Did any of your PCs become vampires after running "Ashes at Dawn"? If so, how did you handle it in the next module? One of my PCs (Dhampir Magus) made the conscious decision to become one at the end of the module. I've gone over the dangers that will present themselves to the PC including the possibility of being controlled, traveling only at night, the logistics of hauling a coffin around, and the need to constantly feed, but for story purposes, we both feel like this decision serves his character's storyline the best. I should note that the Oracle of Life also in our group is a devout worshiper of Pharasma, while our two-weapon fighter is considering multi-classing into Paladin next level. My group is extremely mature and am confident that they can handle the role-play challenge of such a change, but I'm worried about how some of the fights will play out. Is he going to be empowered by the same effects that empower the denizens of Renchurch? What about the Mortuary Storm surrounding Gallowspire? Can he just fly through it.
Secondly, my PCs are considering getting to Renchurch by teleporting to Ravengro, then riding horses south through the mountains to get to Renchurch, basically skipping the first third of the module. Has anyone else experienced any sort of alternative trek other than what's presented in the module? It seems like the only path to Renchurch would be to go through Adorak, which story-wise could jumble up everything. They've done their research on the region and know about the Witchgates, and I have yet to come up with a reason as to why they should travel the way that everyone expects them to.
It does sound fun:-)
i would say yes on being empowered, no on flying through the storm, as far as the route, i'd let them, with a vampire in the group a little less experience might be what the doctor ordered:-)
Depending on how much your players know about the region, you could simply move the encounters to be in their path. The knights of Ozen are especially easy to put anywhere. But none of the travel encounters seem particularly important to the story, so missing them isn't the end of the world. At worst they miss some flavor, treasure, and hints Marrowgarth.
I suppose that I better come up with some sort of path that winds through the Hungry Mountains from Ravengro to Renchurhc but bypasses Adorak. Even though it seems to make the most geographic sense as far as traveling goes, I do not want my PCs going near Gallowspire before they've gone to Renchurch. It might be interesting to switch the two parts, but it seems kind of anti-climatic to defeat a vessel of Tar-Baphon then go on a rescue mission afterwards, not to mention the difficulty in switching the CRS between parts.
There seems like a lot of combat in the module; did anyone who's ran it find it overwhelming or did it work for you group? I ask because I want to maintain the horror aspect of the module, even at high level. Some of the fights don't look that impressive on paper, so I am wondering if there are any fights that you omitted or wish that you had (or changed)? I've seen some of Tybid's changes and may use some of them, but would love other takes.
I just finished running CC and actually had some similar issues. I also had a dhampir player who decided that becoming a vampire would be in line with his development, but we decided (mostly for balance reasons and timeline) that it'd be easier if that was followed up after the events in book 6. We ended up RP-ing his striking the deal with the Vampire Court (which led to the vamps helping out some in book 6), but left everything else for later.
My group also skipped nearly everything on the way to Renchurch, as they used Windwalk to travel there super-fast. Honestly, I was OK with them skipping some of the fights on the way (because, as you pointed out, I felt book 6 was already combat heavy). However, I did keep some of them and explained it as, though the party knew the general area of Renchurch, it had active spells which prevented enemies from finding it easily. I figured this also helped explain why the Shining Crusade didn't burn the place down. Anyway, with the extra time they spent looking, I had them find the paladins and the burned out Varisian caravan, which were the two parts I really wanted to delve into (one of my party was a paladin trained in Lastwall, and we had some cool RP with his fellows).
And finally, I wholeheartedly agree that Book 6 has a lot of fights, not all of which are impressive, and can get awfully grindy. We were actually in a bit of a rush to finish (one of the guys was getting married, and we obviously wanted to try to squeeze the ending in before honeymoon, move, etc), and I ended up turning some of the thematically-cool-but-unchallenging-mechanically fights into "cinematics." I thought this worked pretty well, and it went over well with the group. I know that I handled the ghostly necromanacers, several of the shade fights, and at least of the acolyte groups like this, as well as most of the city encounters when they got to Gallowspire. Even with these changes, Renchurch and the Spire were pretty darn deadly - particularly since I changed Lucimar to an arcanist. I can't emphasize enough how much I loved this change, because it let him spam more of his best spells without giving the flavor of a studious caster.
Anyway, hope this helps!
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I just finished running CC and actually had some similar issues. I also had a dhampir player who decided that becoming a vampire would be in line with his development, but we decided (mostly for balance reasons and timeline) that it'd be easier if that was followed up after the events in book 6. We ended up RP-ing his striking the deal with the Vampire Court (which led to the vamps helping out some in book 6), but left everything else for later.
My group also skipped nearly everything on the way to Renchurch, as they used Windwalk to travel there super-fast. Honestly, I was OK with them skipping some of the fights on the way (because, as you pointed out, I felt book 6 was already combat heavy). However, I did keep some of them and explained it as, though the party knew the general area of Renchurch, it had active spells which prevented enemies from finding it easily. I figured this also helped explain why the Shining Crusade didn't burn the place down. Anyway, with the extra time they spent looking, I had them find the paladins and the burned out Varisian caravan, which were the two parts I really wanted to delve into (one of my party was a paladin trained in Lastwall, and we had some cool RP with his fellows).
And finally, I wholeheartedly agree that Book 6 has a lot of fights, not all of which are impressive, and can get awfully grindy. We were actually in a bit of a rush to finish (one of the guys was getting married, and we obviously wanted to try to squeeze the ending in before honeymoon, move, etc), and I ended up turning some of the thematically-cool-but-unchallenging-mechanically fights into "cinematics." I thought this worked pretty well, and it went over well with the group. I know that I handled the ghostly necromanacers, several of the shade fights, and at least of the acolyte groups like this, as well as most of the city encounters when they got to Gallowspire. Even with these changes, Renchurch and the Spire were pretty darn deadly - particularly since I changed Lucimar to an...
My party did the wind walk thing as well. I had the weather of Virlych respond, although I put in enough workarounds that the idea wasn't completely moot. They're at Renchurch now, and I'm combining encounters into big fights.
As for the original poster's question, I almost had a vampire. The group saved her in time. :(
Cpt. Yesterday has the right of it, I think; note that some of Renchurch's denizens may be able to control undead.
As for encounters, you could just say that the encounters in the book were on the northern path instead. Not everyone is comfortable with that, but it doesn't seem like it'll be that big a deal. :)
When i ran Racing to Ruin for Serpent's Skull, they chose a completely different way, i had to change some of the beginning and omitted a couple encounters i didn't like otherwise i was able to run the encounters unchanged, they had no idea even they weren't supposed to be able pick the way.
i agree keeping them away from Gallowspire early on is essential, maybe drive home somehow that Lucinean is in some serious s##@ and he doesn't have time for them to poke around Gallowspire first:-)
There seems like a lot of combat in the module; did anyone who's ran it find it overwhelming or did it work for you group? I ask because I want to maintain the horror aspect of the module, even at high level. Some of the fights don't look that impressive on paper, so I am wondering if there are any fights that you omitted or wish that you had (or changed)? I've seen some of Tybid's changes and may use some of them, but would love other takes.
For the sake of your players and all that is holy, remove some of those fights. I was just in a group that finished this book, and my GM had decided that we were too powerful for our own good. So not only did we have to fight all that junk, lots of things had their HP buffed to ridiculous levels and there were extra things to fight on top of that. I'm not sure what it would have been like without him tinkering with it (I've never read the actual book), but for us that part of the adventure took us at least 3 months, playing about 4 hours per week. It was a grind-fest and the ending was not that satisfying.
Thanks for replies all. I think everyone's advice here is spot on, and when I have time I'm going to write up an alternative path from Ravengro. I may swap out some of the enemies or expand some of the encounters, so I will let everyone know what happens with it. I will definitely be consolidating some of these battles so it isn't just fight after fight.
Fights that look interesting (on paper):
-Hagmouth
-Knights of Ozem (already foreshadowed them in book 3)
-Banshee
-Hungry Earth Haunt
-Tyrant's Whisper Haunts
-Svoac and the Evil Trees
-Asphyxiating Taxidermy Haunt
-Lazurite Focus and Renchurch Novices
-Lucimar
-Nalthezzar (alchemist Lich)
-Dead Water Haunt
-Impaled Haunt of St. Vesbias (already foreshadowed)
-Rejuvenating Lich and Cenobites
-Revenants
-Totenmaskes
-Ghostly Necromancers
-The Urgathoan Fly
-Worm that Walks (they killed the person this turns into)
-The Grey Friar and crew
-Marrowgarth
-General Sey'lok
-Gallowdead
-Adivion and crew
Fights that look like they might be filler:
-Witchgate Grove
-Hag trio (already fought one in previous module)
-Corpsewater mummies
-Gruesome Gurney Haunt
-Skeletal Nightmares
-The Reaper Door
-Barbed Devil and Tolling Bell Haunt
-Corpulent Ghouls (will probably change their class to Brawlers)
-Meladaemon and Ghouls
-Spectres and Vampire
-Invisible Stalkers and Mummies
-Mohrgs and Novices
-Omox demon and Mihstu
-Renchurch Novices (by themselves)
-Stone Golems
-8 Greater Shadows
-Bodaks
-Chittering Skulls Haunt
-Augnagar Qlippoth
-Devourers
-Leng Spider
-Blade Webs Trap
-Unholy Fire Elementals
-Keening Suicides Haunt
-Collapsing Stair Trap.
-Lone Nightwing
Anyone disagree with these/ had a bad experience with the upper list while a good experience with the lower ones? (Trying to trim some of the fat from the dozens of fights.) Thanks all!
Our group will have a month or so hiatus before we begin; another player DMs Kingmaker for the same group, which I also play in. Oddly enough, we're about to start book 5 in that one (which he has said has lots of good RP in it), so plenty of time for me to develop stuff and adapt anything you might have out there. I would be most appreciative!
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Fights that look interesting (on paper):
-Hagmouth I placed his encounter at a river with the Witchgate submerged, and replaced Hagmouth with a gare linnorm.
-Knights of Ozem (already foreshadowed them in book 3) I made four custom individuals for this encounter.
-Banshee
-Hungry Earth Haunt
-Tyrant's Whisper Haunts
-Svoac and the Evil Trees I replaced the trees with custom-built spiritualists.
-Asphyxiating Taxidermy Haunt
-Lazurite Focus and Renchurch Novices [I custom-built the novices with a spiritualist splash - see below.[/b]
-Lucimar
-Nalthezzar (alchemist Lich)
-Dead Water Haunt
-Impaled Haunt of St. Vesbias (already foreshadowed)
-Rejuvenating Lich and Cenobites [I set up a custom lich tied to one of my party members. You might like her though...[/b]
-Revenants
-Totenmaskes
-Ghostly Necromancers
-The Urgathoan Fly
-Worm that Walks (they killed the person this turns into)
-The Grey Friar and crew I'm probably going to make the Friar a warpriest - see below. His crew will be custom as well...
-Marrowgarth
-General Sey'lok
-Gallowdead
-Adivion and crew I went really different with Adivion, including mythic. He's better than you. Who's his crew?Fights that look like they might be filler:
-Witchgate Grove I concur. I replaced these with a ghoul gang... my party wind walked past this encounter.
-Hag trio (already fought one in previous module) [I created a custom trio of changelings - see below.[/b]
-Corpsewater mummies Cut.
-Gruesome Gurney Haunt Cut.
-Skeletal Nightmares Flavorful. I left them in for this reason. Just have them be out at the time, maybe?..
-The Reaper Door I don't hate it. It's a trap, shouldn't take long. You could cut it for xp budgeting reasons, though.
-Barbed Devil and Tolling Bell Haunt I had a nabasu archer here instead. No big loss though.
-Corpulent Ghouls (will probably change their class to Brawlers) I made them Slayers... but I like sneak attack and teamwork feats.
-Meladaemon and Ghouls Flavorful - I added the cleric and advanced templates to Vallabal.
-Spectres and Vampire I replaced the vampire with a weird character. See below.
-Invisible Stalkers and MummiesFlavorful - you could remove the monsters and just set the scene, though.
-Mohrgs and Novices Replaceable.
-Omox demon and Mihstu Cut.
-Renchurch Novices (by themselves) Flavorful. I liked it.
-Stone Golems Replaceable.
-8 Greater Shadows Filler is a bit of a misnomer. Someone might die. So much Strength damage...
-Bodaks Cut.
-Chittering Skulls Haunt As a haunt with upside, it's at least interesting and noteworthy.
-Augnagar Qlippoth Favored Enemy: Evil Outsiders. I think Mr. Hodge didn't want the book to be all undead.
-Devourers Replaceable.
-Leng Spider See the qlippoth.
-Blade Webs Trap Stays or goes with the spider.
-Unholy Fire Elementals They'll at least be a challenge. Maybe just one, but Mythic.
-Keening Suicides Haunt Flavorful... and lethal.
-Collapsing Stair Trap. Replaceable. It shows that the terrain is hostile here.
-Lone Nightwing Replaceable. Serves as a delay tactic so AA can buff.
A note on what follows - I have a 5-player group with two very efficient cohorts. Optimization was necessary. :)
HagmouthThe Tyrant and his favored servants were all undead. So my Witchgate was at the bottom of a river, thick with purulent gray fluid and pus. Hagmouth was replaced by a steam-breathing gare linnorm (from PF #50). My party negotiated passage with a regenerate spell after he blew their phantom steeds out from under them.
The Knights of Ozem - I replaced them with a "party": a paladin, a fighter, and a sorcerer (with Deific Obedience and ISG prestige classes for Iomedae) and a ranger (same, but Erastil).
The courtyard of Renchurch - I kept Svoac, but added the rogue template. He had plenty of flanking partners, since I replaced the quickwoods with four spiritualists (Occult Playtest). Each of them and their Hatred spirits, plus the Gate Tender, the archer, Yrasa Nine-Eyes (custom-built), and eventually the banshee and the bog mummies, all in one big action set-piece.
Renchurch Novices - I rebuilt them with a grapple focus and a spiritualist splash. It gives them shield and magic fang... plus, unlike the other spiritualists, these ones keep their spirits (of Zeal) inside. So a slender, wide-eyed girl comes out of nowhere, wraps her fingers around your throat, and strangles you, all while whispering about how you'll be part of Renchurch... forever. Eerie. (By the way, spiritualists seem very in-flavor here. I blame Brandon Hodge.)
Rejuvenating lich - The APs have the drawback of not having much space for custom stats, so they reuse the same stats (Ashes at Dawn is a prime example0 or lean on the NPC Codex. I wanted every lich to feel special, though. One of my PCs is an elf witch of unknown origin - I created this lich for her backstory. Princess Misoyvel was an elf noble of distant Sovyrian, vain and ambitious. When her evil plots were found out, she fled, vowing to one day return for vengeance. I built her as a 18th-level witch, with Prehensile Hair as her most iconic hex and Forced Reincarnation as her nastiest. Witch and Eldritch Heritage (fey) give her a lot to do even without most of her spells. I also set up her "death" at Havenguard Lunatic Asylum. She was sent to find Kendra (my Tyrant's Heir), who the PCs had cleverly hidden. Adivion showed up to put a stop to her rampage and to invite the PCs for dinner.
The Grey Friar and crew - As I said, I'll probably rebuild him as a warpriest. His backstory makes little sense for Pharasma, so I changed his origin to Aroden. As for the cenobites, they'll probably get a different stat block once I get that far. Again, lots of stat-block reuse in the APs.
Witchgate Groves - Just replace them. I was going to use a little ghoul horde, but I'm not sure that'd be best. The hangman trees are only mildly thematic at best. If anything in the adventure is filler, it's them. I haven't got any better replacements just yet, but if anyone else wants to jump in for me, I'd appreciate it. :)
The Hag and Witchfires - I tore these three out and replaced them with a trio of my own. It's an awful long story to pack in here, but three changelings - an accursed-bloodline sorcerer, a hexcrafter kapenia-dancer, and a cartomancer witch - used an esoteric magic item from the ACG, allowing the three of them to form a coven without a true hag. In my campaign, the changeling sorceress had drawn the Empty Throne from a Harrow deck of many things, revealing herself to be the lineal descendant of Soividia Ustav. She was also the daughter of one of the PCs, who was on that path himself. My group used diplomacy to deal with the trio; yours might not be so inclined.
Spectres and Vampire - Remember that elf princess? I replaced Natisha with Misoyvel's Handmaiden, a vetala lashunta psychic, and the spectres with the princess's brainwashed elvish blademasters. They're interesting, but without the setup, they'll be out of place. Of course, this might be foreshadowing; if you think it'll work for your group, by all means. I also have an old "prototype" of the vampiress as a shadow caller summoner...
Corpulent ghouls and meladaemon - My group just fought this lot last night. My data are inconclusive, however, as a single holy word shut down all the little ghouls forthwith. Still, my plan of ghoul slayers with Old As Dust remains strong. We'll see how they feel when the ghouls they readily slew are up and ready when next they pass by...
Flavorful - You'll notice I kept using that term. It's what I call encounters that aren't just here to provide a challenge, but to play into deeper themes, add exotic touches, or just reveal history. If you think the time spent on some or all of these won't be worth the thematic payoff, or that your group won't appreciate the time or theme, feel free to cut and replace.For me, flavor trumped filler, so I don't have immediate ideas for replacements. If you want to discuss one or more replacement encounters, I'll be here. :)
Builds can be provided for almost all of these upon request - I keep archives of everything, and if I haven't made it yet, I'll make it just for you. I can instead just give you the basic idea, if you'd rather build it yourself. I can also give customization advice or put together a build if you want something a bit more specific to your PCs.
Regarding Renchurch, there's a reason to put living foes in. They spawn haunts. Per the Soul Haunting effect, any living creature that dies on the Renchurch grounds spawns a high-CR haunt. So if the party fights deep, then retreats to rest... their next visit will be a bit spookier. I can provide some of the ones I used, too.
In transit, the weather effects and the Tyrant's Whispers (which I extended throughout Virlych) can really keep a party on their toes, especially if used just sparingly enough. I also have Adivion using a beefed-up enter image to act through statues in Renchurch, in Adorak, and across Virlych.
I'm running out of steam, so I'll leave this post at that. I welcome questions, comments, requests, whatever. I hope this helps. :)
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Man, I have to agree with Taperat. It took us months to get through Renchurch. I don't even want to think about how many sessions.
I don't have much input for one of the pc's as a vampire but as far as taking alternate methods to Renchurch if they didn't already know where it was I would just make it a huge Whispering Way 'Whisper'.
Luvick knows that Renchurch exists but he has no idea where it is. He just knows that you use the Witchgates to find it. Finding it otherwise would take months of flying around through REALLY bad weather. The Whispering Way has spent hundreds of years finding references to it and burning them.
If they air walk it throw near constant storm effects (the special ones) and lightning elementals. Maybe a Nightwing that flies in on them and casts greater dispel magic to remove their flight spells.
Fights that look interesting (on paper):
-Hagmouth – An ok fight. Highly suggested to modify it’s lair to increase difficulty.
-Knights of Ozem - A single glimmer of RP in an otherwise barren landscape.
-Banshee – Interesting encounter dynamic. It was a good ‘Welcome to Renchurch’ sign for my players.
-Hungry Earth Haunt – Party skipped it.
-Tyrant's Whisper Haunts - I did the ones that were scripted to happen and ignored the random ones.
-Svoac and the Evil Trees - One of the better encounters at Renchurch for me. Remember to combine with Hamatula Devil to make even more challenging. Given party route mummies might be involved as well.
-Asphyxiating Taxidermy Haunt - Make sure to decide before the fight when this haunt goes off each turn. I botched that and several players were angry that I nearly killed their characters.
-Lazurite Focus and Renchurch Novices - I recommend combining this fight with the above haunt, and the vampire / ghost combo to make one big fight.
-Lucimar - My favorite villain. The temptation is to make him do too much with each attack. I recommend doing one or two things and then running. Have him Dim Door to the chapel to both update the Gray Friar and heal in the necrotic well for just a touch more hp.
-Nalthezzar (alchemist Lich) – If possible (if I could go back) I would have this fight combine with a lowered number of novices and mohrg’s on the stairs to make one huge fight. My party trounced him.
-Dead Water Haunt – Given a do-over I would remove this haunt. Cutting down on Save or Die.
-Impaled Haunt of St. Vesbias (already foreshadowed)
-Rejuvenating Lich and Cenobites - I replaced the cenobites here with Skeletal Champion Antipaladins.
-Revenants – Monstrous fight. Remember to factor in their hatred ability and unhallow and advanced.
-Totenmaskes – I combined with stone golems. By themselves they are ridiculously easily dispatched.
-Ghostly Necromancers - Cut-able. If I would have stuck with rules as written their possession ability would have wiped my group.
-The Urgathoan Fly – Fun fight. Definitely one of the highlights of my campaign.
-Worm that Walks (they killed the person this turns into)
-The Grey Friar and Crew
-Marrowgarth
-General Sey'lok - The importance of General Sey’lok is getting haste on him and then remembering all his various abilities. Gaze attack. Always do quickened unholy blight. Always sunder. Kill paladins first.
-Gallowdead – I’ll tell you in two weeks.
-Adivion and crew – Ditto.
Fights that look like they might be filler:
-Witchgate Grove – Given a chance I would cut.
-Hag trio (already fought one in previous module)
-Corpsewater mummies – Has potential to snow-ball with fight at the doors. Devil has line of sight here and can get Svoac throwing stones as well.
-Gruesome Gurney Haunt
-Skeletal Nightmares – A largely forgettable fight but as window dressing it’s nice.
-The Reaper Door
-Barbed Devil and Tolling Bell Haunt – Would keep to use Tyrant Whispers Haunt to throw an unspecting player into it.
-Corpulent Ghouls (will probably change their class to Brawlers)
-Meladaemon and Ghouls
-Spectres and Vampire – See Renchurch Novices / Lazurite Focus. I changed the vampire to one of Keep Calm and Carrion's Bloodsucking Fiend Brawlers.
-Invisible Stalkers and Mummies – I would cut given another chance.
-Mohrgs and Novices – See alchemist lich.
-Omox demon and Mihstu - cut
-Renchurch Novices (by themselves) - cut
-Stone Golems – Combine with Totenmaskes?
-8 Greater Shadows – Absolutely a murder machine to an unprepared party. I should have cut them.
-Bodaks – I kept these as shock troops for Lucimar when the party fell back and then returned to the dungeon.
-Chittering Skulls Haunt – Good exposition.
-Augnagar Qlippoth - I love this creature but I think I would cut it given another chance.
-Devourers – Awesome fight.
-Leng Spider – I would cut her.
-Blade Webs Trap –See above.
-Unholy Fire Elementals – An awesome fight with the potential to do a lot of damage. Constant movement + spring attack +wind stance + mobility.
-Keening Suicides Haunt – Did this haunt yesterday. Has the potential to be a huge set-back so near the end.
-Collapsing Stair Trap – I intend to combine with the Gallowdead.
Luvick knows that Renchurch exists but he has no idea where it is. He just knows that you use the Witchgates to find it. Finding it otherwise would take months of flying around through REALLY bad weather. The Whispering Way has spent hundreds of years finding references to it and burning them.
How do the Witchgates help find Renchurch? Don't they make it harder? I like the idea it is hard to find. What are some mechanics to obscure its location?