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I've seen threads touching on it, but nothing close to a definitive answer.
The simplest, least complex example involves using Beast Shape II to transform into a Giant Octopus. As part of the polymorph subschool, it has the following to say in regards to natural attacks:
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
Now, for a Giant Octopus, its reach entry states: 15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacle)
That's not listed as an (Ex) ability, a Special ability, or anything else. It's just mentioned under Reach, that its tentacles reach 30ft.
So if I use Beast Shape II to become a Giant Octopus, do I get 15ft or 30ft of reach? The polymorph subschool is pretty exclusive about "If the spell doesn't say you get an ability, you don't get it." But is that extended reach part of its natural attacks? Or is it considered a special ability, and you can only Beast Shape into a stubby octopus?
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You gain the attacks of the base creature. So if it has really long arms, you get really long arms. If it is an Extraordinary physical ability, then generally no but your GM may allow it because that's what the creature is (though this is more about things like super sharp claws that have an increased threat range or crit multiplier than with reach; concept is the same though).
Is there any rules that can be referenced for that? It's become a point of contention as to what is or isn't part of a natural attack.
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Not to my knowledge.
If you become an octopus, do you have tentacles? Are some of them longer than others? Is a 30 foot tentacle considered extraordinary or part of the creature's natural attack.
Basically, if it is described in the Attack Block and there's no special ability (EX, SLA, etc) that mentions it, then it must be part of the Natural Attack. What else could it be?
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The Iguanodon is an example of a creature whose natural attack is improved due to an EX ability. If you beast shape into one of these, you don't (strictly speaking) get the thumb spike increased crit multiplier. Now, a reasonable GM may agree that it is an aspect of the creature's physical form, so you can have it, but the rules strictly interpreted say you don't.
Now, if you are talking about the Giant Lake Octopus then we have another issue. You cannot, technically, polymorph into a Giant Lake Octopus because this isn't a normal octopus; it is an octopus with the Giant and Advanced templates applied to it and templated creatures are not normally valid choices for a polymorph effect. That said, if we presume your GM allows it, there is no EX ability listed that increases the range of the octopus tentacle attack; it is just the attack as it stands.
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I say that reach of the natural attacks is part of the natural attacks. It's just common sense and kind of pedantic otherwise.
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I was asked to post my perspective in this thread after writing my GM Guide to Polymorph Spells article for Know Direction today.
In the case mentioned by the OP (a case that comes up frequently and deserves an FAQ, in my opinion), the shapeshifter would NOT gain the giant octopus / giant lake octopus's extra reach. Here's why.
While polymorph spells do state that you gain any natural attacks that the forum possesses, anything that the spell doesn't specifically state that you receive either from the polymorph subschool rules or the special abilities list of the spell is not given the caster. For example, the grab special ability is listed in the melee attack section of every creature that possesses it, but despite that all polymorph spells specifically call out whether or not a caster gains grab when assuming a forum with that special ability. If the rule was, "You gain the natural attack exactly as its printed in the stat block," then the spell wouldn't have bothered to call out that you gain the grab special ability.
Likewise, a giant octopus's extra reach with its tentacles actually isn't described under its melee attack. It is described under the creature's reach entry. A thorough read of the polymorph subschool and every polymorph spell in the game reveals that not a single instance of the word "reach" is uttered. As a result, you only gain whatever reach would be afforded to you for your new size when you use a polymorph effect to transform into a creature. Because as I say in my blog article: A polymorph spell only gives you what it says it gives you.
"Extra Reach" is not part of the natural attack, nor is it an ability specifically defined by the polymorph spell. Therefore, you don't get it.
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"Extra Reach" is not part of the natural attack, nor is it an ability specifically defined by the polymorph spell. Therefore, you don't get it.
But reach IS considered an inherent part of every other weapon that has it, and reach is not called out as an Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like ability. There is no listing for "Extra Reach" under Monster Abilities in any Bestiary index, unlike Grab, Swallow, or other such abilities that are called out as part of the Polymorph exclusions.
So I suppose my question is, why are you so sure that reach is not considered part of a Tentacle, when it would be an inherent part of a Spear or Whip?
So I suppose my question is, why are you so sure that reach is not considered part of a Tentacle, when it would be an inherent part of a Spear or Whip?
Chapter 8, Page 195 of the Core Rulebook talks about Large and larger creatures and reach. It notes how exceptions exist, as does Table 8-4 on that same page. That section basically states that reach and natural attacks aren't the same, even when a creature uses a different reach value for a specific kind of attack.
As written, your reach is not impacted so you use the default reach. An FAQ that allows polymorph spells to grant you the reach of whatever creature you're transforming into would make sense, and might not even be all that broken. (Its really the druid / monk multiclassers that this affects, after all.) But as written, the spell doesn't talk about what it does to your reach, so you have to assume that those conditional modifiers don't apply. You use the standard, unmodified reach listed in the creature's listing.
But I implore you to hit the FAQ button. With Mark Seifter at the helm, we just might get an official answer! :D
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But is the extra reach a trait of the creature (and therefore would have to be explicitly given by the polymorph spell in question) or a trait of the natural attack (and therefore is already granted by the portion of the polymorph subschool quoted above)?
By my perspective, polymorph grants both the natural range AND natural weapon range of a creature, the same way that a human with a spear has 5ft of natural reach, but their weapon grants them 10ft. And since polymorph grants the natural attacks of a creature, it would be treated like giving a weapon along the same rules as any other weapons. It even calls out giving proficiency, furthering the interpretation that a "Tentacle" is still just a type of weapon.
(Oh, and believe me, the FAQ button has been pressed!)
Yep, I wish I could press the FAQ button again.
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There is no rule saying creatures of size X can only have Y reach. It just happens they typically have Y reach so the extra long limbs are not an issue. If the argument is that reach needs to be calles out the changing into a huge elemental means you only have 5 ft reach since reach is no given as a special ability in any polymorph rule.
If you change your size to large then you typically have a natural reach of 10 feet, and beast form II changes you size to large if you want. Big And Little Creatures In Combat
If you change your size to large then you typically have a natural reach of 10 feet, and beast form II changes you size to large if you want. Big And Little Creatures In Combat
Typically yes but its not a hard rule requiring a special ability to overcome.
More than just the reach/size ratio, though, this is wondering about creatures that have reach above and beyond the "typical" reaches given on that chart, like the Giant Octopus (which apparently has a reach of 10ft/20ft with a tentacle, not 15ft/30ft like I said in my first message. Oops! But the essence of the question remains the same.)
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So I suppose my question is, why are you so sure that reach is not considered part of a Tentacle, when it would be an inherent part of a Spear or Whip?Chapter 8, Page 195 of the Core Rulebook talks about Large and larger creatures and reach. It notes how exceptions exist, as does Table 8-4 on that same page. That section basically states that reach and natural attacks aren't the same, even when a creature uses a different reach value for a specific kind of attack.
As written, your reach is not impacted so you use the default reach. An FAQ that allows polymorph spells to grant you the reach of whatever creature you're transforming into would make sense, and might not even be all that broken. (Its really the druid / monk multiclassers that this affects, after all.) But as written, the spell doesn't talk about what it does to your reach, so you have to assume that those conditional modifiers don't apply. You use the standard, unmodified reach listed in the creature's listing.
But I implore you to hit the FAQ button. With Mark Seifter at the helm, we just might get an official answer! :D
When you polymorph into another creature, you assume that creature's physical characteristics. A creature's extra reach for its natural weapons is generally due to the fact that it's physical characteristics grant it the extra reach, not because there is an extraordinary ability that grants it. If you polymorph into a dragon, your bite attack has extra reach because the dragon has a long neck. If you polymorph into a lamia matriarch, you only have a 5' reach, not a 10' reach for large creatures.