Nonlethal damage based party?

[Douglas Muir 406]

The bad things about nonlethal damage are (1) it doesn't stack with real damage, and (2) there are a bunch of things that are immune to it. The good thing about nonlethal damage is that it renders foes unconscious instead of killing them. Which means you can still kill them at your leisure, but you also get a bunch of options -- capture, interrogation, ransom, you name it.

Since lethal and nonlethal damage don't stack, the key to success is that *everyone* should be dealing nonlethal damage. So: is it possible to build a party around this concept? Obviously this would be a pretty suboptimal build for a PC party in most campaigns, but it could be interesting in some situations. And a nonlethal-optimized group of NPCs could be excellent recurring opponents: they don't kill the PCs, they just knock them out, take their stuff, and bring them in to face the Duke's justice...

Rogue types: the sap adept, sap master, and knockout artist feats are the way to go here. As noted recently, with these feats it's not too hard to build a character that can do ~40 points of nonlethal with a single SA at 4th level.

Melee types: at low levels, the bludgeoner or stage combatant feats and/or the blade of mercy trait. At higher levels, a merciful magical weapon. Either way, the enforcer feat (free intimidate check when you deal nonlethal) is a must.

Casters: it's a fairly short list of useful spells... touch of mercy, admonishing ray (a must-have), pain strike, and that's about it. You want the Merciful Spell feat, or a metamagic rod (protip: these are surprisingly cheap.) Otherwise, casters in this party are more about enchantment, control, and buffing.

Thoughts?

Doug M.

[Kalindlara]

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Since lethal and nonlethal damage don't stack

Why don't they stack? Have I been reading something wrong? :/

[Nawtyit]

Merciful weapons.
Unarmed strikes can be nonlethal with no penalty.
Grappling can do nonlethal and has some feats that help.
Some controller spells would help too. Things like sleep.

[Nawtyit]

Kalindlara wrote:

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Since lethal and nonlethal damage don't stack

Why don't they stack? Have I been reading something wrong? :/

They don't "stack". They are separate.

CRB wrote:

Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

[Kalindlara]

Nawtyit wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Since lethal and nonlethal damage don't stack

Why don't they stack? Have I been reading something wrong? :/

They don't "stack". They are separate.

CRB wrote:

Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious.

The bolded portion is what I was thinking of. :)

[mplindustries]

Yeah, they do sort of stack. If I have 20 max HP, and I take 10 nonlethal damage, nothing happens. But if I then take 11 lethal damage, my HPs are down to 9. Since I have 10 nonlethal and 10 > 9, I fall unconscious. So, yes, they totally "stack."

[Helix7901]

mplindustries wrote:

Yeah, they do sort of stack. If I have 20 max HP, and I take 10 nonlethal damage, nothing happens. But if I then take 11 lethal damage, my HPs are down to 9. Since I have 10 nonlethal and 10 > 9, I fall unconscious. So, yes, they totally "stack."

That's about right. You basically just need one guy doing regular non-lethal damage to make this work.

On the casters side (at least half-casters) you also have the Frostbite Magus build.

[Domestichauscat]

This would be an interesting idea for a medieval superhero kind of game. Like Scarlet Pimpernel stuff.

[Nawtyit]

One counts down while the other counts up. They definitely interact with each other, but 10 lethal plus 10 nonlethal does not equal 20 damage. Consider if a target takes 10 lethal plus 10 nonlethal and gets healed for 10 damage. Healing also heals an equal amount of nonlethal damage, so they actually heal all the damage they have taken in that instance.

[Kalindlara]

Domestichauscat wrote:

This would be an interesting idea for a medieval superhero kind of game. Like Scarlet Pimpernel stuff.

Or for Council of Thieves, which if I recall (may have just been my edits) rewards you for leaving certain types of foe (such as Hellknights) alive. Good times. :)

[Kalindlara]

Nawtyit wrote:

One counts down while the other counts up. They definitely interact with each other, but 10 lethal plus 10 nonlethal does not equal 20 damage. Consider if a target takes 10 lethal plus 10 nonlethal and gets healed for 10 damage. Healing also heals an equal amount of nonlethal damage, so they actually heal all the damage they have taken in that instance.

Healing is definitely a factor, I'll agree. One of the biggest factors in not using it against PCs, unfortunately. :(

[Issac Daneil]

For the purpose of numbers; once the character has taken 30 / 28 points of damage, in any mixture of lethal or nonlethal, he goes unconcious. This is because his current hp is less then his current nonlethal damage, since the real damage kept lowering his current hp, until it was beneath his nonlethal damage accumulated.

The major drawback to lethal + nonlethal combat however is that Healing spells heal those pools seperately and equally, so a character gets double mileage out of healing spells.