I have a DM that won't allow traits at all because they can "break the game"... Is this something that'll ruin character customization, or is this not a huge deal?
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it's not huge. You can make fine characters without it.
You'll be more restricted on what class skills you get but otherwise no. Very few playstyles rely too heavily on the existence of traits; I wouldn't recommend a blaster caster but anything else that is usually a good idea still is.
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Traits really can help break games. Especially since the most powerful ones are for the most powerful classes: Casters.
While I like browsing for traits to use not using them in a game is no big deal.
In 99% of the cases they are not used for "char customization" but for optimization.
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The most "game breaking" a trait can be in my reading is that it can grant you the same abilities as a feat, if you pick the exact right traits. The one that really comes to mind is the weapon heirloom trait which allowed my level 1 Half-Orc Barbarian to be proficient with a Large Bastard Sword (Think Amiri Pre-Gen character sheet) without spending a feat on it. I then took power attack as my first level feat and have been rage smashing enemies (at level 1) for 2d8+11 ever since. (3d8+12 after the party cleric casts enlarge person)
So at first level it opens up a few silly options like this, a few levels down the round and it will all even out.
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Traits really can help break games. Especially since the most powerful ones are for the most powerful classes: Casters.
While I like browsing for traits to use not using them in a game is no big deal.
In 99% of the cases they are not used for "char customization" but for optimization.
With Magical Lineage and Reactionary I agree, but... I do really like how traits can give you class skills you otherwise would not have. It helps enable you to move a bit away from the archetype of your class and flesh out a more unique character.
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With Magical Lineage and Reactionary I agree, but... I do really like how traits can give you class skills you otherwise would not have. It helps enable you to move a bit away from the archetype of your class and flesh out a more unique character.Traits really can help break games. Especially since the most powerful ones are for the most powerful classes: Casters.
While I like browsing for traits to use not using them in a game is no big deal.
In 99% of the cases they are not used for "char customization" but for optimization.
There are traits that give you class skills you would not normally have. Dangerously Curious adds Use Magic Device to your class skill list, very useful for a melee type with a wand of enlarge person or color spray
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I have a DM that won't allow traits at all because they can "break the game"... Is this something that'll ruin character customization, or is this not a huge deal?
I do this myself. Most traits are pretty mediocre little bonuses that don't add much but flavor. Unfortunately there's a small handful that don't look like much to the untrained eye but basically just more tools to make casters nutso tough and they don't need anymore.
I have however added a houserule that at character creation everyone gets to pick a skill to make a class skill regardless of their classes skill list. The house rule's actually older than traits. I highly recommend it to anyone who gets rid of traits across the board.
- Torger
I don't use traits. Not because I'm worried about them breaking the game, but because I don't think they're very useful. If someone thinks a particular skill would make more sense as a class skill, I'm willing to let them swap it for a default one.
Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are dangerously broken, especially if allowed to stack. Hello, free metamagic? Far more powerful than any feats. And really, does it make sense that every danged spellcasting PC in Golarion "grew up on one of the wayang-populated islands of Minata"???
The most important use of other traits is to give PCs a class list skill that they wouldn't otherwise have, like UMD, perception and diplomacy. IMHO, this is entirely legitimate and helps make up for the shortcomings of many classes (fighters without perception???) but if your DM doesn't like it, hey, it's his call.
Perhaps you could suggest one of two options:
1) allow feats with the exception of the wacky ones like Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage (an anything else the DM has a beef with.
2) use a random background generator like this one and only allow traits specifically mentioned in this background.
Or, just roll with the DM's ideosyncrasies. Making up for your characters' shortcomings is half the fun of RPing.
With Magical Lineage and Reactionary I agree, but... I do really like how traits can give you class skills you otherwise would not have. It helps enable you to move a bit away from the archetype of your class and flesh out a more unique character.Traits really can help break games. Especially since the most powerful ones are for the most powerful classes: Casters.
While I like browsing for traits to use not using them in a game is no big deal.
In 99% of the cases they are not used for "char customization" but for optimization.
There are a few more that can be very strong. Armor master to wear armor without proficiency for example.
I like the class skill traits, too. But it is totally possible to play without them. If you need a skill not on your class list just grab skill focus. Short term it is identical to getting a skill as class skill and in the long run it's better.
The problem is that some traits are much stronger than others so they become must haves and so other traits are just page count.
If all the traits were of similar strength I would like them even better.
Yeah I wanted to get the trait for Magus that lowered the caster level of a specific spell by 1 when you use a metamagic feat, so I'd get it for Shocking Grasp so I can Intensify it at lvl 1 in my spellbook instead of lvl 2.
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Not being able to take Magical Knack is a massive, not-suitable-for-all-audiences kick in the pants to dipping casters and/or those who use prestige classes that drop casting levels.
Yeah I wanted to get the trait for Magus that lowered the caster level of a specific spell by 1 when you use a metamagic feat, so I'd get it for Shocking Grasp so I can Intensify it at lvl 1 in my spellbook instead of lvl 2.
That one is on my: If ever I write down house-rules it gets banned list.
@Magical knack: I love dipping but casters really don't need a buff like that. The exception being rangers or paladins with their -3 CL without dipping.
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Yeah I wanted to get the trait for Magus that lowered the caster level of a specific spell by 1 when you use a metamagic feat, so I'd get it for Shocking Grasp so I can Intensify it at lvl 1 in my spellbook instead of lvl 2.
And Intensified doesn't really have any use for Shocking Grasp until you reach 6th level caster, anyhow.
I admit that, along with the skill traits, the saving throw traits can be nice. +1 to Will, Reflex or Fortitude saving throws? Yeah, help out your weak saves...
I have a DM that won't allow traits at all because they can "break the game"... Is this something that'll ruin character customization, or is this not a huge deal?I do this myself. Most traits are pretty mediocre little bonuses that don't add much but flavor. Unfortunately there's a small handful that don't look like much to the untrained eye but basically just more tools to make casters nutso tough and they don't need anymore.
I have however added a houserule that at character creation everyone gets to pick a skill to make a class skill regardless of their classes skill list. The house rule's actually older than traits. I highly recommend it to anyone who gets rid of traits across the board.
- Torger
Good suggestions - for my next game I plan to allow characters to add 2 skill so their list of class skills and give them 2 bonus skill ranks at first level in lieu of traits.
Contributor
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I'm surprised Lessons of Chaldira and Finding Haleen didn't get a mention.
Armor Expert is fantastic for some martials, if only because it lets anyone wear Medium Armor (Armor Expert + Mithril = ACP 0 Breastplate). And Lessons' re-rolling saves is fun for everybody.
I like traits for adding that little bit of extra customization that helps distinguish characters early on. I do reflavor mine as needed though (and let the players do the same). Wayang Spellhunter turns into Metamagic Master turns into yes, her teacher in magic loves his metamagic and passed that down to her.
That said, there are very few builds that are reliant on traits. This includes the Magus. It'll be a little rougher between levels, oh, five and seven, as you have a lot more pull on your level two slots. But especially if you're a vanilla Magus with Spell Recall, that's not likely to hurt too much, and in the long run it gets negligible.
It is enough that I wouldn't recommend trying to build a metamagic-heavy Magus to keep Shocking Grasp useful into the endgame; take advantage of their good level 3-5 spells when Grasp starts to fall off. But will it make the Magus useless? No.
To be fair, one requires the character to worship a fairly obscure deity, and the other is a Campaign trait, which I always assumed would be restricted to that campaign (although if you are playing Legacy of Fire and your concept doesn't absolutely demand one of the others, hello auto-pick!)
The same thing bothered me back when Mummy's Mask came out and everyone lost their minds over Trap Finder. Campaign trait. Am I alone? Does everyone else just allow those traits wherever, whenever?
Also, I feel that the metamagic reducers should be reclassified to not stack.
They should be feats. And even then they should not stack and require some prereq. like spell focus.
Gaining Traits (PRD)
"When you create your character for a campaign, ask your GM how many traits you can select. In most cases, a new PC should gain two traits, effectively gaining what amounts to a bonus feat at character creation. Some GMs may wish to adjust this number somewhat, depending upon their style of play; you may only be able to pick one trait, or your GM might allow three or more. Even if your GM normally doesn't allow bonus traits, you might still be able to pick up some with the Additional Traits feat."
So you can expect between 0-3(or more). It's up to the DM. Myself, I think lack of traits will make some characters less viable (I'm looking at you archeologist) but it wouldn't make any ruined. I have yet to see a game-breaking trait though.
I think the trait I'd miss the most would be the two world trait. I like my out of class cantrip. That and unscathed. ;)
I have a DM that won't allow traits at all because they can "break the game"... Is this something that'll ruin character customization, or is this not a huge deal?Strong evidence that your DM is reading the Paizo boards.
I'd say it's evidence that your DM is selectively reading the Paizo boards. Near as I can tell most posters are perfectly OK with traits as a system, but some ban the outlier traits like Wayang Spell Hunter and Fate's Favored.
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I'd say it's strong evidence that your DM is selectively reading the Paizo boards. Near as I can tell most posters are perfectly OK with traits as a system, but some ban the outlier traits like Wayang Spell Hunter and Fate's Favored.I have a DM that won't allow traits at all because they can "break the game"... Is this something that'll ruin character customization, or is this not a huge deal?Strong evidence that your DM is reading the Paizo boards.
Yes, why get rid of the few you don't like when you can just dump the whole system. Just think of how many games they've saved from the horribly powerful ability to automatically stabilize a dying creature merely by touching it or gaining Int to heal instead of Wis...
Good suggestions - for my next game I plan to allow characters to add 2 skill so their list of class skills and give them 2 bonus skill ranks at first level in lieu of traits.
It would be more "flavorful" if you chopped down the list of traits to include only those you wanted to use. Many traits offer the +1rank, +list of class skills for one or more skills.
IMHO the "fluff" part of the trait description can help players imagine who their PC was before beginning their adventuring career.
YMMV.
Rules wise, this is fine. Traits are optional.
As people have said, there are some traits that are too powerful. Most just allow you to pick up another class skill at a minor bonus. If the GM is willing to allow you to adjust class skills to better fit the concept, that is much better than the traits.
As also mentioned above, the only trait that I would really miss is Magical Knack. There is no feat that allows this, and if you multi-class a spell casting class it really helps. On the other hand, a number of people have used it to boost their Ranger or Paladin casting levels -- something that it is possible some GMs would frown on. Myself, I really don't see the point of the -3 caster level penalty on those classes.
On the other hand, a number of people have used it to boost their Ranger or Paladin casting levels -- something that it is possible some GMs would frown on. Myself, I really don't see the point of the -3 caster level penalty on those classes.
I think it's a holdover from the days when the only way to get both full fighting capabilites and spellcasting was to multiclass. AS if a Ranger 4 were really a Ranger 4/Spellcaster 1.
AFAIK, most ranger and paladin spells aren't particularly level dependent anyway.Personally, I like traits for the extra cool background almost as much as for the added class skills you get. I'd even take traits if they were assigned randomly. The "character background" rules look great for this. Pity nobody seems to have done up an auto-version of these background rules.
Good suggestions - for my next game I plan to allow characters to add 2 skill so their list of class skills and give them 2 bonus skill ranks at first level in lieu of traits.It would be more "flavorful" if you chopped down the list of traits to include only those you wanted to use. Many traits offer the +1rank, +list of class skills for one or more skills.
IMHO the "fluff" part of the trait description can help players imagine who their PC was before beginning their adventuring career.
YMMV.
See, I read the traits and think "Why does my character need THAT background when I could instead use THIS background." Nothing about giving two equivalent skill use traits removes flavor, it just allows for more flexibility. Think of it as a DM approved "reflavor as needed, however needed". If a player wants to put one rank into heal and make it a class skills and claim to be a Caretaker, they are free to do that. They could also have been a combat medic, or perhaps a surgeon, etc. For new players who might have a hard time coming up with their own background, I recommend perusing the traits and advise them to use their bonus skill ranks to do something similar. The real goal here is to keep "traits" focused on character development rather than combat abilities.
The CR system is already designed for PCs to succeed. It has been my experience that traits (as written) are just one more tool that gets used differently by players with varying degrees of system mastery, contributing to the overall gap in PC effectiveness.
YMMV.
Personally, I like traits for the extra cool background almost as much as for the added class skills you get.
I personally like the 'added class skills' traits the least. There are a lot of traits that give you unique things that for some reason you can't even find in feats. Snag a cantrip on another classes list, check. Use another stat on skill, check. Gain 0 level SLA, check. Skill reroll, check. Extra language, check.
The extra skills are kind of... meh. Several classes already get the majority of skills already. For instance, the investigator is only missing 2 skills. If you limit traits to just skills, I guess we know which ones they get...
I use traits all the time in the games I GM. Never had anything broken about them. At worst I saw one player with the magical lineage trait on Magus to use intensified Shocking Grasp. I didn't find that to be game breaking. I mean it was good at 10D6 at level 10 but that seemed about on par with what others were doing at that level. Not a big deal with a 15 pt buy but I can see it being a problem with high pt buys.
^ Yeah it'd be a 15 point buy system... I do have 7 Wis/Cha, but my next lowest score is Con at 12, Str is 13 so I can carry crap without being slowed, and then Int is 16 and Dex is 18... The DM hates Min/Max people... but if you have Ordinary Stats... you should just play a townsperson and not go on adventures... lol. There'd be nothing special about you.
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Just pimp your PC for uselessness.
I know this kind of DM. The more useless you are, the more he will see you as a better roleplayer, and player in general.
As such, you will end up with random DM fiat "get of jail" tickets, and random specialized treasure.
Rumourmonger Rogue, with a 13 13 13 13 13 10 stat array.
If he decides he doesn't like the PC, just ask him to build you one. You can even ask if he wants to play it as well.
Bring beer. You are likely there to watch him play, and not yourself, so you might as well kick back a few brews.
Traits are powerful enough that one of the players in our group gave up a Feat to get Additional Traits.
And my brother-sister team (Druid & Rogue) with Kin-Bond has saved them a few time with re-rolls on ST's to make up for the bad REF save of the Druid and bad WIL save for the Rogue.
Just pimp your PC for uselessness.
I know this kind of DM. The more useless you are, the more he will see you as a better roleplayer, and player in general.
As such, you will end up with random DM fiat "get of jail" tickets, and random specialized treasure.
Rumourmonger Rogue, with a 13 13 13 13 13 10 stat array.
If he decides he doesn't like the PC, just ask him to build you one. You can even ask if he wants to play it as well.
Bring beer. You are likely there to watch him play, and not yourself, so you might as well kick back a few brews.
Well the DM attempts to over-balance fights I think, since someone almost always is able to summon a crowd of creatures and thus make fights not entirely easy to balance well.
If I were that useless, the party would likely vote to kick me, each of the party is good at something, I would be good at nothing lol.
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Just pimp your PC for uselessness.
I know this kind of DM. The more useless you are, the more he will see you as a better roleplayer, and player in general.
As such, you will end up with random DM fiat "get of jail" tickets, and random specialized treasure.
Rumourmonger Rogue, with a 13 13 13 13 13 10 stat array.
If he decides he doesn't like the PC, just ask him to build you one. You can even ask if he wants to play it as well.
Bring beer. You are likely there to watch him play, and not yourself, so you might as well kick back a few brews.
Well the DM attempts to over-balance fights I think, since someone almost always is able to summon a crowd of creatures and thus make fights not entirely easy to balance well.
If I were that useless, the party would likely vote to kick me, each of the party is good at something, I would be good at nothing lol.
Just ignore BBT, he's one of those people that have managed to turn hyperbole into an art form.
I do have to question why your GM thinks that traits are ban-worthy but apparently allows summon-spam casters to exist.
^ He's apparently been DM'ing for 20 years... You'd think that could prepare him for anything players could throw at him. Two of the party members actually helped create 3.0/3.5 D&D as well... and they are the ones that just Bull Rush into a fight and expect to not die... XD
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Traits are powerful enough that one of the players in our group gave up a Feat to get Additional Traits.
And my brother-sister team (Druid & Rogue) with Kin-Bond has saved them a few time with re-rolls on ST's to make up for the bad REF save of the Druid and bad WIL save for the Rogue.
That sound right in line with the expected power of them. "In most cases, a new PC should gain two traits, effectively gaining what amounts to a bonus feat at character creation." They are expecting 2 traits = feat. If Additional Traits was never contemplated, then traits would be too weak. If it's always picked, then they are too strong. Having one person take a feat for traits sounds like your group is counting them just about right.
I don't think most traits are a big deal but I'd be sad to see them go mostly because of class skill cheating. But then again I'm not one to use it for optimization so there's that.