So I've been running this game, and I'm about halfway through adventure 3. There are 6 PCs, and while everyone has a firm grasp on the rules, nobody's particularly insanely optimized. However, fights are a cakewalk for the party to the point where it's causing us to collectively agree that something has to be done.
Usually for games with 5 or 6 players I just slap the advanced template on everything if it's written for 4, but it's not so much about the numbers - mythic powers that let the PCs go super hard in terms of action economy from the getgo just mean that enemies don't have time to respond. Has anyone had success with cranking the difficulty while leaving the current schema of mythic rules intact?
There is a thread on here with Scorpion's improved creatures that is a great help as these creatures are much more effective.
I have used those, doubled all hp(for important creatures)and increased the number of Mooks by at least 50% and either added the advanced template (demons) or a couple of class levels. I managed to make the end of book 3 challenging doing this. The party came close to losing the last battle against Jerribeth as I had worn their resources down through the hole Ivory sanctum and they had almost no mythic points left when they thought her and Skulgrym who had survived his earlier appearance.
I also made Worms that Walk immune to Smite Evil which helped a lot.
I have also stopped mythic characters getting extra standard actions and made the mythic caster abilities standard rather than swift actions so they have to use metamagic to get more than 1 spell off a round. Without that I would probably double the number of mooks and triple the boss hitpoints (I may have to triple hit points anyway soon).
Also I give pretty much all bosses the mythic ability to act on Initiative and Initiative -20 to help with the action economy
While my experience is limited to book 3 at this point - keep the party underleveled and stack encounters within a single day so the party loses resources.
As others have pointed out, the sandbox part of book 3 with its one encounter per day format is not challenging even if the CR of the foe is party level or party level +1 or 2.
With a party of six, they should be a little bit behind the xp curve to begin with. So if they are a level or two below where the module expects, the CR of the foes is a little better skewed. For example, that solo vrock may not do too much damage, but if it uses a smite, burns a spell or two, a channel (pesky spores), and a couple mythic points, that is a good thing.
With respect to stacking encounters, I have had success with running two "random" encounters on a day that the party is going to enter a set piece encounter (Family Crypt, Lost Fane, Wintersun hall, etc.). This means that by the time they face the BBEG of the set piece encounter (Skulgrym, Maharvek, the summoner, etc.), they don't have unlimited resources and have to work a little harder.
While my experience is limited to book 3 at this point - keep the party underleveled and stack encounters within a single day so the party loses resources.
As others have pointed out, the sandbox part of book 3 with its one encounter per day format is not challenging even if the CR of the foe is party level or party level +1 or 2.
With a party of six, they should be a little bit behind the xp curve to begin with. So if they are a level or two below where the module expects, the CR of the foes is a little better skewed. For example, that solo vrock may not do too much damage, but if it uses a smite, burns a spell or two, a channel (pesky spores), and a couple mythic points, that is a good thing.
With respect to stacking encounters, I have had success with running two "random" encounters on a day that the party is going to enter a set piece encounter (Family Crypt, Lost Fane, Wintersun hall, etc.). This means that by the time they face the BBEG of the set piece encounter (Skulgrym, Maharvek, the summoner, etc.), they don't have unlimited resources and have to work a little harder.
About the random encounters, are you using the list from book 2?
The best way I have found to challange groups is to hit them with multiple difficult fights. The end of Book 3 was challanging as I had the them clear the Ivory Sanctum in a single go and they expended most of their effort on Xanthir Vang, and then had to fight Jerribeth , which pushed them.
Anytime a Mythic party can Nova and spend mythic points in profusion they are very hard to challange
In book 3, I am using the list on page 82 (I think) that goes with the exploration of hexes.
Thus, for example, when they did the Family crypt, they got a bebilith in the morning, I rolled a vrock on the encounter table (well, guess what one fled from the Citadel with 4 brimoraks, so...) a vrock and 4 brimoraks as encounter 2, and then did the Family Crypt and fought skulgrym. Party was level 8.
On the way to the Wintersun barbarians I rolled the Coven encounter on the table. The coven is all about undead, so I put a few skeleton and zombie swarms outside a canyon, then they fought the coven in the canyon, then 2 drocha swarms came to eat the corpses of the hags, and then some will o wisps (which are tied to the coven) on the way out of the canyon. No set piece here, but still 3-4 good encounters. Again level 8.
The day they did wintersun hall - I rolled a derakni, so a derakni with vescavor swarm, then the hall. Again level 8.
The day they did the lost fane, I put a vrock in the morning, 2 warped ones near the fane, then the fane. Level 9 here.
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Clinton Boomer made a fantastic monster that'll be a doozy of a random encounter in book 3! The Mountainous Feaster!
As for upping the difficulty for a 6 player party I am currently in book 2 and I add 50% extra minions and maximize hit points. For named NPCs I reserve the right to double or triple hit points, especially if they're single for encounters. I use the demon's summon ability before combat and string encounters together.
So far they don't exactly steamroll every encounter, but they can dish a ton of damage. I outright killed the dwarven barbarin/champion with Soltengrebbe (hit with every attack in the full attack using Scorpi0n_mjd's version with the giant simple template added (see the obituary thread).
And as always "Take advantage of stupidity."
--Vrock the House!
You can throw these nasties at them:
Half fiend half red dragon Minotaur grave knight
Fiendish gelatinous cube
Fiendish black pudding
Half red dragon corrupted unicorn
Several dretch cultists and succubus controlled by intellect devourers
Use the Troop Rule from Reign of Winter. Sent a Troop of Demons against them. Given this is basically a medium-or-larger-creature-swarm that does auto-damage (no need to roll to hit) and has other nasty abilities... well, I suspect the Troop would likely leave the party scrambling. Especially if there's several Troops - the first encounter in Book 5 of RoW was four or five Troops.
There's various threads on the RoW subforum on crafting your own Troop, and a Blog for RoW that shows one of them.
Vampire half fiend red dragon might be a good way to spice things up.
I love the troop idea and will work on building a few appropriate troops to toss at the group. It always seems to me that the default idea of 4 PCs leaves every encounter a little on the weak side.
Sometimes more mooks on the table are enough to divide the party's attention and extend the battle. I will always increase the HP of boss types to be maximum. On final bosses that number may be doubled, particularly if they are without lackeys.
Add a few combat maneuvers - remember a tripped hero is a hero that cannot attack and draws AoOs when trying to get up.
In addition to all the great advice already brought up, here are a few changes others have made in similar threads and discussions, season to taste:
Nerf Mythic Power Attack: it's generally thought that upping the base damage bonus is more than enough, but then they give you two bonuses on top of that.
Limit Mythic Power: I've seen different methods described for this, but the one I saw most was that you get 2+tier mythic, and you only restore 1d4+1 mythic per day.
Mythic Spellcasting as a standard action: this was mentioned upthread, but it's often recommended that the powers that let casters get a free spell for one mythic be made a standard action. Also, it cannot be used to cast a spell with cast time longer than a standard action.
Remove Foebiter: I never saw this in my campaign, but based on what I've heard, the Legendary Item ability Foebiter destroys everything and should be avoided.
There were many, many others, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head. Fleet charge is another ability that causes issues, but I don't remember any of the recommended fixes. Maybe making it a move action?
All the above changes are ones that would be made player-side, so make sure you discuss with them before implementing, so you know which they support and which they don't and can adjust accordingly. That being said, based on stories I've heard, and somewhat on my own experience (my group loved the OP feel, so YMMV), you will need at least some of these changes before things go really, really over the top.
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I removed the extra part for power attack, Banned mythic vital strike and dont let them fully recover with one hour rest. Have 7 players with at least 6 showing up and 2 have cohorts. I have killed the slayer 6 times and one Pally 5 times. Add to that, I have nearly killed most several times and we are only into book 3. Im not sure I can get them past the end without softballing it. I use Scorpions adjustments but not much else. I say this to say I envy some of you for being able to bring it.
My ideas for making Wrath harder come down to the simple question of whether or not you still use XP.
If you don't, and you instead have the PCs level up when the book suggests, then my suggestion involves way less fights. Let me explain.
If you are ditching XP, then every room does not need to have an encounter. You can read through the books and determine which fights *actually* help contribute to the story and plotline. The ones that don't? Ditch em. This leaves you with fewer encounters, but, more leeway as the GM to get even crazier with them.
One ability that ALL my mythic opponents will have is this: the ability to spend a mythic point to negate a confirmed threat by a PC. It will do normal damage instead.
I have also purchased several books from the 3pp Legendary Games. Their mythic and Righteous Crusade stuff. I plan on utilizing many ideas and creations from Mythic Monsters: Demons, Unrighteous Villains, Path of Villains, and Legendary Villains: Antipaladins.
What kinds of things can you expect from these supplements? How about this? A CR13 babau monk martial artist. And a CR16 glabrezu that really and truly lives up to the title of Treachery Demon.
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We have ditched Xp in my wrath game, we finished up book 2 and are taking a break and a friend is GMing SS right now.
I plan to go through book 3 removed the fights that don't progress the story and make the ones that do way more intense and have focus more on the horror that is the world wound.
Aside from the impossibility of keeping up with the exponential mythic progression in power, I am finishing Book 5 and have some suggestions.
1. Use Scorpi0n_mjd's modified stat blocks (I rebuilt them even more, but they are a great start.)
2. Give every monster with mythic ranks the Advanced Template.
3. All monsters have maximum hit points; then I multiply a creature's final HP total by its mythic rank. If you keep mythic power attack/vitalstrike/foebiter in the game, this is an essential step to avoid one-hit kills from fighters.
4. No death from massive damage for any mythic creature.
5. Add creature's mythic rank to every stat block component, saves, SR, DR, every stat. These monsters need to save against PCs with ridiculous CL and other checks. Give them a fighting chance.
6. DR for demon lords and anything MR 9-10 is not bypassed by any means.
7. All mythic creatures have the innate ability to negate critical hits or any single hit with a mythic point expenditure once per round or once per initiative, whichever greater.
8. Mythic Paragon allows MR >10 for some elite foes (Hepzamirah, Baphomet, Deskari.)
Have some other tricks up my sleeves, but bottom line is that if you are going to run this campaign, around MT 3 PCs are rapidly outpacing mythic monsters and you better be ready for it. Give careful thought to nerfing many mythic abilities or removing them from the game altogether (I removed Undetectable because it is ridiculously broken.)