When making a grapple check to "damage your opponent," do you threaten a critical when you roll a natural 20 (or 19-20 if you have Improved Critical with your unarmed attack) as you would on a regular attack roll? The text on page 156 under Grapple Checks says that a grapple check is like a melee attack roll, which could indicate either yes or no to my question.
In the normal course of humanoids grappling each other, it probably doesn't make a big difference whether you can do 1d3 or 2d3 points of nonlethal damage, but it matters more for a monk who can do lethal damage and substantially more of it, especially as she reaches higher levels. It might matter even more for a gargantuan advanced dire shark using Improved Grab to hold onto a character and rolls a grapple check round after round to inflict damage on the grabbed creature--especially if the 54-hit-die advanced dire shark has Devastating Critical.
It seems like the dire shark should pose just as much a threat to you by holding you in its jaws and biting you and it did from biting you in the first place--perhaps even more, as your struggles to free yourself would tend to rip and tear your flesh even more than the shark does completely on its own. Allowing it to threaten a critical on its grapple check to inflict damage seems like the way to replicate that danger. What do you think? Thanks. :)
P.S. Is there any way to set my account so that I get an email when someone posts to my thread? Thanks! :)
In the game I'm currently playing the Goliath monk rolled a natural 20 on a grapple check, followed by another natural 20 on the confirmation roll.
The DM ruled that he went Kratos on the poor bastard.
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I would say no. Grapple checks are like melee attack rolls, in that you roll d20 and add Str and BAB to the number to get a result. But they are not IDENTICAL to melee attack rolls, that is why they have different names and grapple checks are special combat actions.
Critical hits require an attack roll (PHB p.140) and since a grapple check is a check and not an attack roll, it does not count.
So, you can roll a natural 20 on a grapple check (even to deal damage) which indicates an automatic success (unless the opposed roll is also 20). But you cannot deal critical hit damage.
You can critical with unarmed strike.
I would say no. Grapple checks are like melee attack rolls, in that you roll d20 and add Str and BAB to the number to get a result. But they are not IDENTICAL to melee attack rolls, that is why they have different names and grapple checks are special combat actions.
Critical hits require an attack roll (PHB p.140) and since a grapple check is a check and not an attack roll, it does not count.
So, you can roll a natural 20 on a grapple check (even to deal damage) which indicates an automatic success (unless the opposed roll is also 20). But you cannot deal critical hit damage.
You can critical with unarmed strike.
Thanks Vulcan and Jal.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.
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I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.
You are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
You are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.
That always gets my players mad: They roll a 20 while grappling some uber-massive monster; he rolls somewhere between a 5-10, and still wins. I just smile. >:D
But as odd as it may seem, I do believe Jal Dorak has the right of it. I suppose one way to match the fluff to the crunch is to first imagine that a critical represents hitting a vital area such as an artery, major organ, etc. If the shark missed those when he first bit (and established a grapple), he wouldn't likely have another chance to puncture them as long as he maintained said bit. He would "just" rip and tear the flesh in the less-vital areas of the body his teeth sank into. It may be a tenuous rationalization, but hopefully it makes the rules seem less abstract and "wonky."
You are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.
Thanks Jal. I wrote a reply but it seems to have vanished into the ether. :(
Let's see. First I asked if that variant appears in a published book some where, or if your DM created it. Then I mentioned that I used two variant rules from the Epic Level Handbook. I allow a natural 20 on an attack or save to miss. If someone rolls a natural 20, he gets to roll again and add the second result to the first. I also use an expanded death's door, where a creature doesn't die until its hit points fall to a negative equal to its hit dice. So my party's 24th-level wizard wouldn't die until he reaches -24. That's about all I can recall of what I wrote.
That always gets my players mad: They roll a 20 while grappling some uber-massive monster; he rolls somewhere between a 5-10, and still wins. I just smile. >:DYou are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.
Yes, that happened with the party's half-celestial barbarian/cleric/fighter/ranger/lightning warrior. He has a massive strength, more so when raging, and still couldn't for the life of him break from of its jaws. The party pounded it pretty well when it came near the surface (after it grabbed one party member right off the deck, swallowed him, then bit in half, with Devastating Critical, one of the party members who jumped in to attack it) so it dived for the depths, taking the half-celestial with it. The party's barbarian/cleric/thunder priest sent an elemental water monolith after it, and the wizard sent an elder water elemental against it, and they managed to pound it into unconsciousness before it lost them in the dark. Only then could he free himself, and he was hopping (or perhaps flapping) mad! :D
But as odd as it may seem, I do believe Jal Dorak has the right of it. I suppose one way to match the fluff to the crunch is to first imagine that a critical represents hitting a vital area such as an artery, major organ, etc. If the shark missed those when he first bit (and established a grapple), he wouldn't likely have another chance to puncture them as long as he maintained said bit. He would "just" rip and tear the flesh in the less-vital areas of the body his teeth sank into. It may be a tenuous rationalization, but hopefully it makes the rules seem less abstract and "wonky."It doesn't completely justify it, but your Herculean effort to justify it does make me feel better about it. :)
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You are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.Thanks Jal. I wrote a reply but it seems to have vanished into the ether. :(
Let's see. First I asked if that variant appears in a published book some where, or if your DM created it. Then I mentioned that I used two variant rules from the Epic Level Handbook. I allow a natural 20 on an attack or save to miss. If someone rolls a natural 20, he gets to roll again and add the second result to the first. I also use an expanded death's door, where a creature doesn't die until its hit points fall to a negative equal to its hit dice. So my party's 24th-level wizard wouldn't die until he reaches -24. That's about all I can recall of what I wrote.
Hmm. I am drawing a blank. I could have sworn it appeared somewhere in the published rules, but it may be possible we took the "Critical Success Variant" from the DMG p.32 and altered it, allowing a natural 20 on a check to simply be an automatic success unless the DC was higher than 20. For opposed checks it gives you a 10% chance to break out of impossible situations (like grappling) since you can succeed on a 20 from you or a 1 from the monster.
Hmm. I am drawing a blank. I could have sworn it appeared somewhere in the published rules, but it may be possible we took the "Critical Success Variant" from the DMG p.32 and altered it, allowing a natural 20 on a check to simply be an automatic success unless the DC was higher than 20. For opposed checks it gives you a 10% chance to break out of impossible situations (like grappling) since you can succeed on a 20 from you or a 1 from the monster.You are correct. My group uses the "auto-success on checks" variant, but in core rules you can only automatically succeed on attack rolls, and since grapple checks aren't attack rolls, you cannot auto-succeed at all.
I think even on the roll of a natural 20 that the roller doesn't automatically win an opposed grapple check; the other person might still have a higher total score.Thanks Jal. I wrote a reply but it seems to have vanished into the ether. :(
Let's see. First I asked if that variant appears in a published book some where, or if your DM created it. Then I mentioned that I used two variant rules from the Epic Level Handbook. I allow a natural 20 on an attack or save to miss. If someone rolls a natural 20, he gets to roll again and add the second result to the first. I also use an expanded death's door, where a creature doesn't die until its hit points fall to a negative equal to its hit dice. So my party's 24th-level wizard wouldn't die until he reaches -24. That's about all I can recall of what I wrote.
Oh, do you mean the perfect success under "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" on p. 32? For the perfect success it says that you have to win the opposed check by 20 or more, not roll a natural 20. You could roll a natural 20 and still lose the opposed check, much less not win by 20. :) Thanks for pointing it out, as the "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" offer a good variation.
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Oh, do you mean the perfect success under "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" on p. 32? For the perfect success it says that you have to win the opposed check by 20 or more, not roll a natural 20. You could roll a natural 20 and still lose the opposed check, much less not win by 20. :) Thanks for pointing it out, as the "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" offer a good variation.
I was indeed referring to that variant. I realized how different it was from our houserule, which is why I mentioned we may have just been inspired by it to modify the existing rules to our style of play - everyone can succeed sometimes, and even the most highly trained rogue can fail a lockpick, so we figure auto-success/fail on checks works just as well as attacks.
I was indeed referring to that variant. I realized how different it was from our houserule, which is why I mentioned we may have just been inspired by it to modify the existing rules to our style of play - everyone can succeed sometimes, and even the most highly trained rogue can fail a lockpick, so we figure auto-success/fail on checks works just as well as attacks.
Oh, do you mean the perfect success under "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" on p. 32? For the perfect success it says that you have to win the opposed check by 20 or more, not roll a natural 20. You could roll a natural 20 and still lose the opposed check, much less not win by 20. :) Thanks for pointing it out, as the "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" offer a good variation.
I know, there is a certain appeal in a heroic game to being able to succeed once in a while regardless. In the case of the half-celestial and the shark, however, the half-celestial needed to beat the shark by 10 on his first iterative attack in order to break free, 15 on the second, 20 on the third, and 25 on the fourth. That means that on the third he could win only if he rolled a natural 20 and then rolled on his second d20 whatever the shark rolled on its d20. On the fourth iterative attack the half-celestial had to the same except roll 5 higher on his second d20 than the shark rolled on its d20. So even without automatically succeeding on natural 20, he still had a decent shot to get out, especially on his first iterative attack. He just never managed to roll well on that first iterative attack. :(
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I know, there is a certain appeal in a heroic game to being able to succeed once in a while regardless. In the case of the half-celestial and the shark, however, the half-celestial needed to beat the shark by 10 on his first iterative attack in order to break free, 15 on the second, 20 on the third, and 25 on the fourth. That means that on the third he could win only if he rolled a natural 20 and then rolled on his second d20 whatever the shark rolled on its d20. On the fourth iterative attack the half-celestial had to the same except roll 5 higher on his second d20 than the shark rolled on its d20. So even without automatically succeeding on natural 20, he still had a decent shot to get out, especially on his first iterative attack. He just never managed to roll well on that first iterative attack. :(I was indeed referring to that variant. I realized how different it was from our houserule, which is why I mentioned we may have just been inspired by it to modify the existing rules to our style of play - everyone can succeed sometimes, and even the most highly trained rogue can fail a lockpick, so we figure auto-success/fail on checks works just as well as attacks.
Oh, do you mean the perfect success under "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" on p. 32? For the perfect success it says that you have to win the opposed check by 20 or more, not roll a natural 20. You could roll a natural 20 and still lose the opposed check, much less not win by 20. :) Thanks for pointing it out, as the "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" offer a good variation.
I had a similar experience with a player's orc barbarian (raging) getting grappled multiple times by a Kraken.
Fortunately, the party cleric was a ghost at the time and was able to cripple the Kraken using ability drain.
I know, there is a certain appeal in a heroic game to being able to succeed once in a while regardless. In the case of the half-celestial and the shark, however, the half-celestial needed to beat the shark by 10 on his first iterative attack in order to break free, 15 on the second, 20 on the third, and 25 on the fourth. That means that on the third he could win only if he rolled a natural 20 and then rolled on his second d20 whatever the shark rolled on its d20. On the fourth iterative attack the half-celestial had to the same except roll 5 higher on his second d20 than the shark rolled on its d20. So even without automatically succeeding on natural 20, he still had a decent shot to get out, especially on his first iterative attack. He just never managed to roll well on that first iterative attack. :(I was indeed referring to that variant. I realized how different it was from our houserule, which is why I mentioned we may have just been inspired by it to modify the existing rules to our style of play - everyone can succeed sometimes, and even the most highly trained rogue can fail a lockpick, so we figure auto-success/fail on checks works just as well as attacks.
Oh, do you mean the perfect success under "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" on p. 32? For the perfect success it says that you have to win the opposed check by 20 or more, not roll a natural 20. You could roll a natural 20 and still lose the opposed check, much less not win by 20. :) Thanks for pointing it out, as the "DEGREES OF SUCCESS" offer a good variation.I had a similar experience with a player's orc barbarian (raging) getting grappled multiple times by a Kraken.
Fortunately, the party cleric was a ghost at the time and was able to cripple the Kraken using ability drain.
Nice! :-)