what are the rules for Wish in PFS play (at higher levels clearly)

[Rycaut]

I have run a fair amount of Tier 7-11 scenarios but in a few weeks I may be running a high level module for some PFS players and in it there is a reasonably likely chance that my question will become relevant.

details here:

In Tomb of the Iron Medusa there is a Luck Blade with a single wish and there is a monster that while unlikely could potentially mean further wishes for the right party (an effreet if the party somehow managed charm instead of killing - at high levels you have to assume nearly anything may happen)

I know that in general permanent effects are not usually allowed in PFS - but what rules / restrictions (if any) are there if PFS players gain access to a wish in the course of a game?

And on a not unrelated note, what are the rules for items in a game which have a permanent effect (books/tomes for example) - if used during the module does a player need to purchase them afterwards to keep the bonus?

[Tsriel]

Hmm, I remember this thread being relevant as it too also has the potential of a wish spell being used. Mainly against the players though.

Generally speaking, it would be safest to stick to the guidelines and examples outlined in the spell description itself. I wouldn't allow anything outside of that as far as PFS is concerned. Eventhough we're talking about Seeker level play, it would likely cause complications if a character somehow had an item/ability/benefit that would go above and beyond what the spell descriptor normally says. Best to avoid headaches for their future GMs later.

[Sammy T]

There is no clear player/GM consensus about what happens with Wish and inherent bonuses. Some say it carries forward while others cite the permanent spell rules and extrapolate from there. As for manuals/tomes, which exist in the same realm of inherent bonuses, I believe everyone is in agreement that you would need to purchase the item.

Buying a tome or manual is actually cheaper than comparable number of Wish scrolls. Having the party Wizard cast Wish is slightly cheaper than the scroll. Summoning a Wish-granting creature (or capturing one) is even cheaper.

With the amount of higher level AP sanctioning, I hope Mike Brock and John Compton would offer some guidance or a ruling.

I would honestly be fine with the following:
A) PC casters may use Wish or Wish scrolls for granting inherent bonuses per the spell description. Wish(es) may only be cast during a game session.
B) PC-cast Wish inherent bonuses granted carry over from scenario to scenario.
C) Wish-granted inherent bonuses gained from Summoned/Gated creatures or NPC casters only last the duration of the scenario.

PC Wishes require a significant investment of wealth-by-level. NPC Wishes do not.

[Netopalis]

If you're playing at a level where Wish is a relevant force, I feel that the RAW strictures regarding the interpretation of spells and spell effects are greatly lessened. The RAW strictures serve to protect players from bad or vindictive GMs. At that level, practically anything a GM does to a character is but a speed bump. Death? Pshaw. You'll make 10x the cost of the death in the module. Got turned into an undead and need a Resurrection? No problem. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

[Rycaut]

My worry was more what can/can't the players do with a Wish within a module (I hadn't thought about what happens if their wish would have permanent effects but that is also an issue)

My personal feeling as DM would be to say a Wish can duplicate any PFS legal spell of the levels mentioned (Level 8 sorcerer/wizard spell, level 7 other spell casters) or do the other effects as discussed - though if the inherent bonus there is the question of if it persists after the module.

[LazarX]

It's basically the rules as per the game along with the PFS riders of spell effects not carrying over from one session to the next. So no wishs for permanent spells. You also obviously can't use Wish to emulate spells that are banned according to the Campaign Guidelines and Additional Resources.

The rules against crafting would also imply that you can't use Wish to make magic items.

[Duiker]

If you are playing PFS at level 17 and the best thing you can think of doing with wish in one of the last couple of times you'll ever get to play this character is bumping attribute scores, then I'd let you do it out of pity for your dead imagination.

[Sammy T]

Duiker wrote:

If you are playing PFS at level 17 and the best thing you can think of doing with wish in one of the last couple of times you'll ever get to play this character is bumping attribute scores, then I'd let you do it out of pity for your dead imagination.

And what would you Wish for?

[Rycaut]

Again this isn't at level 17 play. I'm not worried about players casting wish as a spell but a module where in the course of the adventure there is a real possibility that multiple wishes may be available to the PC's. In one case via an item which isn't on the chronicle sheet but which could easily come into play during the module (and it is a high tier module so may take multiple play sessions to resolve - there could easily be plenty of time for the PC's to want to use items found during the adventure.

[Sammy T]

Well, the answer to your question/concern is basically the same as the Wish issue at higher levels...which has not been addressed.

[Rycaut]

And just today I noticed that my level 10 dragon disciple/paladin/bars has access to a scroll of limited wish on a chronicle sheet. While not as abusive as wish it sure seems in keeping with his overall build if I buy one to have for emergencies. (His UMD is quite good and his casting stat CHA is very very high).

[Andrew Christian]

Wish doesn't need to be specifically addressed. Spell effects do not carry over from scenario to scenario.

[Hulking Hurler]

Does that include instantaneous duration wishes, such as the stat increase? I believe that after an instantaneous spell takes place it is no longer a spell effect.

[LazarX]

Hulking Hurler wrote:

Does that include instantaneous duration wishes, such as the stat increase? I believe that after an instantaneous spell takes place it is no longer a spell effect.

yes it does. Limited Wish won't get you that anyway.

[Andrew Christian]

Yes. I'll see if I can pull up the section in the guide that deals with this.

Edit:

Guide to Organized Play, v6.0, page 24 wrote:

The following spells found in the Core Rulebook are not

legal for play and may never be used, found, purchased,
or learned in any form by PCs playing Pathfinder Society
Scenarios: awaken, permanency, and reincarnate.
All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with
the following exceptions:
• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous
duration that heal damage, repair damage, or remove
harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the
scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during
a scenario remain until healed and carry over from
scenario to scenario (except in specific instances as
noted on Page 22).
• A character may have one each of the following spells that
carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame,
masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

[BigNorseWolf]

Wish is for getting revenge on those venture captains sending you to their deaths...

[Rycaut]

My question isn't just about what (if anything) persists from scenario to scenario (above commenters have covered that - though since the inherent bonus from a single Wish is actually a bit worse than other sources of inherent bonuses - i.e. a tome etc which are actually legal at higher levels - at least there are cases of them available on Chronicle sheets) - since inherent bonuses don't stack the single Wish isn't all that overpowered (if somehow you could get a number of wishes in short succession you can stack them)

It is mostly about what can (and can't) you do with a wish during a PFS scenario or module. Wishes have a lot of flexibility and are very subject to interpretation - as a GM if a PC were casting a Wish (and paying the GP for the casting cost) I would tend to err on the side of whatever is best for the story (in a non-PFS game) but in a PFS game there is generally a bit less room for such table variation. I would definitely allow the specific items listed in the spell (though some are harder to gauge if a Wish is granted from an item or NPC/Monster - such as should any school be considered an opposition school in those cases?) but the stuff about "effects which are greater should be interpreted strictly" is harder to resolve in a PFS context.

(and as a player if I do buy that Limited Wish scroll which is available to one of my characters I'd like to know what is/is not allowed if that is used - and need to calculate what the UMD check would be...)

[Netopalis]

In Baron Edwin LeBlanc's last scenario, Race for the Runecarved Key at level 19, we finished the plot extremely early for obvious reasons. As such, we were looking for something to for the remaining 3 hours of the slot. As a cleric of Shelyn, Edwin collects artwork, but there was a gaping hole in his collection - the missing edition of the Pathfinder Chronicles. He cast miracle for it. The GM had Shelyn herself come down and say that if I went adventuring, I would find clues towards it. For the next 3 hours, the GM improvised a complicated storyline which eventually led to the obtaining of a copy of that Chronicle...but with some rather severe caveats. It remains my favorite PFS experience as a player.

While Miracle is not the same as Wish, they are both open-ended spells. When players gain access to those spells, I feel that you are really robbing them of some amazing opportunities when you put the spells in a tiny little box. Players have salivated over the opportunity to cast Wish for probably a good year in real time - why limit it to emulating the spell effects? Listen to what they want and figure out how to reasonably fulfill it. You don't have to write an adventure on the fly, but flex that creative muscle.

[Rycaut]

Sure - I'll do what I can - but note I'm more worried about levels before the players can expect/anticipate the fun of casting spells like Wish or Miracle themselves - there are a handful of scenarios/modules which include some potential ways in the course of those modules for lower level (relative to casting these spells usually - we're talking post-level 12 modules for Wish in the case I'm aware of and a high tier 10-11 chronicle sheet for a scroll of Limited Wish

[UndeadMitch]

I would just use your common sense, we don't need to codify everything exactly. While doing so might reduce table variation, it will also reduce cool stories like the poster above had.

[kinevon]

Andrew Christian wrote:

Wish doesn't need to be specifically addressed. Spell effects do not carry over from scenario to scenario.

Note, there is a caveat on this, since items created by spells are explicitly allowed to remain.

If a magic item creates something like an additional item or currency, can I keep it?
Answer: Yes

I would suspect a Wish could be used to create a fairly powerful, but not Wish-granting, item.

Or, even, simulate casting a Heightened Continual Flame spell on something, at Spell Level 7 or 8, caster level, fairly high. This, specifically, probably won't break anything, but I am sure there are other uses that can either break the module, or do other weird things that might persist, somehow.

[LazarX]

kinevon wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Wish doesn't need to be specifically addressed. Spell effects do not carry over from scenario to scenario.

Note, there is a caveat on this, since items created by spells are explicitly allowed to remain.

If a magic item creates something like an additional item or currency, can I keep it?
Answer: Yes

I would suspect a Wish could be used to create a fairly powerful, but not Wish-granting, item.

Or, even, simulate casting a Heightened Continual Flame spell on something, at Spell Level 7 or 8, caster level, fairly high. This, specifically, probably won't break anything, but I am sure there are other uses that can either break the module, or do other weird things that might persist, somehow.

You're misrepresenting the FAQ answer. it refers to items such ladders and other items created by a robe of useful items. There are no mentions of spells. Spells on the other hand have the PFS rule that spell effects terminate at the end of a session.

[Andrew Christian]

kinevon wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

Wish doesn't need to be specifically addressed. Spell effects do not carry over from scenario to scenario.

Note, there is a caveat on this, since items created by spells are explicitly allowed to remain.

If a magic item creates something like an additional item or currency, can I keep it?
Answer: Yes

I would suspect a Wish could be used to create a fairly powerful, but not Wish-granting, item.

Or, even, simulate casting a Heightened Continual Flame spell on something, at Spell Level 7 or 8, caster level, fairly high. This, specifically, probably won't break anything, but I am sure there are other uses that can either break the module, or do other weird things that might persist, somehow.

This was in regards to a spell like Fabricate, which typically creates mundane items, and items of little expense.

I believe further on in the thread you'll find that common sense is invoked, and as long as it doesn't get ridiculous. That if abused, it certainly would not be allowed.

Creating any amount of treasure that essentially breaks the WBL would not persist from scenario to scenario. And no amount of wrangling by a player with FAQ's or message board posts is going to change that.

[thistledown]

There is a season 6 scenario that potentially grants you a wish. It severely nerfs it for organized play, but has guidelines you could maybe use in other scenarios.

[Rycaut]

ah - that is worth looking into - I haven't play (or run) most of Season 6 yet so hadn't encountered that - worth looking into as it might help with the module I'm going to be running soon (I'm guessing it is a high tier scenario or a special?)

[thistledown]

Rycaut wrote:

ah - that is worth looking into - I haven't play (or run) most of Season 6 yet so hadn't encountered that - worth looking into as it might help with the module I'm going to be running soon (I'm guessing it is a high tier scenario or a special?)

Actually, it's a regular 5-9 scenario, but the wish is difficult to get.