Hello all. I just wanted to get a community consensus on their favorite class to build everyone's favorite rapier wielding, charismatic, dashing hero: The Swashbuckler! Be it Zorro, D'artagnan, The Count of Monte Cristo, (really any character created by Alexandre Dumas), etc., I've always found these dexterous and charismatic Rogues to be incredibly fun to play.
Now, I'm not talking Optimization. I want to know what class all of you have found the most fun to play while trying to emulate this particular iconic role.
In the past, I would always multiclass with Rogue and Fighter, but with the advent of Archetypes and all the different Class options that Pathfinder has provided us with over (not the least of which being the recently added Swashbuckler class itself).
So, what do you all think? The Swashbuckler? Th Daring Champion Cavalier? Free Hand Fighter? Bard? Something off the wall? I'd really like to hear what you all have to say.
I think people will say the Daring Champion is better. He gives up a lot (no charging, etc). He doesn't get Piercing Grace yet since the book isn't out yet.
Uh.. Does it count as a Swashbuckler if the character only dips one level in that class and then goes Urban Barbarian all the way?
Because that's probably the best swashbuckling character so far.
I see a proper Swashbuckler as being charismatic enough to act as the party face. As such I think the Daring Champion Cavalier edges out the Urban Barb in terms of which is a better chassis for a Swashbuckler.
I think people will say the Daring Champion is better. He gives up a lot (no charging, etc). He doesn't get Piercing Grace yet since the book isn't out yet.
That is the one I'll be trying out next myself in our group's next campaign. (We're running Rise of the Runelords for the first time, I'm kinda stoked.)
Uh.. Does it count as a Swashbuckler if the character only dips one level in that class and then goes Urban Barbarian all the way?
Because that's probably the best swashbuckling character so far.
That totally counts! As long as you think it's fun to play, that's all that matters.
Archaeologist Bard is really good at doing this stuff too.
I see a proper Swashbuckler as being charismatic enough to act as the party face. As such I think the Daring Champion Cavalier edges out the Urban Barb in terms of which is a better chassis for a Swashbuckler.
Well, with a single dip in Swashbuckler (or Daring Champion Cavalier), the Barbarian has a good reason to increase Cha. And because of Superstition, he doesn't need Wis as badly. Pounce also makes them very mobile (like Swashbucklers should be, instead of the "yet-another-variation-of-stand-still-or-suck-syndrome" that they turned out to be.
If you're willing to use an spell-casting class, then Dervish Dancer Bard is better. SBs really aren't very good at buckle-swashing.
I see a proper Swashbuckler as being charismatic enough to act as the party face. As such I think the Daring Champion Cavalier edges out the Urban Barb in terms of which is a better chassis for a Swashbuckler.Well, with a single dip in Swashbuckler (or Daring Champion Cavalier), the Barbarian has a good reason to increase Cha. And because of Superstition, he doesn't need Wis as badly. Pounce also makes them very mobile (like Swashbucklers should be, instead of the "yet-another-variation-of-stand-still-or-suck-syndrome" that they turned out to be.
If you're willing to use an spell-casting class, then Dervish Dancer Bard is better. SBs really aren't very good at buckle-swashing.
I agree, the Swashbuckler sucks, but the Daring Champion is pretty great. The Cockatrice variant in particular oozes flavor and works very well mechanically.
I agree, the Swashbuckler sucks, but the Daring Champion is pretty great. The Cockatrice variant in particular oozes flavor and works very well mechanically.I see a proper Swashbuckler as being charismatic enough to act as the party face. As such I think the Daring Champion Cavalier edges out the Urban Barb in terms of which is a better chassis for a Swashbuckler.Well, with a single dip in Swashbuckler (or Daring Champion Cavalier), the Barbarian has a good reason to increase Cha. And because of Superstition, he doesn't need Wis as badly. Pounce also makes them very mobile (like Swashbucklers should be, instead of the "yet-another-variation-of-stand-still-or-suck-syndrome" that they turned out to be.
If you're willing to use an spell-casting class, then Dervish Dancer Bard is better. SBs really aren't very good at buckle-swashing.
Yeah, the Swashbuckler is only going to be as fun to play if you aren't focusing on being really effective. To be effective you are going to be doing little more than moving into range, then charge, parry as much as you can, full round attack, rinse and repeat.
The Daring Champion on the other hand will have options(I almost consider them as kind of a bard style class with more tanking ability). My only issue with the class is that I can't seem to find an Order that fits just right. (Flames and Dragon work fairly well)
Warblade
good standard action attacks unshackles you from full-round actions
mobility options that get you around the battlefield
defensive tricks beyond just high AC
and when you really need to, you can still wreck face with a full attack
I was thinking specifically Pathfinder material, but the Warblade was in my top 5 favorite classes to play in 3.5. Off Topic: If you haven't checked out Path of War from Dreamscarred Press, you really should. Any Book of the Nine Swords fan will dig it.
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Core Pathfinder...
Gonna say Bard.
Non-core Pathfinder...
Gonna say Bard (or Lemmy's suggestion).
3PP Pathfinder...
Something from Path of War or Bard.
I'll think about it some more.
wow is Swashbuckler really that bad?
I just started playing one in my friends campaign and I am enjoying it so far im using the Inspired Blade Archetype, and if you saw my DPR calculation request it can be pretty powerful at later levels on a full attack.
*shrug* to each his own i guess
It's not that it's bad (It isn't very good, though), but it fails to live up to it class description.
Try to "dart in and out of the fray, wearing down opponents with lunges and feints", and you'll see how poorly it performs. SBs are barely more agile than a Fighter with Weapon Finesse. It's the biggest case of "wasted opportunity" in Pathfinder so far.
Swashbuckler is little more than a dip class. Get 1~3 levels in the class and then forget it ever existed.
For everything everyone says about Daring Champion, they hurt until level 4 when most of their abilities finally come online. Played both, the swashbuckler was far more fun early on but the Daring Champion got multitudes better once it hit level 4. For me at least, anything low level that stays low level I prefer regular swashbuckler. If it is long term, I'd go daring champion.
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The best thing pure swash has to offer is the free improved critical with SWT. That really only saves you four levels or a keen weapon though.
Inspired Blade is awesome for a one level dip due to qualifying for fencing grace at level one.
Whirling Dervish is great for anyone who wants to be dex based with an odd weapon like morning stars, tridents, heavy picks, or unarmed strikes.
I have a swashbuckler with a dervish dancing bard dip and it does... an ok job of it. The dervish dancing bard added so much mobility I just recently started a dervish dancing bard that might dip swashbuckler.
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So what would you change/add to swashbuckler that would get to where you want to be?
besides making it have a good fort save?
Let's see... Off the top of my head:
Better/Simpler Class Feature:
- Give them Weapon Finesse instead of "Swashbuckler Finesse". It would make things simpler and allow SBs to use a greater variety of weapons.
- Remove Precise Strike and give them Dex to damage for free at 3rd level or something.
- Splitting Evasive into an scaling class feature: get Uncanny Dodge at 3rd level, Evasion at 7th level and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 11th level. No Panache required. (It's more fun if the ability scales with the character, instead of getting it all out of nowhere. And there is really no reason for it to require Panache).
- Panache total is equal to 1 + Cha modifier (minimum 1). This way SBs with Cha 12 have an advantage over SBs with Cha 08.
Good mobility:
- He could spend Panache to be able to move as a swift action Or... I don't know, if he hits someone, he can make an additional attack as a swift action. That way, if the character moves he's still a threat.
Real bonuses to iconic skills (instead of the awful "spend 1 Panache for 1d6 and hope you don't roll a 1 or 2" thing):
- A Swashbuckler adds half his level to Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Escape Artist and Ride. By spending 1 point of panache he can double this bonus on his next skill check.
EDIT: Actually, the house-rule I use is that SBs can add their Cha modifier to all Dex-based skill checks (except Stealth) and they can spent 1 Panache to add a bonus equal to their SB level to their next Dex or Cha-based skill check (except Stealth and UMD)
- Maybe add Cha to Initiative instead of the boring static number.
Decent saves
- Good Fort (as you already mentioned)
- Remove Charmed Life (which conflicts with his other abilities, since they require swift actions) and replacing it with a feat that allows the character to use Cha instead of Wis on will saves (and remove the 2~3 options that do that in pointlessly situational and restrictive ways).
Other ideas were mentioned during the playtest. But most of the feedback was ignored. So we ended up with the Fighter-with-Weapon-Finesse class and the exercise in bad design that is Slashing Grace.
also (not sure who has access to it) but does the new everyman gaming stuff change anyones opinion on standard swash
Can't comment. I don't know what that is.
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But most of the feedback was ignored.
This is how Paizo playtests work. The most honest playtest Paizo has had since its Pathfinder run was Pathfinder itself.
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But most of the feedback was ignored.This is how Paizo playtests work. The most honest playtest Paizo has had since its Pathfinder run was Pathfinder itself.
I remeber someone suggested to get cha to saves for swashbuckler, devs said that would be totally broken, I somehow agreed but still tought they should have better saves.
Then they cha to saves to oracles trough devine protection.
I really do not understand the logic at all.
But most of the feedback was ignored.This is how Paizo playtests work. The most honest playtest Paizo has had since its Pathfinder run was Pathfinder itself.
Yeah, during playtests the dev team sometimes comes across as being more interested in getting validation and/or building up hype for the upcoming release than in actually finding and fixing issues. Though I suppose we'll have to wait and see how the final version of Occult Adventures turns out to see if that's continuing: that playtest had a fair amount of "I'll look into this/think about the issues you raised." Which might mean they're actually doing that, or it might just be a polite way of saying "Nothing is changing, so shut up."
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Only casters get to have nice things, you silly, silly man.
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Yeah, during playtests the dev team sometimes comes across as being more interested in getting validation and/or building up hype for the upcoming release than in actually finding and fixing issues. Though I suppose we'll have to wait and see how the final version of Occult Adventures turns out to see if that's continuing: that playtest had a fair amount of "I'll look into this/think about the issues you raised." Which might mean they're actually doing that, or it might just be a polite way of saying "Nothing is changing, so shut up."But most of the feedback was ignored.This is how Paizo playtests work. The most honest playtest Paizo has had since its Pathfinder run was Pathfinder itself.
There is also a large difference in the amount of feedback from class to class. For example, Mark's classes in the OA playtest went through much more changes than Jason's.
There is also a large difference in the amount of feedback from class to class. For example, Mark's classes in the OA playtest went through much more changes than Jason's.
Probably because Kineticist and Medium are the only new classes. The others are rehashes of existing stuff... And not particularly good rehashes at that.
And even the Kineticist I fear will be ruined by those awful Burn mechanics.
I think if we're looking at single class choices the Daring Champion can easily be considered a direct upgrade to the actual Swashbuckler in most important ways. I.E. Saves, damage output, etc...
I am a forever DM so I have only experience from making npcs, and from that I have no complaints about the swashbuckler, or daring champion or free hand fighter. They all kind of do the same thing and it really just comes down to personal taste when making npcs.
As for my players, they have tried swashbuckler and loved it. Charmed life became a group favorite. As for daring champion or free hand fighter, I have never noticed a player not having fun playing those archetypes. I asked one of my players before posting this why she went swashbuckler over free hand fighter and she said because it sounded cooler.
To people poo pooing on this class, I really have to ask why? What is so bad about these classes, I have never had a problem. Our current group even has a master summoner and a wizard (using treatmonks guide). The swashbuckler has still contributed in every encounter both social and combat.
Binder and Warlock are new?Probably because Kineticist and Medium are the only new classes. The others are rehashes of existing stuff... And not particularly good rehashes at that.
And even the Kineticist I fear will be ruined by those awful Burn mechanics.
To Pathfinder? Yes.
The other classes are slightly different versions of already existing Pathfinder classes.
Personally I think Swashbuckler is potentially worth 11 levels for three things, all of which happen to need 11 levels exactly: Subtle Blade, Evasive, and of course, Signature Deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte). Being able to attempt a parry against every attack against you, ever round, is just so cool. Imagine fighting another Swashbuckler with that...
I threw together a rough build, a literal Blind Swordsman. A couple things about it:
1. It's not exactly fully optimized as the concept requires all Blind Fighting feats to function fully.
2. It was built with a high level in mind, so some feats would need to be reshuffled in order to make it playable at lower levels.
3. The domain selected is iffy and subject to DM approval.
It also has an Inquisitor dip for Solo Tactics (Intercept Charge, Coordinated Charge, Paired Opportunists) and to qualify for Divine Protection. With that, the saves and "limited mobility of non-pouncers" issues are mitigated if not solved; being able to turn an ally or enemy charge into battlefield repositioning for yourself is pretty awesome, but I still am unclear as to whether Intercept Charge precludes the use of a full attack after use.
Blind Swordsman, Inquisitor 4/Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 12
I'm playing a gestalt SB (inspired blade)/Inquisitor (vanilla)
So far it has been extremely fun.
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Guess I would just play a slayer for a swashbuckler, get a combat style focused on rapiers or finesse weapons, grab a few rogue talents like unwitting ally, powerful sneak with favored terrain urban, so can potentially hide, sneak attack and one decisive blow (assassinate) talent.
Works fine, don't need to keep track of weird mechanics, got a full bab, good fort and reflex.
Swash Suggestions
I think the Medium's Cricket spirit is a great way to go for a truly mobile character. I don't know if the math works out right but the intention to make Spring Attack a replacement for full attacking is a great idea.
Personally I think Swashbuckler is potentially worth 11 levels for three things, all of which happen to need 11 levels exactly: Subtle Blade, Evasive, and of course, Signature Deed (Opportune Parry and Riposte).Of course, there is the fact that Swashbucklers don't qualify for Signature Deed RAW.
I thought it was in there somewhere that Swashbuckler's qualify for Gunslinger/grit things... especially as Precise Strike specifically calls out that you can't use Signature Deed only on that one particular ability.
Everytime I read topics like this, I understand more and more how bad Swashbuckler is. The way it's written, the way it plays, just everything.
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They really aren't that bad overall. They just have the same problem as all other martials with the dependence on full attacking, and they also have two poor saves with no decent tools to raise them.
I really wish they would have given swashbucklers a way to make vital strike more useful. One telling lunge is the trademark of a swashbuckler finishing move, and would make them more mobile as well.
They really aren't that bad overall. They just have the same problem as all other martials with the dependence on full attacking, and they also have two poor saves with no decent tools to raise them.
I really wish they would have given swashbucklers a way to make vital strike more useful. One telling lunge is the trademark of a swashbuckler finishing move, and would make them more mobile as well.
Well... They about on par with other martials...
My martial tier list would be:
1- Bloodrager/Barbarian/Paladin
2- Ranger/Slayer
3- Brawler/Swashbuckler/Gunslinger
4- Cavalier/Fighter
The difference between tiers is pretty small, though.
My grip with the SB is is not that it's a weak class, but that it could have been something cool and unique, but it's just more of the same...