A 5th level rogue with 16 intelligence has the underground chemist archetype and bomber rogue talent.
He comes up on a situation where his opponent is flat footed and lobs a bomb at the enemy -- it is his first attack of the round.
Does the bomb do:
1. 3d6+3 damage (just the bomb's normal damage)
2. 6d6+3 damage (bomb's damage and precise chemical weapon allowing sneak attack)
3. Something else?
Second question:
Does the chemical weapons ability basically work as fast bombs with the bomber rogue talent, or does it only apply to "mundane" splash weapons?
My thought is the later.
Bump
1. Seems pretty straightforward, 3d6+3+3d6 (bomb+INT+sneak)
2. Alchemical Item would generally apply to "normal" alchemical items. Bombs and Extracts have their own unique rules about drawing and using.
Yeah those were my thoughts too.
Bombs have that whole "standard action to use" it seemed very unlikely to me but figured I would double check.
Another question:
The damage of the bomb is equal to the rogue's sneak attack damage. This is different than the alchemist's bomb which 1d6 + int bonus and then increases.
My understanding is that if you were to vital strike with an alchemist's bomb only that initial damage would be increased (which is to say you would only get a single extra d6).
How would the rogue's bomb interact with vital strike?
Only the first d6 is multiplied. Have another careful read of the bomb rules. I would link you but I'm on a phone and typing is hard enough. Sorry to bear bad news.
The bomb rules don't cover the rogue situation as thoroughly as the situation specifically states the damage for the rogue's situation is different than it is for the alchemist.
Again -- the rogue's specifically states the bomb's damage is equal to your sneak attack damage.
Alchemist's bombs state they are 1d6 + int mod, and then they get an increase which is bonus damage.
The rogue's bombs state that the damage for the bomb is equal to his sneak attack damage. So the base damage in this case is the multiple d6.
On a direct hit, an alchemist's bomb inflicts 1d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist's Intelligence modifier. The damage of an alchemist's bomb increases by 1d6 points at every odd-numbered alchemist level (this bonus damage is not multiplied on a critical hit or by using feats such as Vital Strike).
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.
The wording of the bomber trick and the similarities between the wordings of the Sneak Attack and Bomb class abilities make me think that the same restrictions should carry over. They don't call out the multiplication issue in the talent, but then they don't specifically call out most of the rules for bombs.
Also, consider a test of reasonableness. If vital strike was allowed to multiply all of an attack like a bomb that would be an insane increase in power for the ability. I think most GMs would balk at allowing that at their tables.
well the considerations is part of why I'm asking.
On the one hand it's a lot of dice.
On the other they can't get fast bombs (while the bomber discovery talent is nice, it's once only and you don't have an alchemist level so you can't get the nicer bombs), and they have much fewer bombs.
Even if they get improved we are looking at a maximum of 30d6+Int mod or 40d6+int mod damage so an average of 140+int mod damage... at level 20 for a standard action we aren't exactly rocking anyone's world with that, at best he's looking at 240 damage.
Criticals would be a bigger consideration I guess but even then if they critical on the improved vital strike we are still only looking at 50d6+2xint mod or an average of 165 and maximum of 300 -- it's certainly no where near what a nova burst of fast bombs from an alchemist can put out or any of the martials.
There are plenty of ways to throw out more damage than that on a regular basis at level 20.
So it passes the stink test for me on total damage. There are a few ways they could raise their sneak attack damage, but the most I'm seeing is 13d6 sneak attack at best (so increase the maximum by 15d6 if they critical on a vital strike with a bomb that also gets sneak attack damage).
Another consideration -- getting a bomb ready is a standard action so for the rogue in question we are looking at 2 rounds before he could do the improved vital strike bomb as he doesn't have enough standard actions in a single round. So action economy makes this a bad choice still too.
Alchemist bombs become inert if not used the round they are created.
Another consideration -- getting a bomb ready is a standard action so for the rogue in question we are looking at 2 rounds before he could do the improved vital strike bomb as he doesn't have enough standard actions in a single round. So action economy makes this a bad choice still too.
This isn't the case for one of two reasons depending how you look at things. Either as Durngrun mentions your bomb goes inert and you can't throw it, or the bomb's standard action to draw/create/throw it combines with vital strike's standard action attack and you're good to go.
A point against your "total damage stink test" (patent pending), is to consider the power of the bomb not compared to the alchemist's bomb, but to other rogue tricks. As one of the three major class abilities of the alchemist (extract/bomb/mutagen) and their only directly offensive class ability, it makes sense the damage that can be quite high. For the rogue's bombs however, it's only a single basic trick that they pick up on top of all their other class abilities. (let's not enter a discussion on whether the rogue and alchemist are actually balanced in power against each other overall).
For the multiple rounds I agree -- I think it would simplify down into just the single action like it does for the alchemist.
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For the stink test:
For what you are spending though would be another point -- not just what the other rogue talents are.
Also it would be completely unfair to compare many of the rogue talents as they simply flat out suck, and even then most other rogue talents we are not taking 2 extra feats to expound on. Which do we choose? The one that in a very limited situation maximizes your sneak attack damage? The always crappy powerful sneak attack? Bleed attack that has the potential for infinite damage (against a regenerating opponent)? The rogue talent that can increase your AC by up to 10 points against a single foe? Or the ones that let you reroll a crap skill check once a day?
And honestly even at say level 10 we would be looking at 5d6 +5d6 for vital strike and maybe +5d6 sneak attack, so either 10d6 or 15d6 at 10th level, coming out to 35~48 points of direct damage on average on a hit (which is a standard action). In almost all cases this is going to be a bad choice, even rogues can get better DPR at level 10 than that.
It would be a decent means of dealing with things you normally couldn't hit at all. It's fire damage too so there is that issue to content with (the most common of resistances and immunities).
For damage I don't feel this is off the charts in any way for the levels we are talking about, it's just not an absolute trap like say powerful sneak attack is. For the average rogue you'll be able to do it 2~3 times a day at most (it's limited by intelligence) and if you invest more into it, well investments are supposed to pay off right?
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All that said my main issue question would be by the rules do you see a legitimate argument for the rogue's bomb's base damage being exactly what it says it is (equal to sneak attack)?
As it reads (to me) the base damage is equal to the sneak attack dice. Is that a valid point or am I reading too much (or too little) into it?
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The thing is that technically the trick could be read to work exactly as you describe.
I just think that this is due more to imprecise language rather than authorial intent. Basically RAW yes, you could probably make it work. I just have reservations concerning RAI.
In the end it's something I would double check with my GM and wouldn't be surprised if they felt a bit squeamish about allowing it.
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The bombs damage is equal to your sneak attack damage. It doesn't increase instead when you use it the ability checks and sets.
Though I do imagine this was non-intentional.
So for FAQ status:
The bomber discovery states it is equal to your sneak attack damage. If a rogue at level 8 uses vital strike with the bomber discovery what would the damage be?
Can you use Vital Strike with a splash weapon? I know Alchemist's Bombs have a rule about it but I don't know if that would still apply if this is written differently.