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I've been debating what to make for PFS that is rather different from what I currently have (Druid, Alchemist, Investigator), and wanted a character that has an easy time moving around the battlefield. With fast movement, no ACP, and skill points to invest in acrobatics and climb, I figured a monk would be handy, and had heard good things about the Tetori for grapple builds. So now I must ask, would you guys say that the Tetori is still the best grappler? I'll naturally invest in potions of Enlarge Person at higher levels.
Mostly, I'm tired of having to deal with only a move speed of 30 feet that gets dribbled down to nothing by difficult terrain and enemies that constantly run away, and so an alternative I've been considering is a ranged character. For the ranged character idea, I'm leaning towards either a slayer or a gunslinger. My decision mostly hinges on how reliably I could get ranged sneak attacks against enemies as a slayer. I don't expect to get sneak attack at all times, but once or twice per fight would be nice.
I've already played loads of casters and the like between PFS and home games, and for them I'm rather tired of casting a spell I'd been saving for just the right moment, and then have combat end before the full effect could take place, or have the thing roll high on its save, or fizzle on the attack roll.
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I don't know a lot about grapple builds but Ive seen tetori at work and they have done well enough. I agree that a monk fits what you seek very well but I would suggest a single level dip into urban barbarian for two reasons... 1) +10 speed and 2) the controlled rage of +4 to a physical attribute can be a huge asset on a limited basis. Finally, being an elf or getting travel domain would also speed you up if you desire to do so and travel domains 1st levelpower does help with your difficult terrain issue you mentioned.
Question, how does being an elf help with speed? And is it something that I'd be able to take as a half-elf?
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Question, how does being an elf help with speed? And is it something that I'd be able to take as a half-elf?
two options. take fleet foot alternate racial trait to gain +2 to initiative and run feat for free. More importantly you can take favored class bonus to add +1 base speed, meaning every five levels you get an extra square. There is even the light step feat but that is not something I would suggest. These may not be what you will want but I thought id at least mention elves are usually the speediest.
edited for accuracy.
Yeah, the Light Step chain is a rather heavy chain to go into, but the favored class bonus is something I could pull off, and if I used the half-elf's skill focus to improve acrobatics, that'd help out as well. I think I'd go Half-Elf.
That does leave the question of stat-array however.
I'm thinking between:
STR 18, DEX 14, CON 12, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 8
and
STR 16, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10
and
STR 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 7
I'm leaning towards the last array, and raising INT to 10 with the 4th level advancement, FCB going into increasing speed.
Still open to suggestions on a ranged build if anybody has insights into that too.
Look into Feather Step Slippers. Relatively cheap (2,000gp) and you ignore difficult terrain.
I would avoid grappling builds, I've only seen one really successful, it was pretty high level, and am pretty sure the guy playing it was using some pretty liberal interpretations of the rules.
My advice would be to go straight monk, add Qinggong for some self buffs and ranged attacks. Early levels you'll feel a little disappointed. You won't have a great AC yet, and you won't come near the damage of the greatsword wielding barbarian, but if you stick with it, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how effective you are.
Still open to suggestions on a ranged build if anybody has insights into that too.
For ranged, it's really hard to top a Zen Archer. Move fast and shoot them You can still add Qinggong to it. Most of the eclectic abilities of the monk with a bow.
Ranged sneak attack usually takes magic to pull off after the surprise round. That's not a slayer's best thing. Gunslingers or ZAM's would be much easier to play.
There's a guy touting his build for tying people up on the first page of this forum at the mo, look at the kidnapper thread.
A druid can be about the most mobile character around between wild shape and woodland stride, I'm surprised you've played one but haven't scratched the itch to play a mobile character yet.
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My opinion is that the Maneuver Master is the best grappler; he can grapple and tie up opponents in two grapple checks as opposed to five. And to me, tying up your opponent is the only reason you want to grapple. Oh, sure, with tetori you could grapple a group of people and constrict them to do damage, but do you really want to be that guy whom grapples all five kobolds?
You want to be a tetori monk for only one reason; buffing up your grapple, disallowing teleports, polymorphs, etc. Typically, GMs will become frustrated with you because of that. To me, the Tetori monk doesn't feel OP, it feels pampered.
Finally, you don't want to be a dedicated grappler; GMs hate one-trick ponies. When the answer to everything is, "I grapple it", it'll become a numbers game. "I grapple" "Roll CMB" "31" "You succeed". That is not the conversation that you want to have around the table. Tetori simply isn't fun, is what I'm saying.
For this reason, Maneuver Master is better.
Here is my advice for playing one. Multiclass and get a Bill or take Exotic Weapon Proficiency as a feat for one of the following; Kyoketsu Shoge, Mancatcher, Meteor Hammer, Kusarigama, Double-Chained Kama, Rope Dart or Whip. All of these have reach and either Disarm, Distracting or Trip. Because a Maneuver Master can make multiple maneuvers in a turn as well as attack, you can use the qualities of these weapons multiple times per round without provoking attacks of opportunity. Imagine using a whip to disarm three different opponents in one turn, then trip all three in the next. All without the Improved Disarm or Improved Trip feat.
I'm pretty sure you grossly misinterpret the maneuver master's abilities.
It makes a fine dip for a few levels tho.
Could you explain what you mean.
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Alright, I'm not 100% sure which ability of the Maneuver Master Sacredless meant, but here's what I think he's missing:
To pin and then tie up an opponent, you first need to grapple him with a grapple combat maneuver check, then make a maintain grapple check to pin, then make a maintain grapple check to tie up.
Maneuver master, both with flurry of maneuvers and sweeping maneuvers gives you additional grapple maneuvers but not grapple checks to maintain.
This is on top of the fact that the flurry of manuvers ability has ridiculous penalties; if you do two extra maneuvers you get -5 on all. If you do 3, -12. That is going to make you fail at it, especially if you don't even have the necessary feat.
On the up-side, as a 1-2 level dip, you get a bunch of free feats and flurry of maneuvers is not limited to unarmed strikes/monk weapons, nor is it limited by the armor you wear, and not even by the action type (helloooo free dirty trick and grapple!). Hence,it's good for a few level dip, not good taking more than that.
Oh, right. I'm sorry, I'm used to my kidnapper build, who does not have to pin to tie up. Still, you get to grapple and pin in the same turn. Good enough for me. Throw in rapid grappler and greater grapple and you can tie people up for a swift action.
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Oh, sure, with tetori you could grapple a group of people and constrict them to do damage, but do you really want to be that guy whom grapples all five kobolds?
You want to be a tetori monk for only one reason; buffing up your grapple, disallowing teleports, polymorphs, etc. Typically, GMs will become frustrated with you because of that. To me, the Tetori monk doesn't feel OP, it feels pampered.
Finally, you don't want to be a dedicated grappler; GMs hate one-trick ponies. When the answer to everything is, "I grapple it", it'll become a numbers game. "I grapple" "Roll CMB" "31" "You succeed". That is not the conversation that you want to have around the table. Tetori simply isn't fun, is what I'm saying.
1. Yes, Yes I want to stop the blighted buggering kobolds from running in five different directions across the map when our group only has one ranged character to pick them off. (Our barbarians seem to have crippling fears of packing a spare bow for when it's needed.)
2. Don't tell me why I want something when I've told you explicitly what I want. These things you mention are all nice, yes, but they come online fairly late for a tetori, particularly by PFS standards (Retirement at level 12), and if you build around accomplishing something, you shouldn't be able to have your tactic completely disrupted by spells that nearly every caster will know or have prepared as their "Oh S***!" button once they're grappled, the time for stopping my character is when they're still at range. It's potentially a small window with the movement speed, but it's still a window.
3. My usual tables get a real kick out of describing successful rolls. It's not "I roll a 31 and succeed", it's "31 succeeds?" "Yes." "I lunge out at my opponent, grabbing them by their long and unkempt hair before bringing their nose down to meet my knee." We're a mature group of players that's rather comfortable with more visceral combat, and between that and the antics we get up to, we have plenty fun. The GM is the one that's helping us get into the descriptions more.
Lastly, to others in the thread we've already got a guy who frequently plays a Zen Archer, so I'd want something a little different from his character. Judging from what I've heard of the slayer, I think I'll end up going with a gunslinger instead if I go with a ranged build.
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Woah, touchy. I said "you" in the general "you". I thought it was a fair assumption that the tetori archetype is taken for better grappling. If you have a group that allows for visceral combat description, that's great, I just don't like an archetype that focuses on one ability at the exclusion of all others.
2. Don't tell me why I want something when I've told you explicitly what I want. These things you mention are all nice, yes, but they come online fairly late for a tetori, particularly by PFS standards (Retirement at level 12), and if you build around accomplishing something, you shouldn't be able to have your tactic completely disrupted by spells that nearly every caster will know or have prepared as their "Oh S***!" button once they're grappled, the time for stopping my character is when they're still at range. It's potentially a small window with the movement speed, but it's still a window.
Yeah dude that's just dumb... I mean it's almost as dumb as asking for advice in a public forum and getting upset when you get it.
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Woah, touchy. I said "you" in the general "you". I thought it was a fair assumption that the tetori archetype is taken for better grappling. If you have a group that allows for visceral combat description, that's great, I just don't like an archetype that focuses on one ability at the exclusion of all others.
I see grapple as having some versatility in its usage, it can force concentration checks on a caster, keep an enemy from pursuing other party members, or be used to eventually tie up an enemy that needs to be captured. There is then, of course the basic, maintain grapple>damage route. And with climb, acrobatics, perception and (once at 4th level) sense motive all running at high levels I'd still help out with a few situations.
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Brawler 2/ Master of many styles Monk 2/Brawler 8
Focus on Pummeling style/charge and dragon style/ferocity feats. Ignore difficult terrain and Friendlies on your charge of up to 60Ft (more with boots or haste).
I recommend a trip build. I am running This Guy in a campaign and he will Flexiblity in Pummeling Bully for a free Trip attempt when he hits with a strike of Pummeling charge. If successful he gets Viscous stomp and greater trip triggers on a proned target...If the first attack and the trip most likely you will land everything else on a proned target. At level 7 I am getting 5 attacks in on the Charge...6 if they stand up or I am hasted...or 7 if both. I also really like how a trip can be done as a AoO so even if they get up they can easily be knocked back to the ground or if they just trigger a AoO from me then they can end up getting hit a few times.
But what I can't simply cover is all the feat options you can just pick up on the fly. Stuff that is limited in its use or very conditional. I like elemental fist when I find a troll or something with a weakness to an element.
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Brawler 2/ Master of many styles Monk 2/Brawler 8
Focus on Pummeling style/charge and dragon style/ferocity feats. Ignore difficult terrain and Friendlies on your charge of up to 60Ft (more with boots or haste).
I recommend a trip build. I am running This Guy in a campaign and he will Flexiblity in Pummeling Bully for a free Trip attempt when he hits with a strike of Pummeling charge. If successful he gets Viscous stomp and greater trip triggers on a proned target...If the first attack and the trip most likely you will land everything else on a proned target. At level 7 I am getting 5 attacks in on the Charge...6 if they stand up or I am hasted...or 7 if both. I also really like how a trip can be done as a AoO so even if they get up they can easily be knocked back to the ground or if they just trigger a AoO from me then they can end up getting hit a few times.
But what I can't simply cover is all the feat options you can just pick up on the fly. Stuff that is limited in its use or very conditional. I like elemental fist when I find a troll or something with a weakness to an element.
What purpose does the Master of Many Styles serve? Delaying Pummelling Charge by 2 levels with multiclassing seems to be rather counter-intuitive.
The nice thing about monks and brawlers are the bonus feats, what style complements the Tetori? Whether it's to improve grappling or provide some other option. Snake, Mantis or Dragon styles all look decent.
Brawler 2/ Master of many styles Monk 2/Brawler 8
Focus on Pummeling style/charge and dragon style/ferocity feats. Ignore difficult terrain and Friendlies on your charge of up to 60Ft (more with boots or haste).
I recommend a trip build. I am running This Guy in a campaign and he will Flexiblity in Pummeling Bully for a free Trip attempt when he hits with a strike of Pummeling charge. If successful he gets Viscous stomp and greater trip triggers on a proned target...If the first attack and the trip most likely you will land everything else on a proned target. At level 7 I am getting 5 attacks in on the Charge...6 if they stand up or I am hasted...or 7 if both. I also really like how a trip can be done as a AoO so even if they get up they can easily be knocked back to the ground or if they just trigger a AoO from me then they can end up getting hit a few times.
But what I can't simply cover is all the feat options you can just pick up on the fly. Stuff that is limited in its use or very conditional. I like elemental fist when I find a troll or something with a weakness to an element.
What purpose does the Master of Many Styles serve? Delaying Pummelling Charge by 2 levels with multiclassing seems to be rather counter-intuitive.
The nice thing about monks and brawlers are the bonus feats, what style complements the Tetori? Whether it's to improve grappling or provide some other option. Snake, Mantis or Dragon styles all look decent.
Because you can't use 2 styles at once without MoMS, and you can't charge through allies squares and then full attack without 2 different styles. Pummeling Charge lets you move and full attack, but you need Dragon Style to charge through your allies squares. Not the only way to build that kind of character, but it does do something important.
I run a tetori monk in PFS as a debuffer: I hold things down while my friends kill them. I only get to the "tie up" phase about 50-60% of the time. (In our area, we've had a couple of people play tetoris: they have been really, really effective.)
If you want to do a tie-up grappler, pick up Equipment Trick: Rope. You can skip the pin and go straight to tie up with only a -5 on your maintain check (instead of -10). There are other ways to reduce the penalty, but this one doesn't interrupt your progression in any way.
Some other debuffing grapple options:
I also picked up Enforcer so I can take a free action to intimidate after doing non-lethal damage. In one round (depending on the GM), the target can be grappled, pinned, stunned (Stunning Pin), and shaken.
Dragging people around into better arrangement for the spellcasters is also fun: tetoris retain the monk's evasion and excellent saves, and grappled targets have a -2 Dex, which drops the Reflex save by 1. (I recently dragged one mummy 30 ft to put it adjacent to the other mummy so the sorcerer could use burning hands on both of them--Hey, look! Tetoris also retain the monk's "immune to diseases, including supernatural ones.")
Grabbing Style reduces the penalty for grappling one-handed, which is a great way to grapple multiple people once you get Greater Grapple, so more targets for your friends to hit. This is going to be my monk's next feat, probably.
Even with the advent of the Brawler, tetoris still have some advantages over other grapple build. The obvious ones are Grab at 8th level and Suppress Freedom of Movement at 9th level--no other build I know of gets anything close to those. Even still, you get all the grapple feats early as class features without needing to meet the pre-requisites, and you ignore the penalties for being grappled very early on.
One of my favorite tricks is the 6th level tetori ability: you get Greater Grapple, and creatures that try to grapple you provoke an AoO unless they also have Greater Grapple. (Fun fact: the monster "grab" ability =/= Greater Grapple.)
Side note:
You can't stack monk with barbarian unless you a) use the martial artist monk archetype or b) take all your monk levels first. As soon as your barbarian becomes lawful to take levels in monk, you lose nearly all of your abilities.
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Because you can't use 2 styles at once without MoMS, and you can't charge through allies squares and then full attack without 2 different styles. Pummeling Charge lets you move and full attack, but you need Dragon Style to charge through your allies squares. Not the only way to build that kind of character, but it does do something important.
Well, sounds like that build looks great for what it does, but doesn't translate well to grappling. Anybody know if you can make a grapple attempt at the end of a charge? If so, picking up Dragon style may be the worthwhile option for the Tetori.
I run a tetori monk in PFS as a debuffer: I hold things down while my friends kill them. I only get to the "tie up" phase about 50-60% of the time. (In our area, we've had a couple of people play tetoris: they have been really, really effective.)...
And other stuff
Another good point on the Barbarian front being a no-go. Drag is awesome as you've described, especially if you drag an enemy into a hazard.
On the front of using intimidation, I've looked into such things, however a monk is fairly MAD, and with a dumped charisma, it'd be a bit unreliable, but it is a free action. I could put a half-elf's skill focus into intimidate though.
Dragon style allows ignoring the difficult terrain issue, which means after a while I could stop investing in acrobatics unless I want to use it to move through threatened squares, and so put points into intimidate.
Intimidate would go well with a cruel weapon enchantment. That'd make for an enemy that is grappled, shaken and sickened.
Hmm... settling out on feats other than the ones the Tetori gets just from levelling up:
Level 1: Dodge (for survivability)
Half-Elf: Skill Focus Intimidate
Level 3: Enforcer
Level 5: Power Attack
Level 7: Improved Drag
Level 9: Dragon Style
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What purpose does the Master of Many Styles serve? Delaying Pummelling Charge by 2 levels with multiclassing seems to be rather counter-intuitive.
The nice thing about monks and brawlers are the bonus feats, what style complements the Tetori? Whether it's to improve grappling or provide some other option. Snake, Mantis or Dragon styles all look decent.
Everything Gregory Connolly says.
Because you can't use 2 styles at once without MoMS, and you can't charge through allies squares and then full attack without 2 different styles. Pummeling Charge lets you move and full attack, but you need Dragon Style to charge through your allies squares. Not the only way to build that kind of character, but it does do something important.
Defiantly not the only way to build that type of Character...I mean Druids can do stuff like that...If your looking for a grappler maybe druid/monk might be an answer.
As far as other styles go I defiantly like Mantis style if I'm focusing on Stunning fist as one of my main 3 combat ticks. (When I make a character I tend to not make 1 trick ponies. They focus on doing 1 thing super good...then have a few smaller aces incase things go bad.)
For snake style I have a grapple monstrosity that is pretty nasty. You would have to resort to a different Alchemist Archetype as Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal. So its DPR goes down slightly with -2d6 sneak attack. But you really don't loose anything else...you gain some bombs to kill swarms and do fire damage with which is kind of nicelittle ace for PFS. Your gear will be focused strickly on upping your grapple, strength, and dex (for more AoO).
1HD Slayer 1: Power attack and Improved Grapple
2HD Slayer 1/MoMS Monk 1: Snake style
3HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2: Snake Fang, Combat reflexes
4HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2/ Vivisectionist Alchemist 1: Sneak attack 1d6
5HD Slayer 1/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 2: Monastic Legacy, Discovery-Tentacle
6HD Slayer 1/ monk 2/ Alchemist 3: Sneak attack 2d6
7HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3: Weapon focus Tentacle, Improved Natural attack Tentacle
8HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3/ Strangler Brawler 1: Sneak attack 3d6
9HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 3/ Brawler 2: Feral combat training, Greater grapple, Sneak attack 4d6
10HD Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 4/ Brawler 2: Discovery Tumor Familiar King Crab (+2 Grapple)
11HD- Slayer 2/ Monk 2/ Alchemist 4/ Brawler 3: Potion glutton, +1 Grapple
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What purpose does the Master of Many Styles serve? Delaying Pummelling Charge by 2 levels with multiclassing seems to be rather counter-intuitive.
The nice thing about monks and brawlers are the bonus feats, what style complements the Tetori? Whether it's to improve grappling or provide some other option. Snake, Mantis or Dragon styles all look decent.Everything Gregory Connolly says.
Because you can't use 2 styles at once without MoMS, and you can't charge through allies squares and then full attack without 2 different styles. Pummeling Charge lets you move and full attack, but you need Dragon Style to charge through your allies squares. Not the only way to build that kind of character, but it does do something important.Defiantly not the only way to build that type of Character...I mean Druids can do stuff like that...If your looking for a grappler maybe druid/monk might be an answer.
As far as other styles go I defiantly like Mantis style if I'm focusing on Stunning fist as one of my main 3 combat ticks. (When I make a character I tend to not make 1 trick ponies. They focus on doing 1 thing super good...then have a few smaller aces incase things go bad.)
For snake style I have a grapple monstrosity that is pretty nasty. You would have to resort to a different Alchemist Archetype as Vivisectionist isn't PFS legal. So its DPR goes down slightly with -2d6 sneak attack. But you really don't loose anything else...you gain some bombs to kill swarms and do fire damage with which is kind of nicelittle ace for PFS. Your gear will be focused strickly on upping your grapple, strength, and dex (for more AoO).
** spoiler omitted **...
I already have a druid and an alchemist, so I'm not looking to multiclass/dip into either of those classes.
if movement is important. have a look at 5 levels of martial artist monk (immune to fatigue) then add barbarian levels and rage your way to glory without being fatigued afterward.
normal monk speed increase with level, then add any rage power to increase speed even more!
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I already have a druid and an alchemist, so I'm not looking to multiclass/dip into either of those classes.
Ahh sorry I didn't know that they all play exactly the same and going near them is like dealing with a leaper that has Ebola.
But putting that aside I wish you luck finding the class that suits your vision.
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Race: Half Elf
Class: Tetori
STR 18, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 9, WIS 14, CHA 7
Level 1: Stunning Fist, Improved Grapple, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Dodge
Level 2: Stunning Pin
Level 3: Dragon Style
Level 4: Increase INT to 10
Level 5: Enforcer
Level 6: Greater Grapple
Level 7: Power Attack
Level 8: Strength to 19
Level 9: Improved Drag
Favored Class bonus, Elf, +1 to move speed each.
Think I've got the bones of the character.
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I do recommend Dragon style and Horn of the Criosphinx over power attack on unarmed monks/brawlers unless power attack is a pre-req. The reason I ask is:
Is improved drag worth it? I feel drag and bull rush sometimes doesn't net more then a 5 foot move. But with drag it has to be backwards draging them thru a square you already occupied. Which means you yourself will go into the hazards. I'd hate to see you drag something thru a hazard and you wind up just as bad as they are.
Would not Intimidating Prowess help your Intimidate side strategy be better? That 7 cha really eats at your Intimidate check?
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I do recommend Dragon style and Horn of the Criosphinx over power attack on unarmed monks/brawlers unless power attack is a pre-req. The reason I ask is:
Is improved drag worth it? I feel drag and bull rush sometimes doesn't net more then a 5 foot move. But with drag it has to be backwards draging them thru a square you already occupied. Which means you yourself will go into the hazards. I'd hate to see you drag something thru a hazard and you wind up just as bad as they are.Would not Intimidating Prowess help your Intimidate side strategy be better? That 7 cha really eats at your Intimidate check?
I just wasn't sure what to do with the feats so I figured going for improved drag would be good. If I get the Criosphinx feat though (I'll have to double check that it's PFS legal), I think that's a better alternative.
The reason I took Skill-Focus Intimidate was because Half-Elves get that feat for free. However, going with the Criosphinx feat, and abandoning Power Attack and Improved drag leaves me with another free feat, so I could stick Intimidating Prowess in there as well.