making super powerful characters) what constitutes being bad enough to be able to ban him from a table? I think this is a good thing to discuss so others can know.|
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It's about time, I thought that fool would never get down...
You were carrying a gug. I don't blame you.
@Kalindlara
I'm just curious as to why you'd think players with known problems would come back? Seems fairly obvious to me that if I got kicked out of a group by a GM, that person probably wouldn't want me at any other tables they run in the future, regardless of system. Have potential players tried to do so before?
While outright banning someone is pretty hard, you can always reserve the right not to GM for an individual. It means they can go and play PFS somewhere else, but you dont have to deal with them.
And there's this. I've never heard of anyone being completely banned from any PFS Organized function entirely on a global scale. I'm not sure its even possible to actually enforce something like that. Locally, however, is a different story.
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I have not played a PFS game yet, but I read the boards here because I am always considering it.
For as often as I see you on these boards, I'm surprised. ^_^
Now as for potential issues, that's one that'll dig up alot of debate. I do have a recent example of a player that was banned locally in my area about a year ago. Let's call him Player X.
Player X was relatively new to Pathfinder and had just found our local lodge. He had a hardcopy of the Core Rulebook he always brought with him as it was the only book he owned. Player X also had a severe hygiene problem. It was very obvious. Many people complained about being near him much less having to sit next to him for 4-5 hours.
To complicate matters further, Player X needed to be reminded on multiple occasions on basic principles, such as how armor worked, movement rules, action economy, ect. At first, Player X was receptive. However as time went on, Player X became very combative towards his GMs and fellow players as to how the rules worked to a point where it was disruptive to gameplay.
After three months, it was decided as a lodge that Player X was too disruptive to allow seating him. In this situation, we had an individual who definitely had some social issues, however seem cognizant enough to be aware and capable of retaining information. How well exactly, I'm not sure as there were times many of us went "Where'd the heck did he get that idea?". It could've been possible that the Pathfinder ruleset was simply too complicated for Player X to grasp. We'll never know for sure. As for the hygiene issue, that's fixable. He had been informed on several occasions that it was an issue. However, nothing ever seemed to change about it.
I think my local lodge really tried its best to be as patient as possible with Player X, but it really just wasn't working out. I think the above example is a good case for banning a player locally. Other red flags that I think could qualify, taking actions (or not taking actions) that directly hinder or prohibit the group from achieving the group's objectives.
That comes with a caveat, however. Say for example, a sorcerer knows there's a bunch of invisible baddies lying in wait in a room thanks to an awesome Perception check. What that sorcerer doesn't know is that the hostages you are trying to save are also invisible and captive in the room. Sorcerer throws a fireball into the room, drawing out the baddies but inadvertently killing the hostages. The incident costs the table a prestige point. In this case, the player simply had no idea this was the case and did not have the means to detect otherwise. It was an honest mistake. Now, had that same player had the means to use See Invisibility and know the hostages were there, yet threw the fireball anyway, that could be construed as disruptive as that player made the whole table suffer for their actions.
Generally speaking, you're expected to work together as a team to solve problems. Actions that are blatantly hindering to the combined effort tend to fall under the golden rule of PFS.
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5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Mike said that you're expected to buy the CRB (PDF or dead tree) after 2 or 3 sessions.
Which is completly reasonable. I feel like forcing players to buy the Core Rules right away is always a huge turn-off. Yes, they are expected to have it handy, but it often takes people a few slots to really find out if PFS is something for them. Once they hit level 2 or so I'd increase the nagging, but as long as there are enough rule books at the table I'd not get too worried about forcing everybody to buy the CRB right away. That's what the PRD is there for, isn't it?And really, 10$ for a PDF isn't too much to ask for.
(Yeah, plus printing costs - but really the only chapters you regularly need at the game table are your class + the combat chapter. Magic + your spells if you're a caster.)
Also he said this wise thing here:
I'm not interested in or going to list out the various possibilities, exceptions, etc... that this would entail. As Walter said, we can direct those very literal people to the first line under Core Assumption: "The leadership of this campaign assumes you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules.
Common sense does not mean making an 11 year old buy a book when they don't even have a job. Common sense is if someone is out of work, and start playing PFS, we aren't going to require them to buy a book until they have the financial means to do so. There are many, many numerous examples such as these that could be listed, and doing so would probably create a list 200+ entries long, that were made "official" exceptions, would have to be referenced every time someone didnt bring a book to the table.
Use common sense please.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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As far as number one goes, you can ban players, but it needs to be for darn good reasons. When you run your event talk to the problem person(s) and let them know the basic rule in PFS for players: don't be a jerk. Make sure they understand PvP is not allowed and wantonly evil acts will get their characters removed from play. I would give them a chance though, they might surprise you.
As far as Wraithstrike's suggestion goes, absolutely don't do that. In your case, it sounds like it doesn't matter, since you're starting PFS from scratch. Don't respond to peoples' disruptive and jerky behavior with a jerk move of your own. That's it for my PFSSA (Pathfinder Society Service Announcement), I'll get off my High Horse.
I have not played a PFS game yet, but I read the boards here because I am always considering it. This is different from what I read, and yeah I agree the being passive-aggressive is not a good idea. That answer I gave was the one I read due to a GM supposedly not being about to turn a player down.
Now if a player constantly causes trouble(social issues, not just making super powerful characters) what constitutes being bad enough to be able to ban him from a table? I think this is a good thing to discuss so others can know.
I started PFS about 8 months ago, and while I was a forum regular for many years, there is definitely a pretty huge disconnect between forum arguments and actual play.
Regarding this specific topic, there are ways to deal with this kind of situation.
EDIT: It is really hard to find hard and fast rules on disruptive characters, but it is usually always the behavior of the player, rather than their character stats that cause problems.
I think the rules also change depending on the situation, the kind of jokes an can make in a group of adults is a bit more inclusive, that what I will say when a teenager or child is on the table.
EDIT 2: Just try PFS, it's fun and you really won't lose anything. I don't know where you live, but there should be a Venture Officer somewhere near. Just send them a message and as for a good opportunity to try it.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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S
1) I know this will sound controversial, but can I pre-ban players from events? I want to make sure peoples' initial experience is good, and there are some local players known for trollish behavior and general poor team play. I don't want to have to kick them mid-session, as that might still be disruptive.
2) The store is free-to-sit. What sort of prize support are we describing? I'm guessing boons...
3) What do I need to print for an event? I'm assuming a full set of CRB pregens, since that's what I'm likely to have people use. Anything else? I have a laptop for all my PDFs.
4) Is there a good adventure to introduce players with? I've kind of picked up that First Steps and The Confirmation were made for this.
5a) Can a player "adopt" a pregen, e.g., start leveling it as their own character?
5b) Can they use the 1st level retrain to become something else?
5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Again, thank you for your assistance. :)
1. If you are the organizer, I would suggest the following. Push pre-registration, and decide where to put your problem players. Ideally put them all on a separate table with a GM that can handle them, if said GM doesn't want to or just gives up, just hand them their chronicle sheets and send them away. Or ideally talk to the store owner, she is of course allowed to limit who can participate in events in her store.
You can also run "private" events in the game store, put up a signing sheet and let players contact you. Set a date and time for this game, and don't allow walk ins. No one has a right to enter a private game, even when run at a table that so happens to be in a game store.
If you do an open event, banning known trolls isn't really an option (other than the owner banning them from the store or kicking them out if they don't behave) but as the organizer you still have a certain amount of options.
You control the number of tables (of course depending on location) the number of GMs and the scenarios you offer, there are quite a number of newer scenarios that punish disruptive players quite severely (if they just want to morderhobo the scenario).
And of course the GM is the final arbiter of unclear rules, if problematic players cause trouble with characters that depend on a certain unclear reading of the source material, the GM is empowered to make a ruling one way or the other.
You have to be clever about this, open events are open to everybody, but an invitation only event at the local game store should work (of course this is a measure of last resort to protect new players, ideally you never actually want to have to do this. )
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Contributor
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5c) If they do so, they then need the CRB. Can someone play pregens consistently without a purchase? (Should I dissuade them from doing so?)
Mike said that you're expected to buy the CRB (PDF or dead tree) after 2 or 3 sessions.
Which is completly reasonable. I feel like forcing players to buy the Core Rules right away is always a huge turn-off. Yes, they are expected to have it handy, but it often takes people a few slots to really find out if PFS is something for them. Once they hit level 2 or so I'd increase the nagging, but as long as there are enough rule books at the table I'd not get too worried about forcing everybody to buy the CRB right away. That's what the PRD is there for, isn't it?
And really, 10$ for a PDF isn't too much to ask for.
(Yeah, plus printing costs - but really the only chapters you regularly need at the game table are your class + the combat chapter. Magic + your spells if you're a caster.)Also he said this wise thing here:
I'm not interested in or going to list out the various possibilities, exceptions, etc... that this would entail. As Walter said, we can direct those very literal people to the first line under Core Assumption: "The leadership of this campaign assumes you will use common sense in your interpretation of the rules.
Common sense does not mean making an 11 year old buy a book when they don't even have a job. Common sense is if someone is out of work, and start playing PFS, we aren't going to require them to buy a book until they have the financial means to do so. There are many, many numerous examples such as these that could be listed, and doing so would probably create a list 200+ entries long, that were made "official" exceptions, would have to be referenced every time someone didnt bring a book to the table.
Use common sense please.
Thank you for linking this post! This puts my mind greatly at ease. I will encourage them to buy the book, then, and if some are blatantly taking advantage, I will consider what might be done.
The store owner will probably not be pleased if I recommend the PDF too much, though... :)
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Contributor
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1. If you are the organizer, I would suggest the following. Push pre-registration, and decide where to put your problem players. Ideally put them all on a separate table with a GM that can handle them, if said GM doesn't want to or just gives up, just hand them their chronicle sheets and send them away. Or ideally talk to the store owner, she is of course allowed to limit who can participate in events in her store.
You can also run "private" events in the game store, put up a signing sheet and let players contact you. Set a date and time for this game, and don't allow walk ins. No one has a right to enter a private game, even when run at a table that so happens to be in a game store.
If you do an open event, banning known trolls isn't really an option (other than the owner banning them from the store or kicking them out if they don't behave) but as the organizer you still have a certain amount of options.
You control the number of tables (of course depending on location) the number of GMs and the scenarios you offer, there are quite a number of newer scenarios that punish disruptive players quite severely (if they just want to morderhobo the scenario).And of course the GM is the final arbiter of unclear rules, if problematic players cause trouble with characters that depend on a certain unclear reading of the source material, the GM is empowered to make a ruling one way or the other.
You have to be clever about this, open events are open to everybody, but an invitation only event at the local game store should work (of course this is a measure of last resort to protect new players, ideally you never actually want to have to do this. )
Thank you! It is likely that I'll have a list of players in advance. If I can pre-select the group, I should be fine. It's only a couple of outliers I'm worried about. Open events will be waiting a little while. :)
I'm not worried about unclear rules. It's more the type of players who might try to disrupt an adventure. "I shoot the diplomat in the face", type of thing.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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1. If you are the organizer, I would suggest the following. Push pre-registration, and decide where to put your problem players. Ideally put them all on a separate table with a GM that can handle them, if said GM doesn't want to or just gives up, just hand them their chronicle sheets and send them away. Or ideally talk to the store owner, she is of course allowed to limit who can participate in events in her store.
You can also run "private" events in the game store, put up a signing sheet and let players contact you. Set a date and time for this game, and don't allow walk ins. No one has a right to enter a private game, even when run at a table that so happens to be in a game store.
If you do an open event, banning known trolls isn't really an option (other than the owner banning them from the store or kicking them out if they don't behave) but as the organizer you still have a certain amount of options.
You control the number of tables (of course depending on location) the number of GMs and the scenarios you offer, there are quite a number of newer scenarios that punish disruptive players quite severely (if they just want to morderhobo the scenario).And of course the GM is the final arbiter of unclear rules, if problematic players cause trouble with characters that depend on a certain unclear reading of the source material, the GM is empowered to make a ruling one way or the other.
You have to be clever about this, open events are open to everybody, but an invitation only event at the local game store should work (of course this is a measure of last resort to protect new players, ideally you never actually want to have to do this. )
Thank you! It is likely that I'll have a list of players in advance. If I can pre-select the group, I should be fine. It's only a couple of outliers I'm worried about. Open events will be waiting a little while. :)
I'm not worried about unclear rules. It's more the type of players who might try to disrupt an adventure. "I...
In that case, you might want to ask for scenarios where such a behavior get "punished". For example in the Dissapeared, attack any Diplomats pretty guarantees the failure of the mission, and possibly the death of the players.
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Contributor
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In that case, you might want to ask for scenarios where such a behavior get "punished". For example in the Dissapeared, attack any Diplomats pretty guarantees the failure of the mission, and possibly the death of the players.
That's what I'm worried about, actually. :)
I don't want a scenario where their actions hurt the rest of the party. If I could dump them in their own group, as in a larger game-day event, I'd be fine with that. But I don't want their actions to ruin others' first experience.
Thank you for the suggestion, though. :)
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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In that case, you might want to ask for scenarios where such a behavior get "punished". For example in the Dissapeared, attack any Diplomats pretty guarantees the failure of the mission, and possibly the death of the players.That's what I'm worried about, actually. :)
I don't want a scenario where their actions hurt the rest of the party. If I could dump them in their own group, as in a larger game-day event, I'd be fine with that. But I don't want their actions to ruin others' first experience.
Thank you for the suggestion, though. :)
In that case, use your time with a limited group to educate your players, so they learn that killing everything in sight... really is not a great idea.
Ideally your "educated" player should be able to stop the problem players from ruining the scenario for everyone.
But yeah, protecting those new players seems like a very good idea.