Sword and shield suffer from the same gimp that TWF suffers...
...if your standing optimally for a full attack you will hardly see much difference in damage. But when you start adding DR then the two handed guy come out on top again.
Sure, until someone uses some of the countless ways of mitigating the normal problems with TWF. It doesn't require a ton of bonus damage before doubling attacks starts to get truly mean, and there are ways to help out standard attacks as well.
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Two-handed fighting is better for precisely one reason: It's dead easy to meet the bar for being an effective and welcome member of a party. Just take Power Attack, a feat every melee needs anyway. From there you can branch out, or not, at your option, but you're online from level 1.
Under exactly what circumstances other builds do or do not surpass 2HF is immaterial against the weight of how dead easy it is to be effective with 2HF, how it comes online immediately, and how it remains good all the way to the end.
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I've never allowed the thunder striker. If You don't swing, then yes you can gain the AC.You'd never get Buckler AC when two handing a weapon in my game.Even when abilities specifically allow it, such as the Thunderstriker's Improved Buckler Defense ability?
What about if you never attack?
That's a shame. That archetype is meant to emulate true to life sword and buckler fighting.
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I posit that the reason shields vanished from the battlefields was not because of 2h weapons. 2h weapons are generally not hugely viable in formation fighting.
No, the reason shields went away is for the same reason armor eventually went away...the rise of gunpowder weapons, particularly cannons.
A shield is little to no protection against sustained musket fire, and a big fat target for bouncing cannonballs. Its primary role as defense against ranged attacks was thus removed, and the usefulness of bearing one was outweighed by the benefits of speed and formation marching. As gunpowder weapons advanced, less and less armor was worn by all sides in conflict, simply because it did less and less good to the wearer. You ended up with more maneuverable, nimble opponents on the battlefield who could get into positions faster, take cover against gunfire, or simply didn't bother to protect against it at all.
Thus, shield walls gave way to pike formations, which gave way to lines of musketeers, and armored knights and archers had no more place in this new world then did shield bearers.
Note that shields in the hands of police didn't start making a comeback until they were impervious to rifle fire. Even then, you don't see them on a battlefield, because they don't protect you against grenades or gas, and they are cumbersome and slow you down.
The heyday of the shield is past, but not because they weren't awesome in melee combat. They are just not effective against the weapons of the modern age.
==Aelryinth
It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
Time for the ninja and sword guy to take the Versatile Weapon feat. :o
==Aelryinth
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It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
To be fair, DR 15 is pretty intense for a CR12. Especially if your party is martial-heavy. But hey, at least he didn't use displacement.
To be fair, DR 15 is pretty intense for a CR12. Especially if your party is martial-heavy. But hey, at least he didn't use displacement.It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
My Vordekai, after teleporting away to heal+buff, came back with displacement, mirror images, and fickle winds. I didn't give him fly and stone skin because I wanted my players to have a chance. They got through with no deaths because of a lucky crit, but without that the fight would have gone on for 2 more rounds and killed 2-3 players or wiped them. Six man party.
That displacement is what made the ninja useless that fight since the party totally blanked on dispelling it.
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I posit that the reason shields vanished from the battlefields was not because of 2h weapons. 2h weapons are generally not hugely viable in formation fighting.
No, the reason shields went away is for the same reason armor eventually went away...the rise of gunpowder weapons, particularly cannons.
==Aelryinth
Ok, now posit again but with historically accurate magic and monsters.
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I posit that the reason shields vanished from the battlefields was not because of 2h weapons. 2h weapons are generally not hugely viable in formation fighting.
Not to focus too much on historical reality, but that's not a remotely accurate claim. Standard practice was to mix different types of weaponry in way that maximized preferred tactics. For example, pikes were never deployed alone. Instead, a pike formation would have a mix of missile troops, polearm troops (possibly greatsword troops), skirmishers, scouts, all of whom operated around a core of pike troops. Sort of like an adventuring group, where you mix and mix what's available to (hopefully) bring about effective combined arms tactics.
In fact, two handed weapons were of primary importance for many types of formation fighting [US Navy Boarding Pike Team]. Pike formations, in particular, dominated European and Asian battlefields for hundreds of years. The pike gradually morphed into the bayonet.
What is Tercio and why did it pwn face?
When I say two handed weapons, I should have clarified that I did not mean spears. I meant things like greatswords, great axes, bardiches, halberds, mauls and the like.
Spears are MADE for formation fighting, the single best weapon for it, and pikes are iconic 2h spears.
I was talking about guys swinging around great hammers and mauls and axes and stuff like in the movies. You can't use those in a packed infantry position, only in skirmish. You'll end up dead if you try it.
==Aelryinth
If I remember correctly in a conflict between a greatsword/axe army and a shield+short sword army they literally man boxed the great weapon fighters in with their shields so they couldn't swing then stabbed inward with the short swords.
When I say two handed weapons, I should have clarified that I did not mean spears. I meant things like greatswords, great axes, bardiches, halberds, mauls and the like.
Spears are MADE for formation fighting, the single best weapon for it, and pikes are iconic 2h spears.
I was talking about guys swinging around great hammers and mauls and axes and stuff like in the movies. You can't use those in a packed infantry position, only in skirmish. You'll end up dead if you try it.
==Aelryinth
You are correct in all things EXCEPT the halberd.
Halberds have a pointy bit at the end. In fact most proper pole arms are spears with a bit of extra.
That said many weapons like two handed swords worked just fine in loose formations. The danger wasn't getting yourself killed, it was usually killing your mate.
If I remember correctly in a conflict between a greatsword/axe army and a shield+short sword army they literally man boxed the great weapon fighters in with their shields so they couldn't swing then stabbed inward with the short swords.
What is romans versus the gauls?
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To be fair, DR 15 is pretty intense for a CR12. Especially if your party is martial-heavy. But hey, at least he didn't use displacement.It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
My Vordekai, after teleporting away to heal+buff, came back with displacement, mirror images, and fickle winds. I didn't give him fly and stone skin because I wanted my players to have a chance. They got through with no deaths because of a lucky crit, but without that the fight would have gone on for 2 more rounds and killed 2-3 players or wiped them. Six man party.
That displacement is what made the ninja useless that fight since the party totally blanked on dispelling it.
Time for ninja to take Shadow strike
Not sure who this Schrondigger is. He was prolly a very nice man but he did not have a famous cat. Schrodinger, OTOH, is well known for having a cat in a box...or is it in the box? Just saying.
But I also think this is something that most players don't want. 4th Edition DnD had much larger hitpoint tables and people didn't like how long the combats could take. I'm afraid the playerbase wants rocket tag, whether they know that they do or not.
I don't think the players necessarily want rocket tag so much as they want relatively fast and dynamic combat. Most players want to be able to fit multiple combat and RP encounters into the length of a typical 4-6 hour session, which means combat can't eat up too much real-world time. Players also generally want to avoid combat becoming static and dull: two guys standing still and trading blows as they slowly whittle each other down will start to get boring after a while.
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HAd a post going and then it got lost. f*~~.
Anyway getting to this quickly. MY original post had more detail but let's get through this.
Straight damage
Winner? Two handed fighting. Every 4 points in strength translates to 1 more point of damage over the one handed weapon. Every 4 points of bab is another 1 damage over the one handed weapon.
Actions
The Sword and Board TWF wins out on this one. HAving more actions always goes to two weapon fighting. Combat Reflexes on a reach weapon, however, does provide more tactical opportunities and can get potentially more attacks per round than two weapon fighting. But, that's highly situational.
Base Investment
Sword and board wins by dint of requiring no investment to make it work. But, that's not saying much as even a little bit of investment makes things much more powerful.
Minor Investment (2 to 3 feats)
Two handed reach here wins out. Raw two handed fighting only gets damage from a bit more investment. But power attack and combat reflexes are two very good feats that can translate to lots of tactical and damaging opportunities for a melee character.
Major investment (4+ feats)
If you're playing the long game than it's a tougher call but I'm going to give this one to sword and board (TWF). Shield MAster, Bashing Finish, Missile Shield and others can make for some powerful mid to high end builds. Of interest is that sword and board ranger's and slayers turn out to be soem of the most dangerous melee fighters by dint of getting early access to shield master and bashing finish.
Cost
Two handed (non reach) wins this. You only ever need one weapon. The other styles require investment into two or more weapons. Even reach works best when you have armor spikes or some other method to work your adjacent squares.
Durability
As you might expect shields are rather resilient soa sunder based character will have a harder time destroying them. They have more hit points than any weapon and typically good hardness as well.
Defense
A dead enemy has 0% chance of hurting you. A live one has 5%. Always. Always always always. The only way around this is if you add miss chances on top of everything.
Likewise, an enemy who can't get to you is also a 0% chance of hurting you.
So who wins? Passive shield or reactive reach?
Giving this oen to reach. Reach can do more than just hurt an enemy, it can also trip, sunder, reposition, it can ruin an opponents momentum and turn a terrible charge upside down. Shields can get impressively good numbers in terms of AC but it's also the least useful form of defense. Positioning and reactive defenses are much more reliable in damage prevention. It also relies on your numbers, rather than your opponents.
Versatility
Again, I'm giving this to two handed reach. It can do everything two handed weapons can with the added benefit of everything reach weapons can do.
So who wins?
I think if you're going for raw numbers in the long term and don't have much need to branch out of combat feats than sword and board TWF is going to serve you better. This is particularly true if you play smart and can manage full attacks whenever possible.
If you're going to do more than combat feats, like spell usage, or simply don't have a lot of feats to spare (such as a paladin) than two handed fighting is for you.
If you want to fight tactically with all the numbers that two handed fighting provides with the situational benefits of more attacks, unpunishable combat maneuvers, and superior control over the field than go with two handed reach weapons.
Time for ninja to take Shadow strikeTo be fair, DR 15 is pretty intense for a CR12. Especially if your party is martial-heavy. But hey, at least he didn't use displacement.It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
My Vordekai, after teleporting away to heal+buff, came back with displacement, mirror images, and fickle winds. I didn't give him fly and stone skin because I wanted my players to have a chance. They got through with no deaths because of a lucky crit, but without that the fight would have gone on for 2 more rounds and killed 2-3 players or wiped them. Six man party.
That displacement is what made the ninja useless that fight since the party totally blanked on dispelling it.
If Vordekai had casted Blur then that wouldn't be a problem. Displacement is not Blur.
While two weapon fighting with the sword and shield looks great on paper, in practice getting off full attacks can often be difficult. The more your group optimizes, the less likely it is that any living critters will be next to you for two rounds.
What is Tercio and why did it pwn face?
It was a pike / gun formation and it pwned because it was invented by SPANIARDS.
Concerning the whole historical accuracy / realism thing and carting big weapons around...
People did carry around huge weapons on their day-to-day affairs at times, actually. I mean, we're talking about claymore-size swords resting against the shoulders of wealthy merchants and stuff. Was it extremely common? No. But they did it.
Moreover, what's more unrealistic than having those weapons around is carrying a two-handed sword on your back. Here, watch this educational video, folks. This smart man talks about longswords and really, really big swords and how to carry them.
No, the reason shields went away is for the same reason armor eventually went away...the rise of gunpowder weapons, particularly cannons.
Thus, shield walls gave way to pike formations, which gave way to lines of musketeers, and armored knights and archers had no more place in this new world then did shield bearers.==Aelryinth
The 'golden age' of the shield ended long before gunpowder. The Hundred Years' War was probably the single most sustained conflict of the later middle ages, and it was fought primarily by armored knights on foot with two-handed weapon, backed by assorted ranged troops.
The effort of carrying a shield around just isn't that rewarded when you're literally wearing a very good shield over your entire body. Fluid combat with a two-handed weapon can also be very effective at blocking and deflecting melee attacks anyhow.
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Also, if someone is wearing a very good shield all over their body you NEED two hands to pretty much bludgeon their armor into their soft tender flesh
Also, if someone is wearing a very good shield all over their body you NEED two hands to pretty much bludgeon their armor into their soft tender flesh
Or to trip/wrestle them down so you can stab through a weak-point or bash their helmet in without them avoiding it...
When I say two handed weapons, I should have clarified that I did not mean spears. I meant things like greatswords, great axes, bardiches, halberds, mauls and the like.
Spears are MADE for formation fighting, the single best weapon for it, and pikes are iconic 2h spears.
I was talking about guys swinging around great hammers and mauls and axes and stuff like in the movies. You can't use those in a packed infantry position, only in skirmish. You'll end up dead if you try it.
==Aelryinth
That's why someone in flanders invented the goedendag. Essentially a greatclub with a pointy spike that could be used as a spear.
With a bit of tactic and the use of the goedendag a Flanders guildsmen army devastated an army of French knights in the battle of the golden spurs.
Also, if someone is wearing a very good shield all over their body you NEED two hands to pretty much bludgeon their armor into their soft tender fleshOr to trip/wrestle them down so you can stab through a weak-point or bash their helmet in without them avoiding it...
If you don't have a shield, how can you be carried home on it?
If you don't have a shield you won't need to be carried home on it, your first strike will send the other person home on the one they brought.
A way to get a shield bonus to AC without wielding a shield is wielding a blocking weapon (mundane property like reach) while fighting defensive.
Examples are the tonfa, the nine section whip and the bo-staff.
Combined with crane wing you get some nice bonuses to AC. Assuming you have 3+ranks in acrobatics you get -2 to hit and +4 dodge bonus to AC and +1 shield bonus to AC
If you add an ability that allows you to trade AC for to hit or damage like reckless abandon or risky striker you are relatively free to juggle your stats in any way you want.
Example: Halfling martial artist 1 (to qualify for crane style) barbarian 4.
Halfling martial artist 1 (to qualify for crane style) barbarian x.
Level 1 (monk): Dodge, Crane style
Level 2: Reckless abandon
Level 3: Risky striker
Level 4: +1 Rage power
Level 5: Power attack
Athletics 3+ ranks
Using a nine-section whip two-handed
Now if you use the combination of above abilities (RAW allowed even if some people will not like it) you get the following:
Hit: -2(-2 fight defensive, -2 Power attack, +2 reckless abandon)
AC: +3(+5 dodge, +1 shield, -2 reckless abandon, -1 risky striker)
Damage: +10 (+6 power attack, +4 risky striker)
That is just the modifiers from the above feats and abilities. All stack but not all have to be used at any given time.
Edit: Missed that the nine-section whip is an exotic weapon and this build is not proficient with it. But he is proficient with the sansetsukon after taking levels in barbarian.
*Cool stuff*
That's a really cool build. I may have to try something like that out.
EDIT: Perhaps a human with Racial Heritage (Halfling), even.
A way to get a shield bonus to AC without wielding a shield is wielding a blocking weapon (mundane property like reach) while fighting defensive.
Examples are the tonfa, the nine section whip and the bo-staff.Combined with crane wing you get some nice bonuses to AC. Assuming you have 3+ranks in acrobatics you get -2 to hit and +4 dodge bonus to AC and +1 shield bonus to AC
If you add an ability that allows you to trade AC for to hit or damage like reckless abandon or risky striker you are relatively free to juggle your stats in any way you want.
Example: Halfling martial artist 1 (to qualify for crane style) barbarian 4.
** spoiler omitted **
Edit: Missed that the nine-section whip is an exotic weapon and this build is not proficient with it. But he is proficient with the sansetsukon after taking levels in barbarian.
problem with using a monk dip is that you lose one in bab so half the gain from crane style(that you only take -2 when figthing defensive) is lost. I think the brawler looks attractive for this trick even if it dosent get a that delicious will save bonus. And you can look at archtypes (mutagen pehaps if you dont like flex) since brawler dosent have aligntment restriktion.
I haven't played with a ton of dm's but I found they get really irritated when they have to roll a 20 to hit u. They will adjust lvl of encounters so there's a chance to hit u, or even ignore ur char and go after easier targets.
On the other hand u do a ton of damage and kill enemies they are like ok onto next encounter.
This leads less to shields. Shieldmaster feat is also worded kinda bad and it's either really awesome or useful depending on ur gm.
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Bad GMs are bad.
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I haven't played with a ton of dm's but I found they get really irritated when they have to roll a 20 to hit u. They will adjust lvl of encounters so there's a chance to hit u, or even ignore ur char and go after easier targets.
Unless it's a recurring villain - that's just the GM being a jerk. Enemies should - 90% of the time - take a swing or two at the guy who's up in their grill first. If they miss horribly - then they might move on.
(This is even more annoying when GMs ignore the high AC naked guy [monk] in front and go after the armored guy in the back [cleric/oracle].)
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If Vordekai had casted Blur then that wouldn't be a problem. Displacement is not Blur.Time for ninja to take Shadow strikeTo be fair, DR 15 is pretty intense for a CR12. Especially if your party is martial-heavy. But hey, at least he didn't use displacement.It's also worth noting 2HF has an advantage vs DR in situations where it cant be bypassed.
Vordekai's DR 15/Bldg+magic absolutely wrecked most of my players. The archer, Ranger's companion, swordsman, and ninja tickled or did nothing. Fortunately the barb with the random +1 heavy club he found manged to crit at the right moment.
Even if he didn't have the club that barb would've done consistent damage, but not enough to carry the party. The swordsman and ninja were doing practically nil since 1 handed damage couldn't overcome, even with dex to damage.
My Vordekai, after teleporting away to heal+buff, came back with displacement, mirror images, and fickle winds. I didn't give him fly and stone skin because I wanted my players to have a chance. They got through with no deaths because of a lucky crit, but without that the fight would have gone on for 2 more rounds and killed 2-3 players or wiped them. Six man party.
That displacement is what made the ninja useless that fight since the party totally blanked on dispelling it.
I don't see why it made the ninja worse than any of the others, everyone suffers the 50% miss chance but the ninja still should have gotten SA on the attacks that hit.
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I haven't played with a ton of dm's but I found they get really irritated when they have to roll a 20 to hit u. They will adjust lvl of encounters so there's a chance to hit u, or even ignore ur char and go after easier targets.
On the other hand u do a ton of damage and kill enemies they are like ok onto next encounter.
This leads less to shields. Shieldmaster feat is also worded kinda bad and it's either really awesome or useful depending on ur gm.
tell your GM to screw off? but if he is focusing on your character, the rest of your party is fine, ergo, you are tanking :P
Not sure who this Schrondigger is. He was prolly a very nice man but he did not have a famous cat. Schrodinger, OTOH, is well known for having a cat in a box...or is it in the box? Just saying.
Schrondigger is obviously Schrodinger's Schrodinger. You never know if it contains a typo until you actually read it.
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(...) or even ignore ur char and go after easier targets. (...)
Well... This one makes perfect sense, for me. If an enemy who realizes he has no chance of hitting you, why wouldn't he strike at a different target and then deal with you when you're alone?
A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.
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A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.
That's how it should work. (Assuming the enemy was reasonably intelligent.) But for the next combat, the new enemy should take those same couple swings against him.
Also - one can certainly overdo the defense builds. One's offense should remain respectable.
A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.That's how it should work. (Assuming the enemy was reasonably intelligent.) But for the next combat, the new enemy should take those same couple swings against him.
Also - one can certainly overdo the defense builds. One's offense should remain respectable.
Unless said next enemy has been made aware of the party's capabilities somehow.
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Unless said next enemy has been made aware of the party's capabilities somehow.A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.That's how it should work. (Assuming the enemy was reasonably intelligent.) But for the next combat, the new enemy should take those same couple swings against him.
Also - one can certainly overdo the defense builds. One's offense should remain respectable.
True (hence my earlier mention of recurring villains). Though I've heard tell of some tanky characters who buy a pair of hats of disguise to continually switch appearances with other party members for just this reason. :P
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Just ignore people with high AC, usually it means they spent so much gold on having a high ac, they don't do enough damage on the battlefield. Well at least when I run intelligent monsters as a dm, that what I do.
Meanwhile two-handed guy has a low ac, can get hit and he hit very hard, so usually get quickly the monster attention without much effort.
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Just ignore people with high AC, usually it means they spent so much gold on having a high ac, they don't do enough damage on the battlefield. Well at least when I run intelligent monsters as a dm, that what I do.
Meanwhile two-handed guy has a low ac, can get hit and he hit very hard, so usually get quickly the monster attention without much effort.
...and someone didn't just read the last dozen posts.
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I did, simply stating if a monster try to hit high AC guy once or twice, as an intelligent monster and he is not successful...why bother? Of course, I understand people likes the idea of having a Tank in a party but heh, unless you have a special ability to prevent the monster from going to attack somebody else, they will go attack your buddies.
A few weeks ago, one of my player brought in a defense-focused character with really high AC... One of the enemies rolled an 16 and 18 and still couldn't hit him... But he realized the guy with a shield could only cause minor damage, so he moved on and started attacking the other PCs, who were easier to hit and could hit harder.That's how it should work. (Assuming the enemy was reasonably intelligent.) But for the next combat, the new enemy should take those same couple swings against him.
Also - one can certainly overdo the defense builds. One's offense should remain respectable.
If my GM did that I'd give my PC shield of swings and start fighting defensively when the enemy focuses me, then call out metagaming if the enemy does not move to the next pc after some attacks.