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Chuckle, indeed I did.
Basically I don't care what special snowflake story you have. If you are emulating something that has its own mechanics, then you must be that thing. If that thing is not allowed, then you cannot emulate it.
Egyptian skinned (middle eastern or bronzed) which is essentially Garundi, with pale white hair, is within the rules. So is fine.
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Chuckle, indeed I did.
Basically I don't care what special snowflake story you have. If you are emulating something that has its own mechanics, then you must be that thing. If that thing is not allowed, then you cannot emulate it.
Egyptian skinned (middle eastern or bronzed) which is essentially Garundi, with pale white hair, is within the rules. So is fine.
Demeaning terms like "special snowflake" should be beneath you as a 5-star GM and a representative of Paizo's organized play. Please be more considerate of others' play styles. :)
Would you please cite the rules regarding legal skin tones for elves? I don't believe I've seen those rules.
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<eyerole> some people need to have a thicker skin if that offended.
It isn't about legal elf skin tones. Although either the CRB, ARG, or Elves of Gokarion are likely to give you common appearances.
The key is that Drow have a specific look, so making your elf look that way, is reskinning.
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I just remembered...
You know what PFS legal-with-a-boon option is out there for night-black-skinned, white-haired characters?
Aasimar. Especially if the have ties to the Black Butterfly.
Black is actually one of my top favorite options for aasimar skin colors, though I usually couple that with equally black hair or baldness.
Umm, I`m not sure how much it`s an issue of genetics as it is that Miss Monroe is simply too old to care about dying her hair.
Nah, she's been that way since she was seven. ;)
And honestly, dying her hair would be tame compared to what she's doing with it these days.
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You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
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<eyerole> some people need to have a thicker skin if that offended.
It isn't about legal elf skin tones. Although either the CRB, ARG, or Elves of Gokarion are likely to give you common appearances.
The key is that Drow have a specific look, so making your elf look that way, is reskinning.
I apologize for offending you, and I hope you aren't too upset. I simply wanted to ask you to be more polite to Pathfinder Society players. As a Venture-captain, the example you set is important, and bullying or denigrating playstyles shouldn't be seen as acceptable among PFS GMs.
It appears to be about legal elf skin tones. You appear to be saying that only "common" skin tones are legal for elves. Is this true? I haven't found anything about this.
It has been shown that dark skin and white hair are not abnormal for surface dwellers. Are we not allowed to play characters of certain ethnicities? I haven't seen anything to support this either. Could you please provide further reference material about PFS-legal ethnic material?
Thank you for your time. :)
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<eyerole> some people need to have a thicker skin if that offended.
It isn't about legal elf skin tones. Although either the CRB, ARG, or Elves of Gokarion are likely to give you common appearances.
The key is that Drow have a specific look, so making your elf look that way, is reskinning.
I apologize for offending you, and I hope you aren't too upset. I simply wanted to ask you to be more polite to Pathfinder Society players. As a Venture-captain, the example you set is important, and bullying or denigrating playstyles shouldn't be seen as acceptable among PFS GMs.
It appears to be about legal elf skin tones. You appear to be saying that only "common" skin tones are legal for elves. Is this true? I haven't found anything about this.
It has been shown that dark skin and white hair are not abnormal for surface dwellers. Are we not allowed to play characters of certain ethnicities? I haven't seen anything to support this either. Could you please provide further reference material about PFS-legal ethnic material?
Thank you for your time. :)
You did not offend. Heck, I have two or three special snowflakes of my own.
But I do my best to create my unique characters within the confines of additional resources. Rather than ignoring them to make whatever my fancy desires. And yes, there are a couple character concepts I've chosen to hold for a home game.
Additional Resources will tell you what ethnicities are allowed. Almost all human ones (I don't know of one not) from Inner Sea World Guide and many of the Campaign books. Sargava details two Mwangi ethnicities while People of the North details an Eskimo like Erutaki and an Elf ethnicity.
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I would hope the non drow policy would extend to saw tooth sabres or other weapons only used by evil organizations or evil races!If you want to discuss that, start a different thread. This thread was about drow and half drow and that's what I addressed.
Honestly I think you have enough work... and you do a damn fine work so far!
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You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
I understand.
Can you comment on permitted (non-drow) ethnicities and skin colors among characters? Is it possible to amend the Pathfinder Society rules to clarify this?
I appreciate your willingness to address players' concerns. Thank you for your time. :)
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You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
First and foremost: Thank you Mike for sharing your thoughts.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
As pointed out upthread, we have it demonstrated on record that the Decemvirate does indeed embrace/tolerate monsters that are despised and hated. It's not really sound to argue that Drow are verboten simply on the basis you quoted here.
However, there is an interesting wrinkle you could use in making a sound argument. "Monsters" that are already allowed all require a boon to play.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
Mike, please excuse my hubris but I'm going to address you like a peer here. You really want to consider what you're doing. I'll agree that it's possible to do what you want to do, but it'll be very hard to do it in a way that causes less harm than good. A potential "you can't look like a drow" rule is more likely than not ending up being your Pandora's Box.
A few dimensions you'll be wise to consider:
Canonicity of ethnicity: It's not just a catchy rhyme I just made up. But saying some skin colors are ok and others are not is just something that's not likely to work out in a positive manner. I'll just mention real-world race and leave it at that.
Beyond that, you'll be linking ethnicity to the "tech treadmill" of books being made available for PFS. More work for yourself (or your minions) to approve every new ethnicity as they become published.
Potential Double Standards: Will your rule only apply to elves/half elves, or will EVERY race be subject to Campaign Staff approved colors? What if someone* has a boon-legal Dhampir character that looks like a Drow? Is that going to be legal or banned?
Consider also the double standard of colors, rather than just race. Will other "unnatural" color combinations be banned, like red skin with purple hair? Or just black skin with white hair?
Defining what "looks" like a Drow: Loki's Wager was quoted upthread. How are you going to resolve drawing that line? Are you going to avoid the quandary and delegate the issue down to table GMs to "know it when they see it" or remove table variation from the equation?
Defining what is "a drow": Is this a drow? Is this? Is this? They're all "dark elves" from franchises other than yours. So does that count as "drow-dom" for PFS, or not?
Defining what is "looking like", part II: Will your rule extend beyond the character description/background? Are drow minis verboten? What about pictures of a drow on one's table tent?
Mike, I'm not asking you to argue with me or even respond. I'd love it if you did, but I don't expect it. Not because I'm being pessimistically dismissive, but because you don't owe me that. I'm simply asking to completely think about what you're promising to do. And then rethink it again. Establishing what you can and can't do in your character description/background is a hell of a precedent to make.
*= yeah, that someone is me. I have a boon-legal Dhampir that looks like a Drow. No, he doesn't say he's a drow; he doesn't imply he's a drow. He's technically albino (white hair) but his skin is permanenly bruised all over and subsequently blue-black. Sunlight has that effect on him, as does the occupational hazard of being exposed to fellow field agents' positive energy channels. He has pointed ears because Rule of Cool. I use a picture of a Drow on his table tent. I reserve the right to use a drow mini to represent him on the table mat. Am I wrongbad? It may not come as much of a surprise that I'm quite prepared to pitch a grade-A hissy fit if someone says I'm wrongbad.
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You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
I understand.
Can you comment on permitted (non-drow) ethnicities and skin colors among characters? Is it possible to amend the Pathfinder Society rules to clarify this?
I appreciate your willingness to address players' concerns. Thank you for your time. :)
As I noted above. Additional resources will tell you what ethnicities from the various books are available for play. Other than that, what explicitly are you looking for?
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As I noted above. Additional resources will tell you what ethnicities from the various books are available for play. Other than that, what explicitly are you looking for?You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
I understand.
Can you comment on permitted (non-drow) ethnicities and skin colors among characters? Is it possible to amend the Pathfinder Society rules to clarify this?
I appreciate your willingness to address players' concerns. Thank you for your time. :)
What I have gathered from your posts is that "black" elves, such as Ekujae, are not legal, despite having nothing to do with drow. This seems to run counter to the general theme of Mr. Brock's post, as Ekujae are not "monsters" like drow.
Your statement that elves could not be darker than a certain skin tone doesn't seem very appropriate for a company as inclusive as Paizo. I was hoping that Mr. Brock could put my concerns to rest regarding which races are permitted representation in Pathfinder organized play.
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Some people play the game, others play against it.
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@ Kalindlara
err Ekujae look nothing like drow and I cant see anywhere that says that elves are a unplayable race (or are even separated into "regional elves") and snowborn and wild elves (Mwangi) are mentioned in the books I believe
also (ekujae is a tribe of elves not an ethnicity if I remember correctly)
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@ Kalindlara
err Ekujae look nothing like drow ...
In your opinion.
It's equally valid to say they look "sort of" like drow.
It's certainly valid to say they look "more like" a drow than a cream-skinned elf.
Opinions are not just unique from person to person, they're nebulous. "Looking like" is something that's essentially impossible to discretely quantify. It's the the very essence of qualification.
One of the many problems with saying "you can't look like a drow" is finding a way to prevent drow clones while simultaneously and explicitly allowing dark skin.
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@ Kalindlara
err Ekujae look nothing like drow and I cant see anywhere that says that elves are a unplayable race (or are even separated into "regional elves") and snowborn and wild elves (Mwangi) are mentioned in the books I believealso (ekujae is a tribe of elves not an ethnicity if I remember correctly)
Mikaze's post on the previous page explained some of the issues at hand.
I don't want to put words in the Venture-Captain's mouth, so if I'm misrepresenting his position, I apologize. Despite the existence of Ekujae (and the related Mwangi elves who I've been lazily including under that title, since referring to them by skin color seems tasteless at best), they have not received an official "ethnicity" heading in a sourcebook. Thus, all elves are generic (no darker than copper, since white is default for elves) or Snowcaster; Ekujae/Mwangi elves are considered reskinned drow due to their skin tone.
So, you can be an elf, as long as you are at least X percent white. I know it sounds bad, and if I've misrepresented anyone's position, I apologize, and hope we can clarify things. :)
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you are right it is my opinion that they do not look drow but if you compare the image of the drow in the adventure path involving drow and look at the image that Mikaze posted earlier you may look differently. I honestly would hope that you see the difference if not please explain
also kalindlara you are misrepresenting in an extreme they are not ethnic elves they are elves who have been raised in a different environment also if an elf form Kyonin was to move to Mwangi for a extended amount of time it would start to adapt to its environment by having a skin pigment change and maybe a different hue to its hair color but still be a elf
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As I noted above. Additional resources will tell you what ethnicities from the various books are available for play. Other than that, what explicitly are you looking for?You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
I understand.
Can you comment on permitted (non-drow) ethnicities and skin colors among characters? Is it possible to amend the Pathfinder Society rules to clarify this?
I appreciate your willingness to address players' concerns. Thank you for your time. :)
What I have gathered from your posts is that "black" elves, such as Ekujae, are not legal, despite having nothing to do with drow. This seems to run counter to the general theme of Mr. Brock's post, as Ekujae are not "monsters" like drow.
Your statement that elves could not be darker than a certain skin tone doesn't seem very appropriate for a company as inclusive as Paizo. I was hoping that Mr. Brock could put my concerns to rest regarding which races are permitted representation in Pathfinder organized play.
I don't claim to be a Golarion Lore expert. So I'm not familiar with the Ekujae. What book are those out of? Check the additional resources from that book to see if they are available for play. If not, then they aren't.
As for skin color, nobody in the real world is jet black. Are the Ekujae? Or are they dark brown?
Let's be clear here though. The descrimination is not against skin color, but rather explicitly against an evil monster.
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you are right it is my opinion that they do not look drow but if you compare the image of the drow in the adventure path involving drow and look at the image that Mikaze posted earlier you may look differently.
also kalindlara you are misrepresenting in an extreme they are not ethnic elves they are elves who have been raised in a different environment also if an elf form Kyonin was to move to Mwangi for a extended amount of time it would start to adapt to its environment by having a skin pigment change and maybe a different hue to its hair color but still be a elf
There's that example you posted, as well as others like the ARG that establish that drow are in fact blue skinned, not black skinned. So, black skinned elves should be fine then, since they don't look like Golarion drow, right?
I don't mean to argue, that's a rhetorical statement. I'm demonstrating that "looking like a drow" is a mobile point. You can't say with perfect certainty what does or does not look like a drow. There are only opinions, and it's terrible form to force one's opinion on someone else.
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...What book are those out of? Check the additional resources from that book to see if they are available for play. If not, then they aren't...
Andrew, that's (one of) the problem right there.
Take that same attitude and change the situation to a human PC.
Someone wants to play a really dark skinned human. Darker than the dark pastel blue drow are commonly depected as in paizo art. Mwangi are legal, Osiriani and a few others are legal where that skin color is common.
You're saying that you HAVE to play one of those ethnicities to be dark skinned. No, you can't play a dark skinned Chelaxian. Hell no, you can't play a dark skinned Skald, those guys are like vikings and stuff!
Look at what you're saying. You're saying a background where a viking married a dark skinned person (from wherever) bore and raised a dark skinned child in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings is not appropriate for PFS.
And before you protest, yes you are saying this. Not directly, but by extension.
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you are right it is my opinion that they do not look drow but if you compare the image of the drow in the adventure path involving drow and look at the image that Mikaze posted earlier you may look differently.
also kalindlara you are misrepresenting in an extreme they are not ethnic elves they are elves who have been raised in a different environment also if an elf form Kyonin was to move to Mwangi for a extended amount of time it would start to adapt to its environment by having a skin pigment change and maybe a different hue to its hair color but still be a elf
There's that example you posted, as well as others like the ARG that establish that drow are in fact blue skinned, not black skinned. So, black skinned elves should be fine then, since they don't look like Golarion drow, right?
I don't mean to argue, that's a rhetorical statement. I'm demonstrating that "looking like a drow" is a mobile point. You can't say with perfect certainty what does or does not look like a drow. There are only opinions, and it's terrible form to force one's opinion on someone else.
1)if you don't mind can you answer the question honestly please I performed the courtesy of addressing your post you can at least afford me the same courtesy
2)while you do seem to want to argue dont hide it debate brings us closer to understanding other people
3)yes I would considered a very dark pigmented elf to be acceptable as most of your damphire description to be acceptable as you have explained that you have appeared albino but have had an adverse reaction to positive energy the long ears are a bit of a stretch
( no pun intended :P) but to me it sounds as if you are a ill fated undead spawn who does not really look like a drow
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1)if you don't mind can you answer the question honestly please I performed the courtesy of addressing your post you can at least afford me the same courtesy
I'm sincerely sorry for being obtuse but I didn't see a question. I didn't mean to say your opinion that Ekujae don't look like drow was invalid.. just that it's one opinion that has no more or less validity than any other opinion, even those that might differ about the conclusion about whether or not they look like drow.
2)while you do seem to want to argue dont hide it debate brings us closer to understanding other people
Well, I thought I was fairly up front about saying what my point of view is. I think my posts here, here (although subsequently rendered moot by Mike Brock), and here (responding to Mike Brock) pretty well sum up my argument throughout the thread.
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I don't claim to be a Golarion Lore expert. So I'm not familiar with the Ekujae. What book are those...As I noted above. Additional resources will tell you what ethnicities from the various books are available for play. Other than that, what explicitly are you looking for?You can't reskin a character to look like a drow. You also can not play a character who is descended from a Drow, including a half-elf with drow ancestry. Since this is, unfortunately, not clear, I will make sure it is documented where it needs to be.
Drow are evil. Drow are despised and hated. Drow are essentially kill on sight because they are considered a monster for all intent and purposes. The Society would likely not accept a character that looks like a Drow due to the problems that come with it.
If you want to use a disguise kit or a hat of disguise or whatever to try to look like a Drow, then it is an option. However, the reactions of NPCs will likely cause grief for the other characters and the GM is well within his or her rights to have NPCs act accordingly if they fail their perception and think the character is a Drow.
I understand.
Can you comment on permitted (non-drow) ethnicities and skin colors among characters? Is it possible to amend the Pathfinder Society rules to clarify this?
I appreciate your willingness to address players' concerns. Thank you for your time. :)
What I have gathered from your posts is that "black" elves, such as Ekujae, are not legal, despite having nothing to do with drow. This seems to run counter to the general theme of Mr. Brock's post, as Ekujae are not "monsters" like drow.
Your statement that elves could not be darker than a certain skin tone doesn't seem very appropriate for a company as inclusive as Paizo. I was hoping that Mr. Brock could put my concerns to rest regarding which races are permitted representation in Pathfinder organized play.
I'll have to return to this conversation later. I apologize. I can't deal with this right now. I'm sorry. I hope Paizo becomes better.
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I have a "dark-skinned elf" PC. I refer to him as a "dark-skinned elf" and other players at the table (I can only assume) think of him as an elf.
He is not a drow, he doesn't look like a drow, he isn't claimed to be a drow or treated as one in any way.
It's not that hard. The rule is "no reskinning;" implications of reskinning, equivocal mentions of reskinning, casual nonverbal cues of reskinning, are all reskinning. "No drow" = "No drow."
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Sasha, I think when it comes down to its core one of the bigger issues is that Drow live so isolated from society that it's really not realistic for any significant portion of their society to break off and not be evil. It's not to say that individual Drow can't be non-evil but they're still separated from society and discriminated against enough that they're not viable player character options. Sure Half-Orcs can be discriminated against too but they're not actively hunted the same way anyone resembling a Drow would be.
And the sad fact is not everything published by Paizo is intended for PFS. Some of it is out there for curious people who may want to use it in a private setting.
Also kudos to you for not being intimidated by what was probably quite an unexpected flurry of argumentative posts following what was a pretty straightforward question. I hope you enjoy playing PFS despite not necessarily getting to play what you want in this case.
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Let's tone the rhetoric down a bit folks. There is nothing racist going on here.
Drow have a signature look. Anything that makes me think Drow, is verboten.
If the Ekujae can be described similarly, then I might ask at your description, "Ah, are you an Ekujae elf?" If you can't define for me how your elf looks like a drow, within the lore of Golaruon, without it having some drow Heritage, then you tell me what I should do?
Let you get away with playing a Drow-like elf, or call you on it?
FYI, there weren't character concepts of jet-black elves with white hair prior to Drzzt.
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Also In Golarion background there is an entire secret orginisation dedicated to eradicating any evidence of Drow to the extent that even a lot of surface elves dont believe they exist. As said earlier in Golarion (Till certain events happen) Drow are boogymen that most dont believe exist which becomes a bit of a problem when you have one as a memeber of your orginisation.
It's notthat there evil that's in dispute it's there very existence (Unlike tiefling etc that everyone knows exist)
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Also In Golarion background there is an entire secret orginisation dedicated to eradicating any evidence of Drow to the extent that even a lot of surface elves dont believe they exist.
That, and their loving parents, who (if they were even interested in making little half-drow) would have fleshwarped them into constantly screaming musical pets or fungal spore farms, or sent retrievers after those who "managed to escape".
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Let's tone the rhetoric down a bit folks. There is nothing racist going on here.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Honestly Andrew, I don't think you or Mike or anyone who shares your opinion that there should be a rule preventing drow-like appearances has racist motives. Sincerely.
However, the devil is indeed in the details. I wasn't so much accusing you as pointing out you're advocating opening a can of worms and questioning whether it's truly worth the effort.
Drow have a signature look. Anything that makes me think Drow, is verboten.
This is, in my own singular opinion, the problematic part. And it has nothing to do with Drow directly-
Why should someone besides the player get a veto over that player's character's appearance or background? In what way is that a good idea?
If the Ekujae can be described similarly, then I might ask at your description, "Ah, are you an Ekujae elf?" If you can't define for me how your elf looks like a drow, within the lore of Golaruon, without it having some drow Heritage, then you tell me what I should do?
Let you get away with playing a Drow-like elf, or call you on it?
What if I said "My character IS a drow. From Menzoberranzan. Yes, that Menzoberranzan on Abeir-Toril. (or a Night Elf from Azeroth. Or some other Dark Elf from some other world.) You see, I hitched a ride from Space Squid from that planet to this fine one. I like Golarion. I'm going to stay here." Of course I'm not a Golarion drow... mechanics-wise I'm just a regular elf for Golarion but with a peculiar appearance. Who are you to say the Lantern Bearers should have caught up with me before now when I say they didn't?
That's possible within the context of the lore of Golarion. Hell, I know of an AP that stresses that real world earth is out there in the same Prime Material Plane as Golarion. A drow PC could literally be a Drizzt Cosplayer who was sucked to Golarion from Gen Con in a magical vortex.
FYI, there weren't character concepts of jet-black elves with white hair prior to Drzzt.
Andrew that does disservice to the plea at the beginning of your post to tone down rhetoric. It also gives voice to the suspicion that I harbored but didn't voice that at least some of the "anti-drow" rules sentiment have less to do with logic and reason than a dislike for Drizzt fanbois.
I don't consider myself one, and go so far as to treat the very claim of having a drow PC a first, automatic strike in being branded a munchkin. However, Drizzt Fanbois have every same right to play what they like as do Bronies, Faerie Princess Enthusiasts, and everyone else. Singling them out on an institutional level, as you're appearing to do, that is what should be verboten.
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Drow have a signature look. Anything that makes me think Drow, is verboten.This is, in my own singular opinion, the problematic part. And it has nothing to do with Drow directly-
Why should someone besides the player get a veto over that player's character's appearance or background? In what way is that a good idea?
Let me turn the question around on you:
Given Golarion Lore, where Drow, if known, are despised by everyone. End point. And if they aren't known, when they do come into contact with people, the quickly become despised. Why? Because they have no redeeming moral quality. They are horrible creatures. They are monsters to be fought in the night.
What right does a player have to impose a story into Golarion that could prove problematic for a table GM, other players, etc?
What right does a player have to impose their story on Golarion? To oppose what the creative director of Paizo and the head honcho of Golarion creation stuff has said about Drow?
If I'm running a home game, where the primary foil of the PCs is going to be Drow, and I am looking for the campaign to go a certain way, I will, up-front, tell the players what that expectation is. They have a choice to play under those expectations or not. What right would a player have to try and make me change the story just for them, so they could play a Drow-ish character?
This is essentially what you are proposing. That just because this is an organized play campaign, that players have the right to impose their design choices onto the campaign, that has a set of expectations. The Guide to Organized Play and Additional Resources indicate what players can create. Drow aren't one of those things.
Disallowing folks from creating a Drow is not a highway to hell, as you essentially stated above.
Now I'm actually starting to get annoyed and insulted by the fact I'm being painted as racist because I'm arguing against allowing Drow.
So I'm outta here.
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Let me turn the question around on you:
I know you promised you're leaving in disgust, but since you posed me the question I'll respond anyway.
Given Golarion Lore, where Drow, if known, are despised by everyone. End point.
I think you can add in there that those who do know of Drow are few and far between. So doesn't that make them unlikely to come up in play? If they're not there to cause problems, they're not causing problems.
And if they aren't known, when they do come into contact with people, the quickly become despised. Why? Because they have no redeeming moral quality. They are horrible creatures. They are monsters to be fought in the night.
I thought it was understood that a PC with drowlike appearance wouldn't come with immunity to the "No evil alignments" rule for PFS. If that needs to be explicitly said, I'm saying now that I'm not advocating that drow-looking PCs should get immunity from the "no evil alignments" rule.
Since drow-looking PCs have to be non-evilly aligned just like any other PFS character, how would they be spreading a drow-like reputation for vile evil among the vast majority of NPCs across the Pathfinder setting who are unaware of Drow?
What right does a player have to impose a story into Golarion that could prove problematic for a table GM, other players, etc?
The rights given in PFS guide to field play. The very act of bringing a gunslinger to a PFS table may prove problematic for other players and GM. That player can be so crass as defending his position as saying "Suck on it." and the GM and other players still have to deal. Well, maybe they can kick him for saying "Suck on it" but not for bringing a Gunslinger.
What right does a player have to impose their story on Golarion? To oppose what the creative director of Paizo and the head honcho of Golarion creation stuff has said about Drow?
Same answer as above. I can claim to be playing Princess Eutropia, slumming it in an alter ego and you can't say I'm not playing her. Hell, I can say I'm playing the hidden aspect of Aroden and you can't say I'm not.
Playing an elf with a funny appearance is very, very small potatoes. And ridiculous to fixate upon, imo.
If I'm running a home game, where the primary foil of the PCs is going to be Drow, and I am looking for the campaign to go a certain way, I will, up-front, tell the players what that expectation is. They have a choice to play under those expectations or not. What right would a player have to try and make me change the story just for them, so they could play a Drow-ish character?
This is essentially what you are proposing. That just because this is an organized play campaign, that players have the right to impose their design choices onto the campaign, that has a set of expectations. The Guide to Organized Play and Additional Resources indicate what players can create. Drow aren't one of those things.
Perhaps my recent example was faulty by including the words "I'm a drow". So long as the player never says he's playing a drow, simply something that looks like a drow, then he's not playing a drow. In PFS the standard is* that it's ok to make up non-canonical appearances for elves, half elves, and any other playable race. My dwarf can have red skin and a purple beard. My halfling can have green skin and pointed teeth. My elf should be allowed then to have black skin and white hair.
*=of course, Mike Brock's promised clarification may screw with this, depending on how he words it.
Now I'm actually starting to get annoyed and insulted by the fact I'm being painted as racist because I'm arguing against allowing Drow.
So I'm outta here.
I'm sincerely sorry I offended. I do hope you see this post at least once to see that apology, as well as the clarification that I wasn't calling you racist. I was saying you're not fully thinking about the ramifications of what you're advocating.
If that offends you as well, que sera sera. At least I'm not calling you racist.
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1) The only ramifications of what I'm advocating, is that you can't play a Drow, a Drow Look-alike, a Drow wannabe, or a character with Drow Heritage. There are no further ramifications than that. None.
2) Mike has made his decision about Drow. That's the way it is in this campaign.
3) It isn't about what they are hurting or not hurting. There is a rule for what's allowed and what isn't. Players are expected to follow the rules. That's the social contract we make with one another when we play an organized game like this. That we follow the rules set forward by the Powers that Be.
4) I see no justifiable reason why a character could essentially "look like a Drow" but "not be a Drow" for the intents of social interaction. An NPC with Knowledge (local) would only need a DC 15 check to determine you are a Drow. And what about those scenarios (there are at least two) where Drow are the antagonists? How should I have them interact with your character? They will automatically know you "are a Drow". Or how should I have them roleplay, "Hey man, you look completely like us, but for some reason I'm unaware of, I totally know you aren't one of us."
It just keeps everything clean and simple. There aren't any weird situations a GM has to deal with. It makes sure players take the consequestions of their choices.
Its simple. No Drow means No Drow stuff. Period.
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I think our discourse escalated to heated levels far too quickly, and I'm going to give you time to think. However I will respond to one more thing:
4) I see no justifiable reason why a character could essentially "look like a Drow" but "not be a Drow" for the intents of social interaction.
Let's say a player is familiar with the MMO lineage II. She likes the aesthetic of the dark elves in that game. She wants to say her elf character looks just like one of these portraits.
"looking too much like a drow" is a continuum that is completely distinct from the binary question of being a drow or not being a drow. Lineage II dark elves, as this singular non-real-world-racism-related example shows, might arguably be said to look like golarion drow and arguably might not.
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4) I see no justifiable reason why a character could essentially "look like a Drow" but "not be a Drow" for the intents of social interaction. An NPC with Knowledge (local) would only need a DC 15 check to determine you are a Drow. And what about those scenarios (there are at least two) where Drow are the antagonists? How should I have them interact with your character? They will automatically know you "are a Drow". Or how should I have them roleplay, "Hey man, you look completely like us, but for some reason I'm unaware of, I totally know you aren't one of us."
My cleric of Groetus is terrified by this line of reasoning, though I suppose there is some comfort in that the DC to identify the holy symbol that he brandishes so brazenly is slightly higher than 15.
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My cleric of Groetus is terrified by this line of reasoning, though I suppose there is some comfort in that the DC to identify the holy symbol that he brandishes so brazenly is slightly higher than 15.4) I see no justifiable reason why a character could essentially "look like a Drow" but "not be a Drow" for the intents of social interaction. An NPC with Knowledge (local) would only need a DC 15 check to determine you are a Drow. And what about those scenarios (there are at least two) where Drow are the antagonists? How should I have them interact with your character? They will automatically know you "are a Drow". Or how should I have them roleplay, "Hey man, you look completely like us, but for some reason I'm unaware of, I totally know you aren't one of us."
Indeed. There are plenty of deliberately unsavory character background ideas perfectly legal in PFS. If drow-like elves are supposed to cause social problems for the rest of the party, then so are a LOT of other existing PFS characters.