Racial Point Calculation


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hey all. I have a new player coming into my Pathfinder campaign who is wanting to play a giant. When we first set up the campaign I allowed for the players to have access to any race that was equal to or less racial points than the drow noble. That's 41 RP for those who don't know how much a drow noble is worth off hand.

So my question is, do any of you know of a giant race that would be 41 RP or less? I'm considering having him make a half giant instead, if the other giants are out of the ballpark.

Thanks all!
- S.N. Rivers

Shadow Lodge

Full giants are very powerful. You'll need a half-giant.

The weakest giant type humanoid is a half-ogre. They're worth 27 RP... if you don't count the two racial hit dice, which are hard to quantify.

Traits:
+6 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. (18 rp, paragon for +4 Str, -2 Int, Cha, Wis, then +2 Str +4 Con +2 Wis)
Darkvision: Half-ogres can see in the dark up to 60 feet. (2rp)
AC: +2 natural armor bonus. (5 rp)
Weapon proficiency: A half-ogre is proficient with the greatsword and all simple weapons. (~2 rp, twice weapon familiarity)
Special Qualities: Ogre blood. (0 rp)
Languages: Half-ogres begin play speaking Common, and can also speak giant if they have an Intelligence of at least 10. Half-ogres with high Intelligence scores can choose from the following languages: Orc, Goblin, Troll (0 rp)

Racial Hit Dice: A half-ogre begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
Racial Skills: A half-ogre's humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 2 x (2 + Int modifier).
Racial Feats: A half-ogre's humanoid levels give it one feat.

There's a 3rd party half ogre which is a little easier to handle, conceptually. Despite only weighing in at 13 rp its really good stats make it a bit stronger than the standard races, but it's definitely weaker than the drow noble so you could stand to give it a few more traits to build up the concept. I would recommend rock catching, rock throwing, and towering build:

Rock Catching, 2 rp:
Members of this race can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a member of this race that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex saving throw to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium rock, and 25 for a Large rock (if the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount). The member of this race must be aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

Rock Throwing, 3 rp:
Members of this race are accomplished rock throwers and gain a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. A member of this race can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than its size. A “rock” is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5. A thrown rock has a range increment of 120 feet. The creature can hurl the rock up to five range increments. Damage from a thrown rock is 2d6 plus 1-1/2 times the throwing creature's Strength bonus.

Towering Build, 3rp?:
(from jotunfolk)
This race's prodigious size and build lets them function as if they were Large creatures. They gain a +1 bonus to CMB and CMD, can use weapons designed for Large creatures without penalty, and treat their carrying capacity as if they were Large creatures. Additionally, they are considered Large creatures when determining how size-based attacks (such as swallow whole) or spell effects affect them. Because of their build, they suffer a -1 penalty to their AC just like Large creatures.

Maybe also a +1 or +2 natural armour bonus (2-5 rp). That should do a pretty good job of representing a half-hill giant or stone giant.


actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Shadow Lodge

I've got to second the fact that race points are a bad measure - note the comments that the 13 rp half-ogre is too strong. Valuation of ability scores is particularly off. A human would give up all other racial features to get +2 Str and Con, while the half-ogre gets +4 Str, +2 Con in exchange for -2 Int and Cha (common dump stats for brutes, so this is better than the human's option) and still gets darkvision and +2 intimidate on top of that. Race point values also don't take synergy into account. Some abilities just are more useful together than others.

I also found an ogre racial breakdown sans racial HD, and a four-armed giant, the shobad, both of which are actually size large. The ogre is pretty similar to the half-ogre above aside from that.

Note that it can be hard to fit in some places if you're large so if your player does go for a race that is naturally large it could cause problems with dungeon design (or require the use of Reduce Person.


You could certainly put together a Giant of some sort with 41 RP.

Large size, Rock Catching/Throwing, Reach-- thirteen points covers "I'm a big dude who throws rocks". Leaves 28 points for the feel of the particular giant you want. The elemental giants might work better with GM handwave on the "Outsider with ties to an elemental plane" pre-req in a lot of abilities (Elemental Assault and Elemental Weapons), but beyond that it works easily enough.

41 points is a lot of room to play. Whether or not the result will be balanced is an entirely separate question, but it can be done.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.


Weirdo wrote:

Full giants are very powerful. You'll need a half-giant.

The weakest giant type humanoid is a half-ogre. They're worth 27 RP... if you don't count the two racial hit dice, which are hard to quantify.

** spoiler omitted **

There's a 3rd party half ogre which is a little easier to handle, conceptually. Despite only weighing in at 13 rp its really good stats make it a bit stronger than the standard races, but it's definitely weaker than the drow noble so you could stand to give it a few more traits to build up the concept. I would recommend rock catching, rock throwing, and towering build:

** spoiler omitted **...

I think this is a good basis to start from. I'm going to make a new race from scratch using 41 RP for him to play as.


Sear N. Rivers wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.

even without that, abilities within the standard menu aren't entirely balanced against other abilities from the standard menu. +2 to a single skill costs twice as much as a passive +2 to will save or is equal in price to a +1 natural armor bonus, when the skill bonus is nowhere near as good as both of them.


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Sear N. Rivers wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.

The Standard/Advanced/Monstrous divide is based solely on the number of points used. There's no such thing as a monstrous race made of ten points.

At the point that the player has 41 points to play with, he's making a Monstrous race (20+ points).

And racial points are wildly imbalanced simply because they weren't priced well.

For example:

Humanoid (Giant)
Advanced Attribute Modifiers (+2 Str/Dex/Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha)
Advanced Str
Advanced Con
Large Size
Reach
Rock Catching
Rock Throwing
Static Racial Feat: Power Attack
Greater Lucky
Fast
Ferocity
Darkvision 120'

Total RP: 39

Hits the feel of a giant-- it's big and tough to take down. And it comes in under the points of a Drow Noble. But its abilities will be relevant for much longer than the Noble's SLAs (which fall off hard) or SR (which is always helpful but is a two-edged blade).

At the same time, we're looking at:
+6 Str, +4 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha
+2 to all saves
Large size w/ Reach
Built-in Power Attack
Misc. other stuff

There's a lot of stuff here to play with. They'd make awesome martials or Clerics-- or, especially, Druids. And yet... totally legal. Heck, there's even a bit of room to improve.


This is what I came up with... Let me know what you all think!

Tribal Giants

Tribal giants are a strong, yet rational mountain dwellers who build grand fortresses deep in the Norther Wastes. They tend to live in the lands that border around vast peaking mountains, constructing massive wooden forts and lodges to protect the mountain peaks they deem sacred. These battle-ready warriors fiercely defend the mountain tops from other races they view as savages. Though similar to Hill giants in appearance and oversize, Tribal giants can almost always be identified by their superior posture, civilized clothing, and advanced steel forged weaponry. While a novice in their land may still mistake them for their savage Hill giant cousins, the average adventurer, seasoned traveler, or experienced merchant can always distinguish the difference.

Somewhat of an oddity, Tribal giants are a confusing mix of old Nordic code, Viking law, and Norse traditions. While they fight brutally in battle and will often times only fight to the death, they hold a strict moral guideline among their society to always be respectful to their elders, helpful to their neighbors, and protective of innocent travelers in their lands. While not exactly outwardly sociable, Tribal giants will often extend a hand and put themselves in harms way to ensure an innocent's safety while traveling through their lands.

Though they are not without their exceptions. Disgusted and revolted by the other tribal societies around them, Tribal giants feel these lesser inferior species give their own way of life a bad name. Tribal does not mean barbaric, nor does it mean save, not in their eyes. It's merely a way of life. A way of honor and dedication to live amongst nature, endure the elements, and stand one's own feet. Tribes are not bandit camps or cesspools of lawlessness. Because of this firm belief in their way of life and the bad name many other tribal societies give them by comparison, Tribal giants are often unfriendly to orcs, goblinoids, trolls, ogres, and any other form of life that regularly gives them a bad them.

Ironically, Tribal giants often seek the companionship of dwarves. Having a deep respect for the dwarven way of life and the legendary dwarven craftsmanship they've encountered, Tribal giants often associate with their other mountainous dwelling brethren. While usually not very receptive to giant-kind, dwarves will occasionally be seen in the company of Tribal giants, as they have similar goals in defending their mountain homes from the more savage species of the land. After all, the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a saying for a reason.

Tribal giants are lovers of battle and conflict. The soul is strengthened by overcome turmoil, or so goes their saying. Because of this philosophy, Tribal giants tend to always push themselves onward and will often take on the burden of other species. Whether its risking tooth and nail to save an innocent traveler, risking life and limb to explore uncharted territory in seek of a lost traveler, or even lining up as the forward assault for a war that is not their own, Tribal giants are always seen openly accepting the challenges before them. There's little one can do to stop them from jumping into the mix.

Physical Description

Tribal giants are a massive race, built like a bodybuilder among men. Proportionately standing to the same stature of humans, merely at a much larger scale, Tribal giants are most often described as tall and slender, yet extremely lean and muscular. They are strong like others of giant-kind, however retain a more civilized sense of posture. As they live in the far North away from the sun, Tribal giants are commonly fair or pale skinned individuals. Their bodies are naturally mark-less, though during their childhood, each Tribal giant is marked with decorative tattoos of his clan, tribe, and hold to show others where his allegiance lies. They often have red, blonde, or auburn colored hair and gray, blue, or green eyes. However, darker brown and black hair is sometimes seen on a Tribal giant.

Society: The close proximity to each other as well as the over-abundance of the less civilized tribal races around them has caused Tribal giants to always band together. It is unheard of for Tribal giants to quarrel with one another over anything, and unlike many other races Tribal giants will never harm another of their kind unless that giant is from outside of their hold. Even so, many Tribal giants won't harm others of their species even outside of their hold unless absolutely forced to or otherwise given no alternative. A Tribal giant's hold comes before all else, and they will do anything and everything to protect it. Anyone deemed to be a citizen of their hold or otherwise under its protection is strongly sheltered and protected from all dangers. Tribal giants settle their debts and will never break an alliance, once it is forged.

Relations: Tribal giants are protective of humans, respectful towards elves, and outwardly friendly towards their dwarven neighbors. While dwarves are not quite as friendly back, Tribal giants are usually tolerated by the dwarven settlements, as they cause no trouble to the dwarven societies and have proven to be powerful allies on more than one occasion. However, orcs, goblins, and the savage giants of the lands are not tolerated near Tribal giant society nor the societies of the allies that fall within a Tribal giant hold. While such creatures are allowed passage through their territories, Tribal giants as a whole do hold a prejudice to these other races.

Alignment and Religion: Tribal giants tend to be lawful in the dwellings of their homeland and their hold, however retain mostly a neutral perspective outside of these regions. Unsure of outside society, they often feel compelled to just leave others as they are unless a pre-existing friendship or bond of trust has already been established. Religiously, Tribal giants share both the human and dwarven pantheon. Many Tribal giants worship Tempus, Sylvanous, or Morodin. However religion is very open to their kind and so long as it isn't devil worship, Tribal giants allow others of their kind to worship freely as each individual pleases.

Adventurers: Though extremely rare at older ages, young Tribal giants will often seek the life of the adventurer and journey out onto the open road. Around the time of their adulthood, Tribal giants undergo a pilgrimage of their people known as "the great enlightening." During this time, a Tribal giant seeks to gain understand, inner focus, and physical strength by taking the conflicts of others into his own hands. Many call these Tribal giant pilgrims "hulking mercenaries" or "giant sell-swords," but to the Tribal giant it is a time of both physical and spiritual growth.

Male Names: Asger, Calder, Elufgar, Guldbar, Hackett, Horningarr, Ingvar, Kejled.

Female Names: Alviria, Eerika, Freja, Gyldah, Helinga, Ingra, Sassa, Signy.

Standard Racial Traits

  • Tribal giants gain +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Wis, and -2 Cha.

  • Type: Tribal giants are humanoids with the giant subtype.

  • Size: Tribal giants are Large creatures and thus take a -1 size penalty to their AC, a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to their CMB and CMD, and a -4 size penalty on Stealth checks. They take up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and have a reach of 10 feet.

  • Speed: Tribal giants have a base speed of 40 feet.

  • Languages: Tribal giants begin play speaking Dwarven and Giant. Tribal giants with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Elven, Orc, or Undercommon.

Defense Racial Traits

  • Natural Armor: Tribal giants have a +3 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.

  • Rock Catching: Tribal giants can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a tribal giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex saving throw to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium rock, and 25 for a Large rock (if the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount). The tribal giant must be aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

  • Stability: Tribal giants receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.

Offense Racial Traits

  • Rock Throwing: Tribal giants are accomplished rock throwers and have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. A tribal giant can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than her size. A "rock" is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5. A thrown rock has a range increment of 120 feet. The tribal giant can hurl the rock up to five range increments. Damage from a thrown rock is 2d6 plus 1-1/2 times the tribal giant's Strength bonus.

  • Hatred: Tribal giants receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoids of the goblinoid and orc subtypes.

  • Weapon Familiarity: Tribal giants are proficient with dire flails, greataxes, greatclubs, and greatswords.

Senses Racial Traits

  • Low-Light Vision: Tribal giants can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light.


This is what I gave them while building the race...

For their basic setup, I used the following...

Power Level: Monstrous (20+ RP)
Type: Humanoid - 0 RP
Subtype: Giant
Size: Large - 7 RP
Base Speed: Normal - 0 RP
Attributes: Advanced - 4 RP (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha)
Languages: Xenophobic - 0 RP (Dwarven & Giant |Base| - Common, Elven, Orc, Undercommon |Bonus|)

  • Advanced Constitution - 4 RP
  • Advanced Strength (x2) - 9 RP
  • Fast - 1 RP
  • Hatred - 1 RP
  • Improved Natural Armor (x2) - 3 RP
  • Low-Light Vision - 1 RP
  • Natural Armor - 2 RP
  • Reach - 1 RP
  • Rock Catching - 2 RP
  • Rock Throwing - 3 RP
  • Stability - 1 RP
  • Weapon Familiarity (x2) - 2 RP

RP Total = 41

Shadow Lodge

I think it's much stronger than the drow noble - and a good example of how the race builder breaks down.

Let's look at the stats.

The base advanced array for the giant (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha) is better than the advanced array for the drow noble (+4 Dex, –2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha). Most combat characters will benefit significantly from +2 to each physical stat. However, characters that make good use of even two of the mental stats are rare, so +2 to each mental stat is not that useful to any individual character. +4 Wis benefits a good subset of the characters that like +2 to physical stats - fighters and barbarians want the will save bonus, while monks and divine casters use it for their class features. For many of these characters, charisma is a dump stat, so the -2 Cha penalty is not a big deal. Conversely, the -2 Con hurts, especially for the gish characters that would get the most benefit from +4 Dex. So we're starting from a point where the giant's stats synergize much better than the drow noble.

Then you continue to improve the stats that are most relevant to the combat role - strength and constitution - at race point values that do not scale quickly compared to the increase in value of higher stats purchased using point buy, where raising a 14 to a 16 costs as much as raising a 10 to a 14. Note that even with the impaired scaling the +2 boost to strength you're getting from the Large trait would be worth 6 out of the 8 rp that Large+Reach costs (and it's pointless to look at large without reach because getting access to reach is the biggest benefit of being large). Now, there are some disadvantages to being large, but greater threat range including getting AoO on medium creatures who approach, avoiding the AoO of large creatures, plus being able to use a large greatsword for an extra 3.5 average damage... that's pretty sweet, and almost certainly worth more than +2 perception.

+3 Natural armour is in general very good value for 5 rp, and in this case it further supports the race's tendency towards melee combat, and makes up for the slightly lower AC of a large character (the biggest disadvantage of the size).

Fast should be worth more than 1 rp, especially given that this is a combat character. It's much better than a +1 attack bonus against two types of low-level enemies.

The other abilities are not themselves unfairly priced but together all support the giant's role as a rough, tough, damage machine.

Conversely, the drow noble's abilities are not particularly synergistic. SR is a double-edged sword, and poison use is likely to be duplicated by the classes that actually use poisons (eg alchemist). The big-ticket items are the SLAs. Of these, dancing lights amounts to a free cantrip, faerie fire and feather fall are circumstantial and don't get much benefit from being at-will, deeper darkness looks cool but is another double-edged sword since the drow noble can't see in supernatural darkness either. Levitate, divine favor, dispel magic, and suggestion are all useful but at higher levels aren't much of an advantage over spellcasting - which the drow noble probably will have because their stats are good for casters. Levitate in particular is liable to be replaced with Fly.

Compare this to the giant, whose fantastic stats, +3 natural armour, and large size will always be relevant.


Weirdo laid out the detailed version, so:

Thematically? Awesome. Mechanically? Really, really good.

Now, that may or may not be a problem-- what races are the rest of your party using? If they're all 41 RP options like this, you're golden. If one's a Dwarf... less so.


kestral287 wrote:

Weirdo laid out the detailed version, so:

Thematically? Awesome. Mechanically? Really, really good.

Now, that may or may not be a problem-- what races are the rest of your party using? If they're all 41 RP options like this, you're golden. If one's a Dwarf... less so.

Everyone was allowed to play any race with 41 RP or less, and was permitted to make their own or ask me to make one for them using a 41RP point buy. I didn't outlaw anything unless it went over 41 RP. I wanted the players to have freedom in the creation process of their characters. I'm prepared to scale the encounters they'll have.

And yes, I laid out the whole character format. I go all the way or not at all. Lol. The finished Pdf I made has a picture, and age, height, and weight tables too.


Weirdo wrote:

I think it's much stronger than the drow noble - and a good example of how the race builder breaks down.

Let's look at the stats.

The base advanced array for the giant (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha) is better than the advanced array for the drow noble (+4 Dex, –2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha). Most combat characters will benefit significantly from +2 to each physical stat. However, characters that make good use of even two of the mental stats are rare, so +2 to each mental stat is not that useful to any individual character. +4 Wis benefits a good subset of the characters that like +2 to physical stats - fighters and barbarians want the will save bonus, while monks and divine casters use it for their class features. For many of these characters, charisma is a dump stat, so the -2 Cha penalty is not a big deal. Conversely, the -2 Con hurts, especially for the gish characters that would get the most benefit from +4 Dex. So we're starting from a point where the giant's stats synergize much better than the drow noble.

Then you continue to improve the stats that are most relevant to the combat role - strength and constitution - at race point values that do not scale quickly compared to the increase in value of higher stats purchased using point buy, where raising a 14 to a 16 costs as much as raising a 10 to a 14. Note that even with the impaired scaling the +2 boost to strength you're getting from the Large trait would be worth 6 out of the 8 rp that Large+Reach costs (and it's pointless to look at large without reach because getting access to reach is the biggest benefit of being large). Now, there are some disadvantages to being large, but greater threat range including getting AoO on medium creatures who approach, avoiding the AoO of large creatures, plus being able to use a large greatsword for an extra 3.5 average damage... that's pretty sweet, and almost certainly worth more than +2 perception.

+3 Natural armour is in general very good value for 5 rp, and in this case it further supports...

A giant's strength though is traditionally found purely in his or her stats. In reality, not all creatures are balanced and equal. But they all come from the same genetic guidelines. A strand of double helix DNA. For this game, that same concept is given, but that DNA is 41 or less RP. Lol. I'm looking for the creativity my players show. Our group is profoundly based on role playing, not "roll" playing. If the racial concept is good, original, and makes sense; I approve it. Especially if the player's character concept and background go hand in hand with the race's make.


Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
Sear N. Rivers wrote:
Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:
actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.

even without that, abilities within the standard menu aren't entirely balanced against other abilities from the standard menu. +2 to a single skill costs twice as much as a passive +2 to will save or is equal in price to a +1 natural armor bonus, when the skill bonus is nowhere near as good as both of them.

I do see what you're saying here. If you used the RP purely for making something that is overpowered, you can easily make an unbalanced race. Most of my players wouldn't build a race to overcome all the others. We typically have a specific concept already in mind. Then webuild up the race to match said cconcept without giving the race something that the concept shouldn't have. But I do see where you are coming from. If someone wanted, they could have at-will mage armor, shield, shield of faith, barkskin, and Cat's grace. And all of that would only be around 14RP. Tack on greater defensive training and damage reduction with improved damage reduction for another 10 and you have one seriously OP race with just 24 RP being spent.

But this isn't Dr. Gerro's laboratory. Lol. My players make things they like for role-playing purposes. They know better. And they know I'd reject a crazy build like the one I mentioned earlier anyway. Haha.


Meh, you can do better than a few at-will spells too. That's going to fall off as you level, though it's certainly nice early on.

The problem with the mismatched races comes in when one guy's playing a Half-Orc Fighter, and then somebody else brings a Tribal Giant Fighter. Neither have to be optimized or about the "rollplay" (though really, Stormwind fallacy ahoy), but one of them is clearly going to be much better for the role. That can leave one player feeling useless very quickly.

Which is why I asked what races your players were using-- what they have available is immaterial, what they're actually using is what matters.


kestral287 wrote:

Meh, you can do better than a few at-will spells too. That's going to fall off as you level, though it's certainly nice early on.

The problem with the mismatched races comes in when one guy's playing a Half-Orc Fighter, and then somebody else brings a Tribal Giant Fighter. Neither have to be optimized or about the "rollplay" (though really, Stormwind fallacy ahoy), but one of them is clearly going to be much better for the role. That can leave one player feeling useless very quickly.

Which is why I asked what races your players were using-- what they have available is immaterial, what they're actually using is what matters.

One of them plans to be the Nordic Giant (I renamed it as I feel Nordic fits better for how I described them.) Another is playing as an awakened Gargoyle. Our third wants me to build an undead that he described as being like "the white walkers" from Game of Thrones. Only able to communicate with standard races. And our forth player is creating a subspecies of elf designed to eventually cross the Rogue class and "Thurge" 3PP class. I felt that this mix was fairly diverse and that since they're all playing what they wanted, it would be enjoyable for everyone.

I do see what you're saying though. Playing a human compared to any of these races would almost certainly be discouraging at times. But they're aware of the limits and my players almost always discuss how what each of them makes could be used with the rest of the party. So I'm not worried.

Shadow Lodge

If the other players are creating their own races and are reasonably good with the mechanics, you should be OK because they will take abilities that best complement their concepts (both thematically and mechanically). The gargoyle is solid for its RP value as well - probably a bit behind the giant, but you could have a lot of fun with four primary natural attacks and the fly speed is good enough to be useful even after the Fly spell is available.

Just note that while the nordic giant isn't "crazy" it's very well put together mechanically as well as thematically, which means that if someone makes a very thematic race that isn't mechanically strong they might be overshadowed.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:
A giant's strength though is traditionally found purely in his or her stats.

This is true, but those are really good stats and stats are really valuable in this game.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:
In reality, not all creatures are balanced and equal. But they all come from the same genetic guidelines. A strand of double helix DNA. For this game, that same concept is given, but that DNA is 41 or less RP. Lol.

That's... not how DNA works. And the race builder system, unlike DNA, is theoretically supposed to produce races that are of similar power to races with similar race point values.


Weirdo wrote:

If the other players are creating their own races and are reasonably good with the mechanics, you should be OK because they will take abilities that best complement their concepts (both thematically and mechanically). The gargoyle is solid for its RP value as well - probably a bit behind the giant, but you could have a lot of fun with four primary natural attacks and the fly speed is good enough to be useful even after the Fly spell is available.

Just note that while the nordic giant isn't "crazy" it's very well put together mechanically as well as thematically, which means that if someone makes a very thematic race that isn't mechanically strong they might be overshadowed.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:
A giant's strength though is traditionally found purely in his or her stats.

This is true, but those are really good stats and stats are really valuable in this game.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:
In reality, not all creatures are balanced and equal. But they all come from the same genetic guidelines. A strand of double helix DNA. For this game, that same concept is given, but that DNA is 41 or less RP. Lol.
That's... not how DNA works. And the race builder system, unlike DNA, is theoretically supposed to produce races that are of similar power to races with similar race point values.

DNA is always found in the same structure, the double helix strand. It's just a matter of how the chromosomes and ameno acids of the DNA falls. I see what you're saying though. While a house fly's DNA is structured like a human in shape, it's contents are quite obviously vastly different. So that could fit what you're arguing. The "thematic" component is there and is good. Flies are perfectly designed for their intended purpose of garbage removal. But the "mechanic" component falls short, because obviously a human is far more capable in the world. That's what you're saying, or at least in the general ball park, right?

Also, I was wondering if you, or any of the others who had posted so far, would be willing to look at the races created by the players and I and would cretique them? I can make a new thread for that too, if you think that would be the right way to go about it.

- S.N. Rivers

Shadow Lodge

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I'd be happy to look at the other races - I love race building and you've got me interested in making some more powerful custom races myself!

Sear N. Rivers wrote:
DNA is always found in the same structure, the double helix strand. It's just a matter of how the chromosomes and ameno acids of the DNA falls. I see what you're saying though. While a house fly's DNA is structured like a human in shape, it's contents are quite obviously vastly different. So that could fit what you're arguing. The "thematic" component is there and is good. Flies are perfectly designed for their intended purpose of garbage removal. But the "mechanic" component falls short, because obviously a human is far more capable in the world. That's what you're saying, or at least in the general ball park, right?

Not really.

DNA isn't a universal guideline, it's a universal biological language.

DNA is the format in which the genetic information is carried, both in terms of chemical structure and in how the structure of DNA is translated into the characteristics of the creature. A fruit fly gene would be "readable" if inserted into any other living thing - that's how GMOs work, and how we can produce human insulin from bacteria. (It's super-cool!)

The race builder, and particularly the concept of race points, isn't really about the format in which you convey information about a race's abilities, or about how you translate thematic abilities into game mechanics. It's about assigning a value to each of those abilities to let you know how much they're worth relative to each other. It's resource management and budgeting and I don't think there's anything about DNA that is a good analogy (though creatures do sort of budget how they express certain genes depending on need).

DNA acts more like a race's underlying game system. A gene from a human can be understood by a bacteria because they're using the same "system." A racial trait designed for a dwarf or gnome would make sense within the rules if given to an elf. But a race or racial ability intended for Vampire: The Masquerade would be pretty incomprehensible if introduced into the PF rules set because the format and meaning of their abilities is completely different.

Or if we're talking computer files, DNA is like saying "the file must be .jgp" and the race builder is like saying "the file must be no more than 1 MB in size."


That is a much better analogy! Thanks! It's dramatically easier to understand how things can be imbalanced between races. Because a file can be 41MB in size, but still be far less quality than even another of 25MB.

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