So I want to make a new guy for upcoming campaign that will be either Cleric or Oracle and who does not want to engage in combat directly but throw spells or class features till he absolutely can't. Good saves, AC, utility, and overall defense are welcome bonuses as are capacity to buff and protect the party- meaning I don't have to necessarily attack the enemy with save or suck or blast. I don't mind not being the rock star, splashy character- just want to be handy and effective.
Rules and notes:
-22(sic) point buy
-any and all published Paizo and 3rd party stuff if approved by gm
-start at 1st level and retire at about 14th, so obviously we want the build to be strong throughout if we can.
-the other characters, all unknown to me now, are usually well built (if that matters) and probably will be party of three or four players.
-the GM likes to throw nasty, tough fights at us but we seldom have more than 2/day.
-specific magic items are generally assumed to be available at the bigger cities we come across. GM seems neither stingy nor generous with treasure.
-alignment is not a huge deal, but evil would be a little tricky. Undead route is completely out.
Archetypes of either class are fine. (I've looked into Contemplative Cleric and nearly cried with disappointment at what they give up.)
I don't need a powerhouse crazy, but I do need someone effective and able to survive a fairly hostile world.
Although general thoughts are welcome, the more detail and build info the better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Go Shaman. It's a full caster as well, but you get hexes, and I feel that those are a better substitute for spells then the other classes have to offer.
If that's not an option, I'd say evangelist cleric, bardic song is nice and again, something to do besides spells.
For any of them, wear heavy armor once it's available. If you're not making attack rolls there's really no penalty to it for these three classes.
Eccelesitheurge cleric. Sure, you suck at hand to hand combat, but always having the right spell 1/day would be perfect in a campaign with no more than 2 fights per day. I recommend making sure to get the trickery domain to mitigate your AC; going with Sivanah as your deity and aiming for the Veiled Illusionist PrC is an option.
Hexes are the opposite - great if you might run out of spells, not worth it in your game. The shaman is not what you want.
As for versatility, a Mnemonic Vestment goes a long way to putting Oracle on par with Cleric. You could argue it even makes the oracle superior.
My thoughts are that if you expect to be casting every round, oracle is probably better, because it's "spammier" - more spells per day, and it avoids the "X spell would be perfect right now but I already used the only one I had prepared." Yeah you could use a Pearl of Power, but then that's a wasted round.
Generally speaking the cleric will make a better generalist and the oracle will make a better specialist.
Cleric has the Evangelist archetype which is one of if not the best buffing character type.
Oracle can be just about anything but generally will have one shtick they are good at. Common choices are an animal companion, Color Spray, knowledge, movement, and blasting.
Shaman may actually be what you are looking for, because they can hex like a Witch after level one and play like other divine casters mostly.
I actually like the Druid spell list the best for a pure caster; I feel like they get better options for AoE debuffs than the religious casters do. I'm not familiar with the Shaman list so I can't judge on that.
I'd go Oracle - pick Wrecker or some other curse which would suck in combat - but is mostly just handy if he'd be avoiding melee anyway.
Focus on enchantment spells etc. (murderous command etc)
How about wrecker/burned dual cursed oracle? And then use Oracle's burden a lot. That will ruin that orc warlord's day.
Anyway, the traditional wisdom is that oracles specialize better than clerics, while clerics can do a multitasked build better (such as the famous reach cleric).
But shaman is certainly an option.
Thanks for the insightful replies.
I'll have to look into Shaman thematically and mechanically. And Eccelesitheurge cleric.
I absolutely love Druids, but I'm trying to focus my divine caster to Cleric or Oracle.
EDIT = What the heck is a Eccelesitheurge cleric? Google failed me.
Thanks for the insightful replies.
I'll have to look into Shaman thematically and mechanically. And Eccelesitheurge cleric.
I absolutely love Druids, but I'm trying to focus my divine caster to Cleric or Oracle.
EDIT = What the heck is a Eccelesitheurge cleric? Google failed me.
I honestly feel it's not worth going into. You give up a lot of stuff to be able to prep domain spells as normal spells and you get a bonded item.
A bonded item with a spellbook equal to the entire cleric list plus a couple of domains. And you get to take granted powers from one domain and spells from another
No, you don't do melee. An eccelesitheurge is a caster cleric.
The Ecclessitheurge is great for stealing the spell list from a domain that has really sucky domain powers but incredible spells (read: Caves).
This.Thanks for the insightful replies.
I'll have to look into Shaman thematically and mechanically. And Eccelesitheurge cleric.
I absolutely love Druids, but I'm trying to focus my divine caster to Cleric or Oracle.
EDIT = What the heck is a Eccelesitheurge cleric? Google failed me.
now those are wonderful trade-offs for my ideas. Thanks.
OP: You need to set your goalposts as to what "effective" means.
Of course that's somewhat subjective, but the goal is to be able to buff, debuff, or otherwise be a boon to the party in combat.
Out of combat there's general utility with healing and restoring somewhere in between.
[new paragraph]
You all have tossed in ideas that were new to me- thanks all. Now please don't be shy about any builds,feats, traits, or even weird tricks. Wrecker curse for Oracle looks like a good fit. Any reason to go dual cursed?
|
Yes, so that you can force 1 creature per round save twice against your save or sucks and take the worst, ie, greater forbid action, hold person..lunar mystery touch of the moon inflict option. Also can negate crit hits on allies "oh monster crit? Please reroll that". Do not take dual cursed if your mystery spell you are using to control will be replaced by dual cursed spell list. Ie. Heavens oracle and their colourspray, unless you will get it back (prc into veiled illusionist),
Weird tricks, you say? I'm working on a life oracle with super-charged Channel Energy - you can channel at 150% effectiveness by using your FCB (must be either aasimar, elf, or half-elf I believe.) Add a phylactery of positive channeling. If you want to go really crazy, take Fey Foundling.
I recently calculated that build can heal itself for 165 HP/round at level 10, while meanwhile healing all party members 105 HP/round, including giving them up to 10 temporary HP when you heal them past full.
Then you can throw on rider effects like Liberation Channel (Freedom of Movement for the whole party) or Clarifying Channel (allow the whole party a new save vs charm or compulsion effects with a bonus equal to your Cha.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
More weird tricks: take Eldritch Heritage (arcane) for a familiar, take Improved Familiar for something that can use wands, and then have it spam Ill Omen before all your save-or-sucks. No save, they have to roll twice, and you don't even need to go Dual-Cursed and use an immediate action to do it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Be a grippli. Take the Agile Tongue feat that lets you deliver touch attacks at reach and you can buff or debuff by licking people.
Inner Sea Gods gives many clerics of many deities extra spells on their spell lists. Don't forget them.
An Cleric, as a prepared caster, is a million times better -- not just because versatility, but because they don't lose casting speed when applying Metamagic.
Gotta say that Shaman Speaker for the Past is really f#&#ing sweet tho.
Brainfart, meant to say Cleric.
Other cleric goodies;
- Able to move at full speed with medium armor with a religion feat.
- Guided motherfricking Hand. All the touch attacks.
|
Brainfart, meant to say Cleric.
Other cleric goodies;
- Able to move at full speed with medium armor with a religion feat.
- Guided motherfricking Hand. All the touch attacks.
If you can consistently make the concentration checks for casting with those, sure, but otherwise I fail to see touch attacks as overly significant.
Brainfart, meant to say Cleric.
Other cleric goodies;
- Able to move at full speed with medium armor with a religion feat.
- Guided motherfricking Hand. All the touch attacks.
While Guided Hand is definitely a great feat, I don't see what it has to do with touch attacks? You only get your wisdom bonus for your favored weapon; while this could be unarmed strike, now it's riding a regular attack and doesn't hit touch ac anymore.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Three words: Spirit Guide Oracle
The ability to switch to a new set of spirit spells as spells known is very powerful. Furthermore, there are rarely more than 2-3 revelations that are actually worth picking in a mystery.
But ultimately, it comes down to whether you prefer spontaneous or prepared casting. I for one vastly prefer spontaneous casting since I hate having had the right option but not having picked it in the morning. And to be honest, when I play prepared casters, I almost always have a standard set of prepared spells anyway.
Clerics have an oft-overlooked class feature, that the other classes can't match: they're religious authority figures.
Support from a church or pious population is nothing to sneer at, for instance when you want scrolls without taking the feat to make them yourself.
|
I'd say, outside of Level 1, the Oracle is just better all around, though with specific builds one or the other can be slightly better.
The largest advantage that the Cleric has over the Oracle is the ability to swap out spells daily, BUT, the kicker to that is that the Cleric Spell List is on of the smaller spell lists in the game and really doesn't have a great deal of variety.
On the other hand, there are a few ways to get more spells for your Oracle, as well as ways to get other Classes spells, that the Cleric lacks entirely. Because an Oracle doesn't have to worry about needing to have a certain number of a specific spell for the day (outside of their daily limits), they are far superior in that regard.
Both Classes can and should rely heavily on scroll and wands, because they share the same list with so many spells you don't really (generally) want to waste a slot on, but would be very handy in those rare occasions that it's needed.
The general idea was that the Oracle would be to the Cleric what the Sorcerer is to the Wizard, but the biggest difference is that the Cleric and Wizard Spell Lists are just far too different. The Wizard list is filled with many great and good options, where the Cleric List is much, much smaller, and doesn't offer a great deal of variety. So you will often seen most clerics, regardless of their faith/build/concept with very similar Spells prepped. Not always, but generally. Because there are only a few good options that you would want on a daily basis.
Where the Cleric would pull ahead is if they know what to expect for the day, but that's generally not allowed to happen without using higher level resources like Divination, or on the more uncommon off screen days travelling to ___________. But even then, Wands and Scrolls can cover that pretty easily most of the time.
So, assuming a well built Oracle and a well built Cleric, (outside of just level 1 play), with all other things being equal, Oracle is just better outside of a few niche things, (and even then it's close).
Domain spontaneous casting.
|
|
For those claiming oracle is better at level 5 when you're hit with mummy rot a million miles from civilization tell me how much better it is to be an oracle. Levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17 the cleric is strictly better. It is merely better since you need raise dead and all the remove X spells on your list.
Most likely the Cleric is going to be in the exact same situation as the Oracle, (which is to say not much use). It takes both spell prepped, and in this case, Scrolls and Wands are iffy, because it needs at least 3 Caster Level checks of 15+ on the dice. Just because the Cleric CAN have the spells needed doesn't actually mean they do, (or are likely to on any random adventuring day), and in this case, if they don't have BOTH Remove Disease and Remove Curse, they cant help get rid of Mummy Rot.
Both the Oracle and the Cleric have the same chance to heal (HP) a character affected, and because of the Con drop, being able to prep those spells tomorrow might very well be too late.
Another thing to consider is, outside of with Domains, a 5th Level Cleric, with Bonus spells, would have to use all (or very close too all) of their highest level spell slots for a single chance to affect Mummy Rot.
Under the best circumstances (the Cleric devoted everything just to this one possibility), that means they basically have a 25% chance of Removing Mummy Rot from 1 person by using all their 3rd level spells.
Without Scrolls and Wands, or other players buying their own potions, (um, um), the (base) Oracle ha 0%. But, as the Cleric would probably need to have some Metagame knowledge, the Oracle should also have that knowledge (if all things are equal), and be able to pick up some scrolls, putting them on equal footing with the Cleric prepping those spells.
Are you kidding me domains are FAR more powerful than most revelations.
"Most" revelations are irrelevant, the revelations that are worth taking can be wildly powerful. For just a taste, check out this doozy:
Phantom Touch (Su): As a standard action, you can perform a melee touch attack that causes a living creature to become shaken. This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your oracle level (minimum 1 round). You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. At 5th level, the target instead becomes frightened, and at 7th level, the target becomes panicked.
|
|
Just because the Cleric CAN have the spells needed doesn't actually mean they do, (or are likely to on any random adventuring day), and in this case, if they don't have BOTH Remove Disease and Remove Curse, they cant help get rid of Mummy Rot.Mummy rot lasts for forever unless cured. The cleric can attempt to remove it every day.
While true, it also does a d6 Con and a d6 Cha damage, and prevents Healing, so yes, technically the Cleric can try again every day, like you said, they are out in the wilderness billion miles from civilization. That a long time to go without healing AND a rapidly score Con score.
Another thing to consider is, outside of with Domains, a 5th Level Cleric, with Bonus spells, would have to use all (or very close too all) of their highest level spell slots for a single chance to affect Mummy Rot.
Something an oracle can't even do unless he cripples his character by level 7.
Like I said, technically, yes a Cleric can, under the best circumstances attempt it, though it's very unlikely that they could succeed, while an Oracle can not. Doesn't actually help the Cleric much though, as they probably are not going to succeed on all the rolls they need to in an amount of time that it would matter.
Utilizing scrolls, however, which is the most likely case for both anyway, (Cleric would have to have these spells prepped and will need to burn through all of their 3rd level slots for a single chance), they are both on equal footing. In other words, the Cleric is better at this, but it's miniscule at best.
I'm a huge Cleric fan, so I'd actually like the Cleric to be better at things like this, but it just isn't. That being said, I doubt either of us is going to convince the other to change their mind, so I'm thinking agree to disagree. :)
If the oracle contracts it he might not be able to cast third level spells after one minute ignoring that he wouldn't even have it.
That is not how ability damage works.
This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
Besides, why are we spending so long discussing such a fringe scenario (contracting mummy rot when you are days away from civilization)? That is relevant in about 0.01% of games. And an oracle with a couple Mnemonic Vestments can do it just about as well as the cleric anyway.
Because at level 6 mnemonic vestments are the majority of your wealth and scrolls are expensive. It's also not just about that it's about the levels. The oracle simply can't raise anyone at level 9. The odd levels (which are actually about half of the game) the cleric can simply do things the oracle cannot possibly do.
Yeah but 90% of the time you'll be near a settlement where you can pay someone to cast Raise Dead (or whatever other spell.) The difference between 5000 gp and 5450 gp is not that much.
Thanks everyone for the input- you've given me a lot to think about.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, if you decide to go Oracle there is this:
This Feat is Absurdly Good for Oracles
I can't say it will make you a more effective caster than a Cleric, but it does make the Oracle have stupid high saving throws.
If your a Cleric and maintain a decent charisma score it's also nice.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
With the specific constraints mentioned, especially the lack of multiple encounters a day, I'd have to say cleric. Oracles are much better in endurance contests thanks to more spells per level for the most part. If the cleric doesn't have to budget for many encounters, the number of spells isn't as big of a deal.