So, I know a guy who has been RPing for a long time and he is certain that Dex to Damage is OP. He believes that spending three feats for it is too cheap and that going Dex is far better than a Strength character is every way. He has played the core for a long time and believes that only Mythic characters should be able to get Dex to Damage without using a weapon enchantment. He uses Dex to Damage as an example of how the ACG is OP and he bans it from his games.
Now, I've run a few numbers and I am certain that two handing with a strength weapon is better. Or at least on par with Dex to damage. It's cheaper, it deals more damage, the saved feats can compete with the bonuses you get from going Dex, and the Dexterity a Dex character gets limits tier armor choices which allows a lower Dex character to keep up The problem is that I don't want to get into a straight math battle with the guy because it would just be two people optimizing characters to prove points .
Can anyone here help me comeup with a way to explain things?
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He's arguing numbers. The only way to convince him otherwise is show him the numbers. They're the entire crux of the issue.
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It is not just about DPR.
Using these feats Dex becomes the only attribute to ever supply bonuses to AC, to hit and to damage simultaneously.
I am not saying that it is OP.
I am not saying that it is not OP.
I am only saying that there are other considerations besides DPR.
A +1 Weapon enchantment is far cheaper than 3 feats outside of the first few levels.
I say for the amount of feats you need for it it's a fine way to do it. For a "normal class" non-human three feats means you don't have it till lv5, and you have no other feats. So to get it faster you need to dip or be human, and it's still using your feats.
The thing is that this is not just dex to damage...this is dex to damage in a highly restricted manner that prevents TWF without jumping through a ton of hoops.
That is the common thread of all the dex to damage feats. In this case, they restrict you to 1 handed weapons (I know that they could restrict it more directly...but they tried that with dervish dance, and we still saw munchkins try to argue that not only were unarmed strikes allow, but the dex to damage applied to them too).
You can possibly do it with a few tricks like sawtoothed sabers... but that requires an exotic weapon feat, and you need to rely upon extremely specific weapons that you are not exactly going to find in a random dragon's hoard. And what if you come up against DR/Bludgeoning?
They also tried making it financially painful with agile weapons (since weapon enhancements are a premium for TWF).
So overall- you have characters wielding weapons in 1 hand and not doing TWF. Only 1x stat and power attack. That is an extremely weak style. A huge part of the swashbuckler class is devoted to making that style on par with 2 handing.
If this stuff could apply to daggers with just a pair of feats, then there would be more room to argue. Those are common weapons that show up all the time. They are also highly versatile since they allow throwing or concealment.
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Dex build is totally viable. I would note though that players who min max - taking str6 just becuz "points, man!" - I will nerf as a gm. Min 10 str, or you get dmg penalties anyway (how do you swing that rapier around so fast if you can barely hold it steady? Or punch through chainmail when you can barely carry your backpack?). Also remember, Str fighters tend to take a 12 or 14 dex too, and while less mobile, they're also less vulnerable to combat maneuvers. That dex warrior is gonna feel pretty useless when his weapon gets lopped in half, or he gets crushed into a corner where he can't use his dex for anything. That's not to say that Dex is useless- its good - but 3 or 4 feats to compare with a warrior? unless your gm is allowing for 2 bonus feats per character, the STR fighter outshines him.
This also doesn't take into account what power attack can do for damage boosting, in addition to the lesser hp dexbuilds tend toward. If dual wield Dex monk goes toe to toe with STR/Con two handed warrior in heavy plate, The warrior only needs to hit once or twice, while the monk can do the same and still not put the warrior down.
Also not taking into account a shield/heavy armor str character who puts some feats into being defensive; Dex guy can do what he likes, the tank will just block everything he's dishing out, and shield bash him to death (and at later levels, will retain all his ac, suffering no penalties for doing so).
The only thing Dex build is entirely superior for is mobility. If they're losing an even fight, they can de-commit. Run away, fight another day. But gear can eliminate that, or mitigate that advantage. (boots of constant effect: expeditous retreat, going for as low as 6k gold. Chase, improved overrun/chargethrough. Hit him every time he tries to get up. He better have an awesome acrobatics, because your CMD as a fighter is better than his)
Running away is usually a mainly magical endavour. But yes, if you are lightly armoured and the foe uses heavy, you have a speed advantage that can be leveraged into escape.
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Strength:
Carry Capacity
Melee attacks rolls
Melee damage
Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB)
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Climb
Swim
Dexterity (with a dex to damage build):
Melee attack rolls
Melee damage
Initiative modifier
Ranged attack rolls
Armor Class
Reflex save
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Acrobatics
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Fly
Ride
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
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One thing I've learned as an adult s that almost nobody with a strong opinion is ever swayed by logical discourse. It doesn't matter if you're discussing what classes are OP, whether drugs should be legal, or if Hillary Swank is or is not attractive...you can formulate a perfect argument, supplemented by all the data supporting your argument and nullifying theirs that you want...people are by nature pigheaded, and 99% will ignore everything you said and just root further into their original belief.
Move on, don't waste your time, and spend your energy on something that matters.
"I disagree," should be sufficient.
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Yes - it is a bit OP.
It's mainly OP for TWF builds with sawtoothed sabres.
The DPR ends up being similar to a strength build - but the dex build gets tons of secondary advantages. (AC / Initiative / Reflex / far more skill boosts etc) Each is worth several feats - Improved Initiative / Lightning Reflexes etc will each give far less benefit than the difference in dex score between a strength build and a dex build.
The dex build can dump strength entirely while strength builds still need a dex of 16 to have equal AC at middling levels - and a dex of 22 at higher levels once you can grab Celestial Plate. It's unlikely a strength build can get their dex that high without some significant sacrifices/costs.
The Dex based fighters get ac and attack with only one stat argument doesn't work for me, strenght based fighters can have better armor. Dex based pc's can move faster but two handed strength get higher damage bonus, you aren't a munchkin till you finally get your main stat to damage and it doesn't cost extra feats to pull of. Dex based works for some characters but it isn't OP, it just open up more options for viable melee characters.
How do you get dex to damage with two weapons? Beyond a four level dip in that swashbuckler archetype, but then you could have gotten better things with that.
Also, I don't think there really is a true armor advantage. Maybe two points.
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How do you get dex to damage with two weapons? Beyond a four level dip in that swashbuckler archetype, but then you could have gotten better things with that.
Also, I don't think there really is a true armor advantage. Maybe two points.
It only takes a 1 level dip in swashbuckler - and since you also grab panache and their best deeds - it's an amazing dip anyway. (The class is okay - but it's probably the best 1 level dip in the game even without wanting to go TWF dex to damage.)
And there is an armor advantage of several points vs strength builds. As I pointed out above.
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if you enforce carrying capacity strength 6 is it's own punishment
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Yeah, he's totally wrong. 2 handed power attacking vs 1 handed dex... Myself 3 feats for it is a rip off. I'd say weapon finesse and a feat for damage. At least the feats needed are useful.
You can start off by showing him that it's worth a whole +1 enchant (sgile). Then if he thinks it's too much for one stat, show him an oracle that uses cha for AC, CMB, all saves, initiative and spells... If anything dex seems a bit weak next to cha.
Better yet, ask HIM to make what HE thinks is an OP dex character. Then crush it with the same level/wealth str character.
Dex to hit/damage don't threaten str characters but allow characters that need other stats to contribute in combat. Dps is STILL with 2 handed people, dex just some others not suck. It's nice that not everyone that picks up a weapon MUST look like a Russian body builder, especially when using something like a rapier...
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Yeah, he's totally wrong. 2 handed power attacking vs 1 handed dex... Myself 3 feats for it is a rip off. I'd say weapon finesse and a feat for damage. At least the feats needed are useful.
You're right... it's the TWF with dex to damage that's OP. And that's more than Agile ever gives you - as it's full dex to damage vs 1/2 for the offhand.
How do you get dex to damage with two weapons? Beyond a four level dip in that swashbuckler archetype, but then you could have gotten better things with that.
Also, I don't think there really is a true armor advantage. Maybe two points.
It only takes a 1 level dip in swashbuckler - and since you also grab panache and their best deeds - it's an amazing dip anyway. (The class is okay - but it's probably the best 1 level dip in the game even without wanting to go TWF dex to damage.)
And there is an armor advantage of several points vs strength builds. As I pointed out above.
Theoretically, you could TWF with Slashing Grace (not Dervish Dance though, free hand must be empty), but you'd be dealing with a massive -4 or more penalty to your attack rolls to do so, as Slashing Grace only works on 1 handed weapons. Furthermore, you'll still be dealing less damage than the 2HF, especially when you can't full attack or the 2HF gets extra attacks, such as from haste. 2 big attacks at max BAB will often out-DPR 3 small attacks at BAB-4. That said, at high levels with everything working, you can eventually reach parity, unlike a regular Dex to Damage build, that pretty much never will without access to class features like Precise strike to make up the difference.
Alternatively, you could spend money for agile weapons, but that is money a 2HF could be spending on his armor, or even a shield, both of which cost half as much as a weapon, and further negating any difference between the 2 of them.
That doesn't even get into the issue of feat expenditure, where not only do you have to spend tons more feats becoming halfway competent, but you also have to wait a long time in game just to reach that level of competence. A 2HF just needs Power Attack and he's good. You? Weapon Finesse, possibly Weapon Focus, said Dex to damage ability, TWF and it's entire chain, Double Slice, etc. Even for a human, you have a long way to go. And those levels where you don't work at all can be downright agonizing.
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Theoretically, you could TWF with Slashing Grace (not Dervish Dance though, free hand must be empty), but you'd be dealing with a massive -4 or more penalty to your attack rolls to do so, as Slashing Grace only works on 1 handed weapons.How do you get dex to damage with two weapons? Beyond a four level dip in that swashbuckler archetype, but then you could have gotten better things with that.
Also, I don't think there really is a true armor advantage. Maybe two points.
It only takes a 1 level dip in swashbuckler - and since you also grab panache and their best deeds - it's an amazing dip anyway. (The class is okay - but it's probably the best 1 level dip in the game even without wanting to go TWF dex to damage.)
And there is an armor advantage of several points vs strength builds. As I pointed out above.
That's why you'd use Sawtoothed Sabres. It's 1-handed weapon with no extra penalty for TWF with.
That's why you'd use Sawtoothed Sabres. It's 1-handed weapon with no extra penalty for TWF with.Theoretically, you could TWF with Slashing Grace (not Dervish Dance though, free hand must be empty), but you'd be dealing with a massive -4 or more penalty to your attack rolls to do so, as Slashing Grace only works on 1 handed weapons.How do you get dex to damage with two weapons? Beyond a four level dip in that swashbuckler archetype, but then you could have gotten better things with that.
Also, I don't think there really is a true armor advantage. Maybe two points.
It only takes a 1 level dip in swashbuckler - and since you also grab panache and their best deeds - it's an amazing dip anyway. (The class is okay - but it's probably the best 1 level dip in the game even without wanting to go TWF dex to damage.)
And there is an armor advantage of several points vs strength builds. As I pointed out above.
So the Sawtooth Sabre is classified as a light weapon when TWFing. That's interesting to note. I saw a lot of people mentioning it before but I never knew why until now. Nice.
Theoretically, you could even use it for THF whenever yo had the opportunity. Very nice.
Thanks for the heads up! Still though, this speaks to the other point I mentioned about needing to spend limited resources (feats or cash) in order to reach parity with a 2HF, to say nothing of the other inherent problems with TWFing vs 2HFing.
But now I want to build a Slashing Grace TWF with Sawtooth Sabres!
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Admittedly, this feat requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency to pull off, so that's five feats to TWF with dex to damage, and I believe you STILL have to take Double Slice for this build. That doesn't strike me as over the top. Sixish feats oughta be something good.
Debatable on needing Double Slice to get full dex damage on the off-hand. (I lean towards yes - but there's an argument for either interpretation.) And I don't think that Weapon Focus can be considered as part of the requirements since every martial build ever takes it.
(And technically you don't take the Weapon Finesse feat - you get Swashbuckler's Finesse instead. :P)
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There's also the Deadly Agility feat and Double weapon finesse abilities if your GM allows such variant rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats
Toss a double blade sword in there, and you're doing dex damage with a d8 19-20 crit weapon, noting that deadly agility means your offhand weapons get the full damage bonus from dex.
Of course, now you're looking at 5 feats just to match that str fighter's two handed weapon: two weapon fighting, exotic weapon, weapon finesse, double weapon finesse, deadly agility. Doable? If you're a human with some bonus feats from your class. Equal? Not when the fighter put feats into weapon spec, furious focus, power attack, weapon focus, and +1 feat wherever the heck he likes. Not in damage dealing.
As for versatilty? Absolutely superior. Dex builds often include classes that have 50-150% more skills than a str fighter, skills which will often allow you to manipulate scenarios to your favor. Use magic device? Traps? That duel with the 2h fighter will end quickly when you drop a fear scroll on him, or he's entangled in your acid trap, or heck - if he's also fighting 6 guards who you convinced to help you "apprehend the villain responsible for the death of innocent babies!"
There's also the Deadly Agility feat and Double weapon finesse abilities if your GM allows such variant rules: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats
Toss a double blade sword in there, and you're doing dex damage with a d8 19-20 crit weapon, noting that deadly agility means your offhand weapons get the full damage bonus from dex.
Of course, now you're looking at 5 feats just to match that str fighter's two handed weapon: two weapon fighting, exotic weapon, weapon finesse, double weapon finesse, deadly agility. Doable? If you're a human with some bonus feats from your class. Equal? Not when the fighter put feats into weapon spec, furious focus, power attack, weapon focus, and +1 feat wherever the heck he likes. Not in damage dealing.
As for versatilty? Absolutely superior. Dex builds often include classes that have 50-150% more skills than a str fighter, skills which will often allow you to manipulate scenarios to your favor. Use magic device? Traps? That duel with the 2h fighter will end quickly when you drop a fear scroll on him, or he's entangled in your acid trap, or heck - if he's also fighting 6 guards who you convinced to help you "apprehend the villain responsible for the death of innocent babies!"
To be fair, skills have nothing to do with dexterity and everything to do with base skill levels and intelligence. The Swashbuckler has inherently more skills than the fighter because it wasn't adhering to outdated design theory that felt 2+int was a good baseline instead of 4+int, but I am forced to point out there's no reason a high-intelligence 2-handed weapon Eldritch Guardian fighter with Pragmatic Activator and Student of Philosophy traits can't do the same things to you. Maybe even better.
Dex does get most of the fun skills, though. Can't beat acrobatics and sleight of hand for shenanigans.
Dex has nothing to do with skills - except that most pure fighter/ caster classes get 2 or 4 skillpoints (+int) per level, while many dex builds incorporate ranger, rogue, bard, or monk, which get 6 - 8 points per level. True, magey hybrid classes are uber too, but that's not the argument. The argument is that Dex builds are superior to STR builds in every way; I argue that it's superior in versatility, but not in raw damage, CMB/CMD, and AC (dodge means jack if you lose your dex from being prone, or hampered in some way, which a number of combat maneuvers can cause)
Though the improved steal cmb is funny. While you fight the dex guy, he steals and drinks your potions. not cool
To address common arguments I've seen and made in favor of Dex to damage being OP;
Dex has less damage potential than Str but honestly I don't think the difference is too big. Its not like the damage is poor and there are enough ways to buff dex. Strength has more ways to get buffed but it doesn't mean that there are suddenly zero ways to buff dex.
Str is important for Carrying Capacity but in my experience nobody tracks weight so its not that big of a loss, especially if you have a mage on the team.
I see the AC argument for martials but when I ran a dervish magus, spells went a long way to giving me the best AC in the party with Mirror Image on top of that so my experiences differ on that front. Adding to that, I was also the only one in the party aside from the rogue that could avoid touch attacks
Having a high initiative is just really good.
Personally I think dex to damage is OP depending on the class. There are just too many benefits and carrying capacity and lower damage are not a big enough downside considering that the money you save on armor can be spent mitigating those downsides very easily. If I had my way I'd do away with Keen and Improved Critical and give dex feats that increased crit ranges and crit multipliers in increments of 1 because it seems like such linear design to just replace one stat with another. What I wound up doing though was just allow some third party dex to damage along with third party strength-based feats (as well as condensing some common combat feats to make room to take these feats). Dex to damage gets way less OP if you can do OP things with strength too and it has the added benefit of buffing martials to late level playability. So basically I think just giving handouts to dex without giving Str a few more bones is overpowered.
I would like to see actual numbers though. Any numbers I've seen before revolved around DPR which is not the end-all be-all of successful combat so I was not impressed.
Some notes, nothing outside of the official paizo PRD is allowed and the ACG is not allowed in this mans games.
I don't really want to push the point with math because he is a lot older and the GM. I dot think it is worth a huge math off, especially since he is about as pigheaded as they come. I may just ask him to make a 3/6/12/16/20 level fighter and match each of them with my own. See if I can make it seem like a game and not a challenge
The crit ranges and multipliers option is one I've seen suggested before, and I still hate the notion because, well, there's no nice way to put this; it's a luck build. Those are terrible options. It's fun for some people, but it's really not that much fun if you're going for a dexterity build and investing feats and such to be rewarded with...explosive damage happening if you roll the right number and not much at all happening if you don't, so you either get lucky and land a ton of crits or you don't and wonder why the hell you're not playing a strength class, which gets consistently better results than you when you're not getting crits and similarly powerful results when both of you do.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, finesse builds cannot answer the 3:1 power attack ratio that two-handed builds take full advantage of. Finesse builds also become less effective when increasing their size while sizing up has only benefits for strength builds. Yes, there are ways to buff both, but for buffing dexterity it's pretty much just Cat's Grace, which doesn't stack with your belt of dexterity, while strength has belts/bull's strength, Enlarge Person, and Rage in its corner. You have not known terror or what damage looks like until an enlarged Barbarian with Greater Rage power attacks you with a falchion and gets a critical.
It's also not really a handout since two-handed fighting is built into the game as something anyone can do whenever they want while you need to have three feats or two feats and a level in Swashbuckler/Daring Champion to get Fencing Grace online and Slashing Grace just plain doesn't work for anyone but Swashbucklers/Daring Champions. That's a lot of feats or a mandatory dip. That's not cheap.
I wouldn't call crit manipulation that much of a luck build mainly because most dex build's I've gone through have been two weapon fighters or otherwise focusing on number of attacks as opposed to power making crits happen very frequently. For one handed builds, particularly if you're not a Magus this is less so but I can't say that I was seeing infrequent crits when I optimized for it there either. But it is an inferior method but my point with crit range manipulation wasn't to be equivalent to dex to damage but really short on design space. Alternatively I'd also say that Dex should have some options to get extra attacks with one hand. I think it's more flavorful and leaves open some design space depending on how it's worded and works in conjunction with crit manipulation. Or give dex builds some bleed damage options, just something other than just adding some numbers to damage rolls.
As for power attack, strength boosts and size changing; The same thought applies for me. If the goal is to let dex builds do the same thing as strength (big damage) then okay then. I allow the generic dex to damage feat from Path of War so people can just do that if they want to. However that argument was that Dex to damage builds I've played never lacked damage. If I were running strength builds instead I'd be doing more damage but enemies were still dying fast enough. Besides that being ultra good at damage never helped the Fighter as a class so I'd take the diverse benefits of Dex over the linear benefits of Str.
That said I also don't like Dervish Dance, and Fencing/Slashing Grace because I think being taxed two feats for dex to damage is enough of a cost. Just use Weapon Finesse and Improved Weapon finesse and be done with it. I know this runs contrary to my arguements but I think Dex to Damage is OP. I don't think its THAT OP.
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One thing I've learned as an adult s that almost nobody with a strong opinion is ever swayed by logical discourse. It doesn't matter if you're discussing what classes are OP, whether drugs should be legal, or if Hillary Swank is or is not attractive...you can formulate a perfect argument, supplemented by all the data supporting your argument and nullifying theirs that you want...people are by nature pigheaded, and 99% will ignore everything you said and just root further into their original belief.
Move on, don't waste your time, and spend your energy on something that matters.
"I disagree," should be sufficient.
Coincidentally, this is probably the first post you've posted that I fully agree with.:P
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Personally I dislike DEX-to-damage and might discourage this approach when I GM, but I don't think it's Over Powered. A basic Strength-based two-handed fighter will probably be more combat effective than all but a few niche DEX-based builds. TWF with paired sawtooth sabres, I'm looking at you. I'm just fine with a reasonably strong (10+ or 13+) character who wishes to apply DEX-to-Damage instead of Strength-to-damage. What I can't countenance is dumping Strength down to 7 and claiming to be an effective melee combatant, unless you're a bunny. Doing so violates my personal suspension of disbelief more than the existence of fire breathing dragons and magic: it feels too much like an exploit.
Edit: @Nicos below. That's exactly how I'll likely handle it, if it comes up. Thanks for the suggestion.
To be fair, ability score dumping is an artifact of point buy systems that don't give enough to make an all rounder. There's a strong correlation between the point buy system and the need for these sorts of feats.
His reasoning is that Dexterity is the best stat in the game and effects too many things to be allowed to be easily applied to damage early game.
AKA: That the two feats are worth the Touch AC, Initiative, Reflex Saves, and Dex skills boost. I don't think this is the case, either early game or later on. However, they might be...I just don't think they are meaningful compared to Power Attack and the 1/2 bonus to damage from two handing.
Something I rarely see brought up in this discussion is the fact that tying so many things to our email stating is a double edged sword. Sure, it makes it easier to pump that one stat, but if anything happens happens penalize that stat, well it's that much worse than than it would otherwise be.
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Personally I dislike DEX-to-damage and might discourage this approach when I GM, but I don't think it's Over Powered. A basic Strength-based two-handed fighter will probably be more combat effective than all but a few niche DEX-based builds. TWF with paired sawtooth sabres, I'm looking at you. I'm just fine with a reasonably strong (10+ or 13+) character who wishes to apply DEX-to-Damage instead of Strength-to-damage. What I can't countenance is dumping Strength down to 7 and claiming to be an effective melee combatant, unless you're a bunny. Doing so violates my personal suspension of disbelief more than the existence of fire breathing dragons and magic: it feels too much like an exploit.
Edit: @Nicos below. That's exactly how I'll likely handle it, if it comes up. Thanks for the suggestion.
Really? You can't imagine the old, physically weak, venerable master master kicking the crap out of the strong young student because the master uses precise strikes and knows how to move better?
Strength:
Carry Capacity
Melee attacks rolls
Melee damage
Combat Maneuver Bonus (CMB)
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Climb
Swim
Dexterity (with a dex to damage build):
Melee attack rolls
Melee damage
Initiative modifier
Ranged attack rolls
Armor Class
Reflex save
Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD)
Acrobatics
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Fly
Ride
Sleight of Hand
Stealth
-2 feats
Yeah so it takes you until 3rd level to completely dominate. Still not sure that's really balanced. Power Attack also requires a +1 BAB which means 3/4 BAB classes can't get it until 3rd level anyway.
Not only that, but use an Aldori Dueling Sword and add 2-handed Power Attack damage as well as DEX to damage.
Skills do matter regardless of skill points. Every skill there except Disable Device and Sleight of Hand is usable untrained. So assuming zero skill points, DEX wins by a LARGE margin.
Where are the feats that allow STR to AC and intuitive?
I said it when Dervish Dance was the only way: Being able to add DEX to Damage is EXTREMELY powerful. It's much more effective than STR builds for more reasons than just DPR.
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Yeah so it takes you until 3rd level to completely dominate. Still not sure that's really balanced. Power Attack also requires a +1 BAB which means 3/4 BAB classes can't get it until 3rd level anyway.Not only that, but use an Aldori Dueling Sword and add 2-handed Power Attack damage as well as DEX to damage.
Erhm, I believe you cannot wield a weapon in two-hands with Slashing Grace and still get Dex-to-damage. As far as I know, the only way to get Power Attack two-handed bonus with Dex to damage is Agile and even then, you cannot get 1.5 times Dex to damage.
EDIT: I don't see Dex to damage as an issue, unlike many people in the thread. In-terms of making a character that deals massive DPR and can survive combat, there is a reason even the best optimizers pick up a ranged weapon or go strength.
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You can't imagine the old, physically weak, venerable master master kicking the crap out of the strong young student because the master uses precise strikes and knows how to move better?
I can easily imagine it, but I would assume in game terms the master is much higher level than the student.
The problem is not that the lower strength can't be compensated for, it's that it has no impact at all. If you had to take the -2 that comes with a Strength of 7, but could still add your dexterity bonus, that would allow effective agile fighters but discourage stat dumping.
Some notes, nothing outside of the official paizo PRD is allowed and the ACG is not allowed in this mans games.
I don't really want to push the point with math because he is a lot older and the GM. I dot think it is worth a huge math off, especially since he is about as pigheaded as they come. I may just ask him to make a 3/6/12/16/20 level fighter and match each of them with my own. See if I can make it seem like a game and not a challenge
If it's limited to PRD and no ACG, where are the dex to damage options coming in?
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How about making charisma penalties apply to STR attacks, and int too, to stop stat dumping for fighters? ;)
Oh maybe we should have STR penalties apply to spell DC's for wizards.
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If it's limited to PRD and no ACG, where are the dex to damage options coming in?Some notes, nothing outside of the official paizo PRD is allowed and the ACG is not allowed in this mans games.
I don't really want to push the point with math because he is a lot older and the GM. I dot think it is worth a huge math off, especially since he is about as pigheaded as they come. I may just ask him to make a 3/6/12/16/20 level fighter and match each of them with my own. See if I can make it seem like a game and not a challenge
I think part of the reason ACG is banned is because it has the Dex to Damage options, thus it's an over powered book and is banned.